I agree with your.
Me and ResidentAlien were discussing Acts 15. He was using it to claim the sabbath was done away with......
looking for help reconciling the Sabbath with common observation?
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Me and ResidentAlien were discussing Acts 15. He was using it to claim the sabbath was done away with......
Do you know what a "holy convocation" is? "qōḏeš miqrā'" It means a gathering of the people for a book reading/teaching/learning especially on a spiritual subject. Specifically a reading from the scriptures, a church service.
Lev 23:3 "Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings."
And yes, there is no NT command to assemble for worship on Sunday. The early Christians did that EVERY day from house to house. Acts 2:46
But nothing about any special WEEKLY Sunday services.
A one-time thing when Paul was about to go on a journey in Acts 20:7. But no indication this was a weekly practice to replace the 7th day sabbath.
But I Cor 16:2 was not even any assembly of the people on Sunday. Nor a weekly event.
You should read/study word for word what the texts actually say before parroting what someone else has told you.
In fact, I think Acts 17:11 should be taken very seriously by you.
Galations 4 says that the Old Testament law that came from Mt Sinai was a “law of BONDAGE.” Chapter 5:1 Paul asked them, “ Why do you want to be entangled again in a yoke of BOBDAGE?” He is talking about the WHOLE law of Moses—all that came from Mt Sinai. Circumcision is just being used as a case in point; an example. I know that because in chapter 4:10, he says “You observe DAYS (SABBATHS) months, season and years”-all from that old law of Moses gotten from Sinai, that Paul calls “BONDAGE.” Paul says, “ I am afraid of you, less I have labored for you in VAIN.” You think Paul is congratulating them for keeping “days” like sabbaths? No! Just before verse 10, he says do you desire again to be in bondage? He is trying to rescue them from that Old law and get them to be “FREE” from it by serving the law of Christ.
And in chapter 5, where he uses circumcision, which again was part of that old law of BONDGE, he points out that by keeping ONE PART of that old law —like circumcision—“YOU ARE A DEBTOR TO KEEP THE WHOLE LAW!!!” That’s the exact point in which he says “you are estranged from CHRIST.
Paul says ( 5:4) “YOU WHO ATTEMPT TO BE JUSTIFIED BY “LAW”. —-what?? —-BY LAW! What law is he talking about? The Old testament law of Moses given at Mt. Sinai which he describes as a law of bondage; if you attempt to keep that “law” —
He didn't say “IF YOU ATTEMPT TO BE “ CIRCUMCISED” you are estranged from Christ, he said if you attempt to keep that “law” you are estranged from Christ and fallen from grace. To say that that statement is talking only about circumcision is not true and seems like you are misleading people/-whether intentionally or unintentionally, I don’t know, but it is not difficult at all to understand what Paul is saying.
Colossians 2:16 says don’t let ANYONE judge you for not keeping… what?….SABBATHS! See that? SabbathS is PLURAL. It has an “S” on the end of that word. That means ANY and ALL sabbaths under that old law of Moses that Hebrews says is now OBSOLETE. It’s not used anymore. It’s out of date. Hebrews says it was ready to VANISH AWAY 2000 years ago. IT IS completely gone ( in power) now. Heb. 8:13. Your answer that because there were many sabbaths, you are trying to make the scriptures say all the others are done away but this particular one sabbath us not—absolutely not true. The Holy Spirit has spoken and He SAYS “sabbathS” —that includes any old “Law of Moses” sabbath you want to talk about.
The freedom we have in the New Law of Christ provides us with a “new” sabbath and He says it is for the people of God. Is this false doctrine really worth the effort to defend it? It will leave you separated from Christ.
I have no idea what you said, not why/how any of those scriptures have to do with what I said.
yes a lot of people use acts 15 to say the commandments are no more but it was all about the requirements for circumcision, that was what they debated in that chapter
Here are home highlights of this chapter
Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
it was about circumcision was necessary to be saved, Paul and Barnabas went to the disciples to examine tue question and;
Peter appointed by God to go to the gentiles ( Acts 15:7) said NO:
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
than later they added a few more items from the law of Moses that they deemed necessary in the immediate:
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Act 15:30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
Act 15:31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
it was all about circuncision but they kept a few items of ther Law of Moses.
Unfortunately some peiple use this to say we dont need the commandments,
if this was true, people could Lie, steal, murder........ using the same flawed logic.
The Ten Commandments written by God himself are is the laws of Moses, God calls the Ten Commandments "THE COVENANT" be careful about that, What Paul always refereed to was the laws of Moses ceremonial vertical the many sabbaths it was never about the ten commandments here is the proog from Paul himself;
1 Corinthians 7:19“ Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.”
Rom 7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."
Romans 2:13:“For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified"
Didn't you say there was no OT command to congregate together on the 7th day sabbath for worship purposes?
The text I gave is only one of many.
Can't you find any more yourself?
Do any of the 10 precepts in the 10 commandment law mention circumcision?
Then how could Paul be talking about the 10 commandments here?
Where does the bible say the New Law of Christ provides us with a New Sabbath? I think you have been misinformed.
Obviously you never read such a thing for yourself in the NT.
Col 2 is speaking of feast days. Holidays other than the sabbath commandment of the 10.
Any holiday the Jews rested on were also called sabbath days of rest and most never even fell on the same day of the week year after year.
Not even the New Moon sabbaths were on the same day of the week month after month.
BTW, the laws contained in ordinances were also given at Mt. Sinai. But they were given by God only to Moses who wrote them in a book. They contained the specifics for feast days and animal sacrifices and redemption from sin.
The 10 commandments were spoken out loud to the entire Hebrew nation from the top of Mt. Sinai and were written on tables of stone. Nothing in them about redemption from sin, animal sacrifices, circumcision, feast days and other holy days.
The scriptures do not make such a distinction as you are making. No where does Paul ever divide the Old law of Moses into “ceremonial”, “vertical” or any other division. The law is always spoken of as a whole. You are ASSUMMING that in order to protect your doctrine; but it is not in the scriptures. 1 Cor. 7:19 is not talking about the Old Testament commandments but the commandments that Paul is preaching. He specifically says so in chapter 14:37, “The things that I write are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD.” Paul is not talking about Old Testament commandments and 1 Cor 7:19 is not talking about Old Testament commandments either. He is talking about the commandments of Jesus, the Lord. You are totally misinterping that scripture to fit your false doctrine.
The 10 commandments are part of the Old Jewish law of Moses. He got it all on Mt. Sinai. The Bible does not separate the 10 commandments from the rest of the old law. Men did that and then taught it as if it came from God. It did not. That idea is man made. And in every scripture where the Holy Spirit says the old law has been “done away, taken away, made “obsolete, Nailed to the cross, every one of those passages include the 10 commandments. Give me the scripture—book, chapter, and verse— that says they are not. Give me proof from God—not men. That they are “separate” from the old law of Moses gotten on Mt. Sinai. I can give you lots of scriptures that say the old law is no longer in effect. Now show me in the scriptures where it says the 10 commandments are not part of that old law.
Hebrews 4:9,-11 “THERE REMAINS THEREFORE A REST FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD.
FOR HE WHO HAS ENTERED HIS REST ( Jesus),
HAS HIMSELF ALSO CEASED FROM HIS WORKS, AS GOD ( Jehovah) DID FROM HIS.
LEY US ALSO BE DILIGENT TO ENTER THAT REST…”
That’s where the new law of Christ says He provides us with a new Sabbath.
I have not been misinformed—the Holy Spirit does not misinform anyone,
Obviously, you never read Hebrews 4:9-11 for yourself in the New Testament.
You have no scripture—no proof— that COLOSSIANS 2 is speaking of “Holidays, feast days other than the sabbath commandment of the 10.” You expect us to just believe that because you say so? You are ASSUMING” again. Where is the scripture that says that? Are you attempting to speak for the Holy Spirit? Then show me where the Holy Spirit says that the Sanbaths stated in Col. 2 are not tlKingvabout the sabbath in the 10 commandments. If you say that is true, surely you have more to back that statement up than just your imagination.
So far, you have misinterpreted scripture. And based much of your argumentation on your own assumptions rather than what the Holy Spirit actually says.
You are obviously very skilled at taking scriptures out of context. I cannot believe it is unintentional.
Heb 4:9-11 is talking about the 7th day sabbath:
1) The word "rest" verse 9 is the Greek word "sabbatismos" and specifically refers to the 7th day sabbath
2) The text itself in its entirety is Heb 4:1-11. You are taking verses 4 and 10 out of the meaning of the context
Verse 4: "For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works."
Obviously the 7th day sabbath is this rest the text is talking about. The same sabbath day of Gen 2:1-3 and Exo 20:8-11
Verse 10: "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his." We follow God's example by also resting from our weekly labors on the 7th day sabbath just as God did from His.
This puts a different light on verse 11 than what you want to see: "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." The phrase "Let us labour" is the Greek word "spoudazō". It means to endeavor with all our strength/might. Making this a direct NT command to keep the 7th day sabbath. AND adds the warning that if you do not you will fall into a state of unbelief.
Not even knowing which god you worship if he is NOT the Creator of all things.
On a side note:
Also in this text it shows that Jesus never authorized the use of any other day designed to be a day of rest other than the 7th day of the week:
Verse 8: "For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day."
Col 2:16 speaks of meat, drink, holidays, new moons; none of which are part of the 10 commandments but they are part of the Mosaic laws. So why would you think the special days of feasting, resting, even fasting days (which were also called sabbath days of rest) are the same as the 7th day sabbath of the 4th commandment?
And yes, I know, acknowledging the validity of the Saturday sabbath goes against your denominational teachings and could even lead to your expulsion (anathema) from your church. But the choice is yours (as it is with every individual); follow God and His word or follow the teachings of men in the place of God.....
BTW; Did you know there are over 80 different WEEKLY 7th day sabbaths recorded in the book of Acts alone kept by the early Christians, Jews and Gentiles alike?
Exodus 24:8
So Moses took the blood, splattered it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that the LORD has made with
you in accordance with all these words.”
When the covenant was formally ratified at Mount Sinai in Exodus 24:7, Moses took the "book of the covenant" and read it in
the hearing of the people, and the people answered, "All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient."
The original version of the covenant included in Exodus 24 was the entire law.
That's exactly why you omitted the reference to the covenant in Exodus 24.
Acts 15 is not about circumcision.
Acts 15 is not about circumcision and a few more items from the law.
Acts 15:5
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct
them to keep the Law of Moses.”
In my Bible it states "and to direct them to keep the Law of Moses".
Circumcision is the initiation rite into the law of Moses for a Gentile.
You missed the entire reason for the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15!
The conflict was the difference between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant, do Gentiles need to be under the law?
Are the Gentiles under the Old Covenant or not?
Are Gentiles now under two covenants at the same time?
It is not hard to see that after Gentiles were being converted that some would think, that Gentiles should be under the law.
Genesis is a theological text not a history of the world.
Other nations such as Egypt followed a ten day cycle on the calendar in the first century.
The Egyptians worked for 8 days and had 2 days off.
The Roman calendar was different to the Egyptians.
No Weekends: Romans did not have a Saturday and Sunday weekend. Instead, they utilized an 8 day cycle featuring an
nundinae (market day) every eighth day where rural citizens came to town to trade, schools closed, and politicians
paused business.
Babylonians used a similar calendar to the Jews a lunar calendar.
The Babylonians used a lunar calendar divided their 29 or 30 day lunar months into roughly four segments, giving
special religious significance to the 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th days.
Continuous Cycle Variation on a lunar calendar. Because the month length did not divide evenly into rigid 7 day blocks,
the final segments of a month often stretched to 8 or 9 days, breaking a purely uninterrupted weekly rhythm.
Both the Jewish lunar calendar and the Babylonian calendar were identical.
That is why we read in Colossians the following verse.
Colossians 2:16-17
Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or
a Sabbath day things which are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
The start of the month on the lunar calendar in Israel was announced with a horn blast.
Constantine in 321 AD introduced a seven day week to the Roman Empire.
The Romans had an 8 day cycle of 7 work days then a market day and Constantine changed that to the seven day week.
You cannot use circumcised or uncircumcised as an example of whether or not the 10 commandment law should be obeyed. For the plain and simple reason that the 10 commandments say nothing about circumcision.
What biblical condemnation occurs if one is a murderer and never repents (both OT and NT)? Death of course, the wages of sin.
What condemnation is specific for not being circumcised (especially in the NT)? Absolutely nothing. There is no such law in the NT requiring it or any mention of condemnation if you break that requirement.
Show me a specific command in the NT where it states something alone the lines of:
"You don't have to keep the 1st commandment. Go ahead and worship others gods if you like."
"It is OK now to murder, steal, commit adultery, etc."
THEN I will believe the 10 commandment law is no longer binding on Christians.
Of course I would stop being Christian. I cannot live such a life of lawlessness and anarchy. Not in this life nor for all eternity in the next. That would not be paradise to me. It would be like the other place.
So take the 4th commandment out of the law, out of your worship, and then tell me how do you know which god you worship.
You have taken the Creator out of His own law.
It is the ONLY way to know for sure if you worship the Creator of all things. Simply because He made the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th.....
Might as well go worship a fish. He did not create anything either.
Posting texts that state it doesn't matter if you are circumcised or not is not proof that the 7th day sabbath has been abolished.
Who cares what Pagan nations had for calendars? Those guys worshiped bulls and fishes, goats and crocodiles, the sun and moon.
If you want to follow pagan beliefs then go ahead. Turn your back on the Creator of all things.
But don't try to convince a Christian that God did NOT create the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th day.
So now you don't need to be concerned with a 7 day weekly cycle because Horus says it's a 10 day cycle....
Even a child can see you have forsaken the Creator and chosen a mythological fantasy being as god.
You try to erase a distinction that Scripture itself makes. You are asking me to prove from Scripture something Scripture has already clearly shown.
The problem is that you are treating everything given through Moses as though it was written and spoken in exactly the same way. It was not.
God Himself made a clear distinction between the Ten Commandments He spoke and wrote, and the law that Moses wrote in a book. Deuteronomy says: “So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone” (Deut. 4:13). Notice what God calls the Ten Commandments: His covenant. He also said that after speaking these commandments, “He added no more” (Deut. 5:22). These two tablets containing the Ten Commandments were then placed inside the Ark of the Covenant(Deut. 10:5; 1 Kings 8:9), while the law that Moses wrote in a book was placed beside the Ark (Deut. 31:24-26). God in person wrote the Ten Commandments on stone, called them His covenant, added no more, and commanded that they be kept inside the Ark of the Covenant. Moses wrote the other law in a book and placed it beside the Ark. Scripture itself gives us this distinction; it is not a distinction invented by men by made by GOD himself.
And Jesus never taught that God's commandments had been cancelled. Quite the opposite. When the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he needed to do to have eternal life, Jesus answered, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matt. 19:17). Jesus then named commandments from the Ten Commandments, including murder, adultery, stealing, bearing false witness, and honoring father and mother (Matt. 19:18-19).
Jesus also said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15), and, “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me” (John 14:21). He did not say His commandments were only for Jews, nor did He warn His disciples that nine of the Ten Commandments would soon disappear.
The biggest problem is the claim that every passage about the old covenant being removed must therefore include the Ten Commandments. That conclusion cannot follow. because scripture prover the cntrary and I have given it. It is You who must show that Scripture actually says the Ten Commandments were abolished. You have not done so and cannot do so.
Hebrews even explains the New Covenant by saying, “I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts” (Heb. 8:10; 10:16). God did not say, “I will remove My law.” He said He would write His laws on the heart.
That agrees perfectly with what God had already promised through Jeremiah: “I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts” (Jer. 31:33).
So we are NOT under the Old Covenant The question is whether God threw away His commandments when He established the New Covenant. Scripture says that Under the New Covenant, God's law is written inwardly rather than merely being written on stone.
And there is one more problem with your argument. If the Ten Commandments were abolished, Jesus failed to warn His disciples about it. Instead, Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15), “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love” (John 15:10), and “Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law” (Matt. 5:18).
I have produced the requested verses answering, “The Ten Commandments are separate from the law of Moses.” and have proven they are distinct
The burden is therefore not on me to find a verse that uses your exact modern terminology. The burden is on you to show where God or Jesus said, “The Ten Commandments are abolished.” You cannot simply assume that because both were given through Moses, everything God personally spoke and wrote must have the same purpose and status.
Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). That is enough to settle the central issue. The New Covenant did not teach God's people to stop obeying God. It teaches God's people to have His law written in their hearts.
We have discussed this already in the past but you always come back not understanding the distinction between the law of Moses and the ten commandments God called the covenant Explain it on this thread in an answer to another poster please see post no 139, thank you.