Sin daily?

[Karlon]

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. - Matthew 5:48

Anyone who says perfection is impossible is content in producing more sin.

I'm not saying that it isn't a process, you don't just suddenly stop sinning, but to think that perfection is impossible, disregards scripture and makes you comfortable with your imperfection so you stop striving for it.

matthew 5:48 is the 1st verse i ever read in the Bible that lead me to start memorizing verses. i don't assent to your 2nd statement. that's saying all persons who believe perfection is impossible WILL commit more sin. no, not true. also, your 3rd statement i disagree with. perfection is impossible, totally. what God is saying in that verse is be the best you can be while pursuing the Christian life. grow to your spiritual best. yes, strive for perfection because that's how you'll reach your best behavior. is anyone perfect? if so, when was someone perfect & presently, who is perfect?

 

[Bible_Locket]

What is the meaning of perfection in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

What is the meaning of perfection in the Bible? What does the Bible mean when it says something is perfect?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[OMC]

matthew 5:48 is the 1st verse i ever read in the Bible that lead me to start memorizing verses. i don't assent to your 2nd statement. that's saying all persons who believe perfection is impossible WILL commit more sin. no, not true. also, your 3rd statement i disagree with. perfection is impossible, totally. what God is saying in that verse is be the best you can be while pursuing the Christian life. grow to your spiritual best. yes, strive for perfection because that's how you'll reach your best behavior. is anyone perfect? if so, when was someone perfect & presently, who is perfect?

Perfection is the mature, Spirit‑formed life where faith produces love, love fulfills the law, and the believer becomes what God intended from the beginning.

 

[wattie]

Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. - Matthew 5:48

Anyone who says perfection is impossible is content in producing more sin.

I'm not saying that it isn't a process, you don't just suddenly stop sinning, but to think that perfection is impossible, disregards scripture and makes you comfortable with your imperfection so you stop striving for it.

Have a look at the 'perfect tense' in grammar.

Its not referring to being without blemish, but something that has been completed, mature.

That's what scripture is referring to, going onto maturity and completeness in the faith.

 

[tourist]

Been doing some reading lately on christian doctrine and I keep running in to people saying it's normal to sin daily and it's not possible to stop living in sin. It's like they are saying there's no hope to be free from living in sin and they have just accepted that this is normal.

What sects are teaching this exactly, does anybody know?

It is certainly not normal to sin every day. You can stop living in sin by inviting the Holy Spirit to comfort and guide you in the life-long repentance process.

 

[tourist]

What is sin?

Bad stuff.

 

[Delvianna]

matthew 5:48 is the 1st verse i ever read in the Bible that lead me to start memorizing verses. i don't assent to your 2nd statement. that's saying all persons who believe perfection is impossible WILL commit more sin. no, not true. also, your 3rd statement i disagree with. perfection is impossible, totally. what God is saying in that verse is be the best you can be while pursuing the Christian life. grow to your spiritual best. yes, strive for perfection because that's how you'll reach your best behavior. is anyone perfect? if so, when was someone perfect & presently, who is perfect?

So you think that if someone believes they cannot be perfect, they at the same time can be perfect?

If you think as an artist, you cannot get better than you already are, you're saying you would attempt to get better anyway? That's cognitive dissonance. Psychologically, no one does that. You keep the status quo.

 

[Karlon]

Perfection is the mature, Spirit‑formed life where faith produces love, love fulfills the law, and the believer becomes what God intended from the beginning.

that's basically what i said. a fine posting by you.

 

[Delvianna]

Have a look at the 'perfect tense' in grammar.

Its not referring to being without blemish, but something that has been completed, mature.

That's what scripture is referring to, going onto maturity and completeness in the faith.

It's not perfect tense... because teleioi is an adjective, not a verb in the perfect tense.

And yes, teleios can carry the idea of completeness, but that does not mean “mature but still sinful.” The context determines what kind of completeness Jesus is talking about.

Jesus says, “You shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” God’s perfection is not simply that He is spiritually mature. He is morally complete and without sin.

The surrounding verses are also about moral conduct: loving enemies instead of only loving those who love you, doing good beyond the standard of ordinary sinners, and reflecting the character of the Father.

So I don’t think the verse can honestly be reduced to, “Just grow as much as you can spiritually.” Jesus gives God Himself as the standard.

If “perfect” merely meant “reach your personal best while remaining imperfect,” then Jesus could have said that. Instead He said, “as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Unless you think God needs to get more spiritually mature, which doesn't make sense.

 

[Karlon]

So you think that if someone believes they cannot be perfect, they at the same time can be perfect?

If you think as an artist, you cannot get better than you already are, you're saying you would attempt to get better anyway? That's cognitive dissonance. Psychologically, no one does that. You keep the status quo.

no. i'm saying that you should always strive to be your best in spirit & behavior. no, we will not be perfect like God. if we try always, that's the best anyone can do. your artist statement: sure, anyone who wants to succeed at something will get better. that's different. let's not get over conmplicated.

 

[Delvianna]

no. i'm saying that you should always strive to be your best in spirit & behavior. no, we will not be perfect like God. if we try always, that's the best anyone can do. your artist statement: sure, anyone who wants to succeed at something will get better. that's different. let's not get over conmplicated.

I gave the example before, Christ was fully man and was perfect. So the idea that no one can be perfect, is incorrect. Christ proved that's incorrect. He isn't suddenly in some separate category, he was 100% man and 100% perfect. Since God calls us to be perfect, that means its obtainable.

 

[Bible_Locket]

I gave the example before, Christ was fully man and was perfect. So the idea that no one can be perfect, is incorrect. Christ proved that's incorrect. He isn't suddenly in some separate category, he was 100% man and 100% perfect. Since God calls us to be perfect, that means its obtainable.

Christ was God made flesh. Which is why he was without Sin while still a human male.

Jesus was perfect.

 

[Karlon]

I gave the example before, Christ was fully man and was perfect. So the idea that no one can be perfect, is incorrect. Christ proved that's incorrect. He isn't suddenly in some separate category, he was 100% man and 100% perfect. Since God calls us to be perfect, that means its obtainable.

you are incorrect. the meaning of perfect in this subject should be clarified. tell everyone what you mean by perfect here. we were made perfect in Gods eyes. tell me 1 person who is perfect in his or her life & don't say Jesus because He was also God.

 

[OMC]

It's not perfect tense... because teleioi is an adjective, not a verb in the perfect tense.

And yes, teleios can carry the idea of completeness, but that does not mean “mature but still sinful.” The context determines what kind of completeness Jesus is talking about.

Jesus says, “You shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” God’s perfection is not simply that He is spiritually mature. He is morally complete and without sin.

The surrounding verses are also about moral conduct: loving enemies instead of only loving those who love you, doing good beyond the standard of ordinary sinners, and reflecting the character of the Father.

So I don’t think the verse can honestly be reduced to, “Just grow as much as you can spiritually.” Jesus gives God Himself as the standard.

If “perfect” merely meant “reach your personal best while remaining imperfect,” then Jesus could have said that. Instead He said, “as your Father in heaven is perfect.” Unless you think God needs to get more spiritually mature, which doesn't make sense.

Wattie is right that teleios often means complete, whole, brought to the goal, but the rebuttal is right that Jesus is not talking about “mature but still sinful,”
Because the context determines the kind of completeness He demands.
In Matt 5:48, teleioi is an adjective, not a perfect‑tense verb, and Jesus grounds the meaning in the Father’s moral character — not in human developmental maturity.
The surrounding verses are about enemy‑love, radical mercy, and surpassing the righteousness of ordinary sinners, so the “perfection” Jesus commands is moral completeness in love, not metaphysical sinlessness and not merely “grow as much as you can.”
Teleios in Paul can mean mature (1 Cor 14:20), but in Jesus’ teaching it means reflecting the Father’s moral wholeness, especially in love (Matt 5:43–48; cf. love fulfills the law).
So the resolution is simple: teleios = moral completeness expressed as enemy‑love, the very thing the Father displays and the Spirit produces in the believer — not “perfect tense,” not “sinless angelic perfection,” and not “just try your best.”

 

[Delvianna]

you are incorrect. the meaning of perfect in this subject should be clarified. tell everyone what you mean by perfect here. we were made perfect in Gods eyes. tell me 1 person who is perfect in his or her life & don't say Jesus because He was also God.

Post 169

 

[Bible_Locket]

I gave the example before, Christ was fully man and was perfect. So the idea that no one can be perfect, is incorrect. Christ proved that's incorrect. He isn't suddenly in some separate category, he was 100% man and 100% perfect. Since God calls us to be perfect, that means its obtainable.

Do you believe Jesus was also God in human form?

 

[Freed18]

I've studied this scripture with the best gifted teacher for 38 years. Including access to the largest collection of biblical manuscripts in private hands behind the Vatican.

Your teachers are, in my opinion, accommodators of sin.

Your way off track, but i appreciate your kind tone.
Where were you taught this understanding?

It was revealed to me by God when I was studying once without the chapters being designated.
I saw that Rom 8:2 nullified Paul's plaint in Rom 7:23, and saw them as a before-and-after situation.
Before-and-after Paul's conversion.

 

[Freed18]

Is that perfection?

I'm not sure which part of my post you are referring to ?

The only perfection I understand is the perfection in that love for others and even my enemies.

That is "a" perfection indeed.

Philippians 3:12-15
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which
Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting
what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling
in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view.

The perfection in this case, is the glorified body of the resurrected, as Paul refers to in the last verse of Philippians 3..."Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."
Then he will be a perfect man, in a perfect vessel !

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

That's Paul's personal testimony.You can tell by the first person grammar.
Paul also said his thorn in his flesh was a messenger of Satan. 2 Corinthians 12.

He's not speaking of all people in the faith.He's speaking for himself.

He answers his own question with Romans 8:

5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

People who want to keep on sinning stop at Romans 7 as if there is no answer to the sin problem, but Paul doesn't stop there and goes on to speak about what Jesus did for us and providing the Holy Spirit to EMPOWER US TO LIVE IN HIS SPIRIT.

So people who want to keep sinning can't use Romans 7 to excuse it and keep sinning like they don't have the Holy Spirit. What it really means is that they don't belong to God.

 

[Watchman22]

Your teachers are, in my opinion, accommodators of sin.

It was revealed to me by God when I was studying once without the chapters being designated.
I saw that Rom 8:2 nullified Paul's plaint in Rom 7:23, and saw them as a before-and-after situation.
Before-and-after Paul's conversion.

Self taught!
Need a gifted teacher to be perfected. NT 101.