What is the age of accountability?

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Hi @Lanolin. I agree that every person is different, so it really depends on their maturity, understanding, and revelation of what is right or wrong, good or evil. IMO it begins with the same question that was posed to Eve in the garden.
Yes thats probably were it begins for most people.

We all sort of have this idea of what is 'forbidden' or a bad thing to do, or what happens when we don't follow instructions from our parents, but for those not brought up to know who God is, at the time, it's just your parents making the rules. A good girl or boy obeys his/her parents, a naughty one rebels.
 
Also, you don't really question your parents as a child Its just the way it is. They are bigger and more powerful than you, and if they threaten to leave you homeless or not give you dinner they can actually do that lol

Some children get it worse than others, their parents beat them up if they do something that makes them angry or are disobedient.
 
I also found you can't blame your siblings for something you did. But also, it's bad when your sibling blames you for everything, especially for things THEY did wrong.

you may profess innocence, or you didn't know but sometimes its 'you should know by now' or 'you're old enough to know better' but a lot of times, you aren't taught all the things you need to know, sometimes you just pick things up by copying others.

Also there is peer pressure to conform to whatever the leader/majority is doing
 
My parents were not Christians or religious.

My parents didn't represent God they were just my parents. They looked after me, fed and clothed me and made sure I went to school.

Now you are calling it the 'stage of accountability'?? ok whatever,

You are quite wrong in your assumptions. They did not witness God because they didn't know God.

I assume that every normally intelligent atheist in NZ and the rest of the modern world surely knows about God and sin,
although because they do not believe in the NT God they disagree/disbelieve that sin is rejecting belief in that God.

I think even many Christians fail to understand that caring for kids represents God's love. My parents credited God,
so it was easy for me to believe God is loving/caring.

I have been indicating all along that the age of accountability "about eight" is a stage of mental maturity like that of Adam and Eve.

Happy trails until we talk again! 🤠
 
Was it a bad because you intended to curse someone? i.e were you talking to someone when you said it? or was it just a swear word everyone else was saying as an expletive. Like 'dang or 'darn' for the other 'd' word.


The bad word I said to someone was "sucker" because he was duped, lol! But I felt terrible after I said it.


🕊️
 
I assume that every normally intelligent atheist in NZ and the rest of the modern world surely knows about God and sin,
although because they do not believe in the NT God they disagree/disbelieve that sin is rejecting belief in that God.

I think even many Christians fail to understand that caring for kids represents God's love. My parents credited God,
so it was easy for me to believe God is loving/caring.

I have been indicating all along that the age of accountability "about eight" is a stage of mental maturity like that of Adam and Eve.

Happy trails until we talk again! 🤠
You'd be surprised how many DO NOT KNOW

But also, not everyone sings the national anthem (Jehovahs witnesses actually refuse to!) which is God Defend New Zealand. Some schools don't teach it, and they don't talk about sin. Its just bad behaviour or wrong doing.

The God save the Queen thing was from the British empire days, and the whole Church of England sense of tradition was what the English bought over, but there's other christianity aside from CoE, there's Catholics and Presbyterians too, as well as some home-grown religions.
And other ones that aren't from the Bible, i.e Buddhism, Hinduism, New Age etc.

Just don't assume everyone grew up in a church and had God fearing parents LIKE YOU DID.
 
The bad word I said to someone was "sucker" because he was duped, lol! But I felt terrible after I said it.


🕊️
Well 'sucks' is kind of a rude word for a lot of people who don't know what it means, also actually it kind of implies someone is a baby. Used as an insult, so, kind of cursing someone.

No you shouldn't ever say it about someone.
 
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Agnostics are not the same as Athiests who fervently deny that God or anything spiritual exists.

Agnostics just don't know who God is or have a relationship with Him.
 
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Well 'sucks' is kind of a rude word for a lot of people who don't know what it means, also actually it kind of implies someone is a baby. Used as an insult, so, kind of cursing someone.

No you shouldn't ever say it about someone.


Right, which was why I felt terrible about it. I knew it was wrong - I realized that at age 11 years old.


🕊️
 
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According to what I could find in scripture, when someone can understand God’s commands, grasp right and wrong, and knowingly choose rebellion, they are accountable; before that, they are not. Obviously, there is more than that but that's the whole of it.
Good explanation.
 
Good explanation.
What age was it for you..?

God's commandments are not taught all the time, esp for non Jewish people (Gentiles) .613 applied to those circumcised.
Usually for most christian religions it's the 10 that are drummed into people's heads, SDAs especially. Other churches say there are only 2 we need to remember.
 
You'd be surprised how many DO NOT KNOW

But also, not everyone sings the national anthem (Jehovahs witnesses actually refuse to!) which is God Defend New Zealand. Some schools don't teach it, and they don't talk about sin. Its just bad behaviour or wrong doing.

The God save the Queen thing was from the British empire days, and the whole Church of England sense of tradition was what the English bought over, but there's other christianity aside from CoE, there's Catholics and Presbyterians too, as well as some home-grown religions.
And other ones that aren't from the Bible, i.e Buddhism, Hinduism, New Age etc.

Just don't assume everyone grew up in a church and had God fearing parents LIKE YOU DID.

So would Paul, who said everyone is without excuse, because they have creation as evidence of God (Rom. 1:20, 3:23).
Here is what I assume in the Apologetics thread:

Imagine that you have suddenly begun to exist as a mentally competent or normally intelligent human being in NZ (like Adam and Eve in Genesis). Certainly, your immediate concern would be meeting your survival needs, but as soon as there was time for reflection, would you not wonder why you were “born”, how you should behave, and what you ought to accomplish with your life?

Since absolute skepticism or agnosticism is unattainable for thinkers or truthseekers, there are only two qualitatively different ways of answering these questions. One way is by assuming that there is no ultimate “whyness” or purpose beyond survival and avoiding pain, so it does not ultimately matter what one believes or does, because humanity merely evolved from eternal energy/matter, into which it “devolves” at death. You may desire for some reason to survive and to save the world, but if life becomes too painful you may wish you were never born and want to destroy the world, because there is no good reason you ought to be like Messiah rather than like Mania or to be loving rather than maniacal. You may believe and act like evil exists or not, because life is a farce or a continual “King of the Hill” (KOTH) struggle against human adversaries and various other types of adversity, having no ultimate or universal moral imperative (UMI).

The second type of answer is that life is NOT a farce—that existence has meaning, and how one believes and behaves does matter for some non-arbitrary reason. This answer seems more appealing to me and almost logically imperative, although some people appear to prefer the paths of nihilism and KOTH (cf. Matt. 13:14-15).

I call the first type of answer cosmaterialism, because it views reality as consisting only of the material cosmos or universe and as having only four dimensions (space plus time), which are perceived by the five physical senses, implying a perpetual history of KOTH. I call the second way of believing moralism, because—while accepting the reality of the physical/material—it also affirms a fifth dimension perceived by a sixth intuitive or spiritual sense that gives reality a logical basis for meaning and morality (which means for ending KOTH).

The choice between cosmaterialism and moralism logically is the first fundamental choice in life (cf. Gen. 3:5). It can be thought of as a watershed decision that divides all people into two essentially different philosophical categories or world-views like a continental divide, although the analogy breaks down at the points the various oceans connect. (Watershed divide: Moralism or Nihilism?) A person who believes cosmaterialism, moral nihilism and that life’s struggles are meaningless frequently tends to seek escape even via suicide, whether by one act or by a downward spiral of self-destructive behavior. Again, until and unless this option were somehow proven beyond doubt, moralism or viewing life as meaningful seems to be the better belief.

The second watershed decision flows immediately and implicitly from the moralist viewpoint (like major rivers from one side of the Divide)—choosing what (or who) to believe gives existence meaning and under-girds moral conscience. As one analyzes the variety of moralistic beliefs, there seem to be four main viewpoints: the ground of meaning/morality is human power (humanism, cf. Gen. 11:4), there is a natural moral law or karma in the universe (karmaism, cf. Gal. 6:7), there is natural “meaning” with an instinct or proclivity toward morality (naturalism, cf. Rom. 2:14), or a supernatural Supreme Being exists, who has a moral will for humanity, with which humans may cooperate or not (biblical and especially NT monotheism or simply theism or belief in one God, cf. Gen. 17:1).

Did your parents and you not assume one of the first three but know others believed the fourth?
 
What age was it for you..?

God's commandments are not taught all the time, esp for non Jewish people (Gentiles) .613 applied to those circumcised.
Usually for most christian religions it's the 10 that are drummed into people's heads, SDAs especially. Other churches say there are only 2 we need to remember.
Personally I remember knowing good and bad before kindergarten. Not understanding evil as I do now, but I knew what being bad was.
 
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So would Paul, who said everyone is without excuse, because they have creation as evidence of God (Rom. 1:20, 3:23).
Here is what I assume in the Apologetics thread:

Imagine that you have suddenly begun to exist as a mentally competent or normally intelligent human being in NZ (like Adam and Eve in Genesis). Certainly, your immediate concern would be meeting your survival needs, but as soon as there was time for reflection, would you not wonder why you were “born”, how you should behave, and what you ought to accomplish with your life?

Since absolute skepticism or agnosticism is unattainable for thinkers or truthseekers, there are only two qualitatively different ways of answering these questions. One way is by assuming that there is no ultimate “whyness” or purpose beyond survival and avoiding pain, so it does not ultimately matter what one believes or does, because humanity merely evolved from eternal energy/matter, into which it “devolves” at death. You may desire for some reason to survive and to save the world, but if life becomes too painful you may wish you were never born and want to destroy the world, because there is no good reason you ought to be like Messiah rather than like Mania or to be loving rather than maniacal. You may believe and act like evil exists or not, because life is a farce or a continual “King of the Hill” (KOTH) struggle against human adversaries and various other types of adversity, having no ultimate or universal moral imperative (UMI).

The second type of answer is that life is NOT a farce—that existence has meaning, and how one believes and behaves does matter for some non-arbitrary reason. This answer seems more appealing to me and almost logically imperative, although some people appear to prefer the paths of nihilism and KOTH (cf. Matt. 13:14-15).

I call the first type of answer cosmaterialism, because it views reality as consisting only of the material cosmos or universe and as having only four dimensions (space plus time), which are perceived by the five physical senses, implying a perpetual history of KOTH. I call the second way of believing moralism, because—while accepting the reality of the physical/material—it also affirms a fifth dimension perceived by a sixth intuitive or spiritual sense that gives reality a logical basis for meaning and morality (which means for ending KOTH).

The choice between cosmaterialism and moralism logically is the first fundamental choice in life (cf. Gen. 3:5). It can be thought of as a watershed decision that divides all people into two essentially different philosophical categories or world-views like a continental divide, although the analogy breaks down at the points the various oceans connect. (Watershed divide: Moralism or Nihilism?) A person who believes cosmaterialism, moral nihilism and that life’s struggles are meaningless frequently tends to seek escape even via suicide, whether by one act or by a downward spiral of self-destructive behavior. Again, until and unless this option were somehow proven beyond doubt, moralism or viewing life as meaningful seems to be the better belief.

The second watershed decision flows immediately and implicitly from the moralist viewpoint (like major rivers from one side of the Divide)—choosing what (or who) to believe gives existence meaning and under-girds moral conscience. As one analyzes the variety of moralistic beliefs, there seem to be four main viewpoints: the ground of meaning/morality is human power (humanism, cf. Gen. 11:4), there is a natural moral law or karma in the universe (karmaism, cf. Gal. 6:7), there is natural “meaning” with an instinct or proclivity toward morality (naturalism, cf. Rom. 2:14), or a supernatural Supreme Being exists, who has a moral will for humanity, with which humans may cooperate or not (biblical and especially NT monotheism or simply theism or belief in one God, cf. Gen. 17:1).

Did your parents and you not assume one of the first three but know others believed the fourth?
The whole cosmaterialism‑vs‑moralism dichotomy is a philosophical parlor trick that pretends humans begin life as neutral thinkers choosing between two abstract worldviews, but Paul says the exact opposite — humans do not begin morally neutral, do not begin philosophically open, and do not begin as “truthseekers” weighing options; they begin as suppressors of truth (Rom 1:18), already knowing God through creation (Rom 1:19–20), already accountable (Rom 2:14–15), already condemned (Rom 3:23), and already in rebellion (Rom 3:10–12). Your imaginary “man suddenly appearing in New Zealand” is a cute thought experiment, but it contradicts Paul’s anthropology: humans don’t reason their way to God; they suppress what they already know.
Your “two watershed choices” are not watershed choices — they are symptoms of the heart’s posture toward revelation.
Your “cosmaterialism” is just Romans 1 suppression dressed up in philosophical vocabulary, and your “moralism” is just human conscience without regeneration.
The real divide is not between “nihilism vs meaning,” or “four dimensions vs five,” or “cosmaterialism vs moralism”; the real divide is dead vs alive, flesh vs Spirit, suppression vs submission, Adam vs Christ.
Paul doesn’t say people choose between worldviews; he says people either suppress the truth they know or receive the truth God gives. Your categories collapse because they treat unbelief as an intellectual mistake instead of a moral rebellion.
 
So would Paul, who said everyone is without excuse, because they have creation as evidence of God (Rom. 1:20, 3:23).
Here is what I assume in the Apologetics thread:

Imagine that you have suddenly begun to exist as a mentally competent or normally intelligent human being in NZ (like Adam and Eve in Genesis). Certainly, your immediate concern would be meeting your survival needs, but as soon as there was time for reflection, would you not wonder why you were “born”, how you should behave, and what you ought to accomplish with your life?

Since absolute skepticism or agnosticism is unattainable for thinkers or truthseekers, there are only two qualitatively different ways of answering these questions. One way is by assuming that there is no ultimate “whyness” or purpose beyond survival and avoiding pain, so it does not ultimately matter what one believes or does, because humanity merely evolved from eternal energy/matter, into which it “devolves” at death. You may desire for some reason to survive and to save the world, but if life becomes too painful you may wish you were never born and want to destroy the world, because there is no good reason you ought to be like Messiah rather than like Mania or to be loving rather than maniacal. You may believe and act like evil exists or not, because life is a farce or a continual “King of the Hill” (KOTH) struggle against human adversaries and various other types of adversity, having no ultimate or universal moral imperative (UMI).

The second type of answer is that life is NOT a farce—that existence has meaning, and how one believes and behaves does matter for some non-arbitrary reason. This answer seems more appealing to me and almost logically imperative, although some people appear to prefer the paths of nihilism and KOTH (cf. Matt. 13:14-15).

I call the first type of answer cosmaterialism, because it views reality as consisting only of the material cosmos or universe and as having only four dimensions (space plus time), which are perceived by the five physical senses, implying a perpetual history of KOTH. I call the second way of believing moralism, because—while accepting the reality of the physical/material—it also affirms a fifth dimension perceived by a sixth intuitive or spiritual sense that gives reality a logical basis for meaning and morality (which means for ending KOTH).

The choice between cosmaterialism and moralism logically is the first fundamental choice in life (cf. Gen. 3:5). It can be thought of as a watershed decision that divides all people into two essentially different philosophical categories or world-views like a continental divide, although the analogy breaks down at the points the various oceans connect. (Watershed divide: Moralism or Nihilism?) A person who believes cosmaterialism, moral nihilism and that life’s struggles are meaningless frequently tends to seek escape even via suicide, whether by one act or by a downward spiral of self-destructive behavior. Again, until and unless this option were somehow proven beyond doubt, moralism or viewing life as meaningful seems to be the better belief.

The second watershed decision flows immediately and implicitly from the moralist viewpoint (like major rivers from one side of the Divide)—choosing what (or who) to believe gives existence meaning and under-girds moral conscience. As one analyzes the variety of moralistic beliefs, there seem to be four main viewpoints: the ground of meaning/morality is human power (humanism, cf. Gen. 11:4), there is a natural moral law or karma in the universe (karmaism, cf. Gal. 6:7), there is natural “meaning” with an instinct or proclivity toward morality (naturalism, cf. Rom. 2:14), or a supernatural Supreme Being exists, who has a moral will for humanity, with which humans may cooperate or not (biblical and especially NT monotheism or simply theism or belief in one God, cf. Gen. 17:1).

Did your parents and you not assume one of the first three but know others believed the fourth?

The whole cosmaterialism‑vs‑moralism dichotomy is a philosophical parlor trick that pretends humans begin life as neutral thinkers choosing between two abstract worldviews, but Paul says the exact opposite — humans do not begin morally neutral, do not begin philosophically open, and do not begin as “truthseekers” weighing options; they begin as suppressors of truth (Rom 1:18), already knowing God through creation (Rom 1:19–20), already accountable (Rom 2:14–15), already condemned (Rom 3:23), and already in rebellion (Rom 3:10–12). Your imaginary “man suddenly appearing in New Zealand” is a cute thought experiment, but it contradicts Paul’s anthropology: humans don’t reason their way to God; they suppress what they already know.
Your “two watershed choices” are not watershed choices — they are symptoms of the heart’s posture toward revelation.
Your “cosmaterialism” is just Romans 1 suppression dressed up in philosophical vocabulary, and your “moralism” is just human conscience without regeneration.
The real divide is not between “nihilism vs meaning,” or “four dimensions vs five,” or “cosmaterialism vs moralism”; the real divide is dead vs alive, flesh vs Spirit, suppression vs submission, Adam vs Christ.
Paul doesn’t say people choose between worldviews; he says people either suppress the truth they know or receive the truth God gives. Your categories collapse because they treat unbelief as an intellectual mistake instead of a moral rebellion.


I think both of you can agree that we know God exists from what He has made even without exposure to Christianity .


🕊️
 
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I would think 13 but I can't find it in the Bible what the exact age is. 20 seems to be the age that God wanted his soldiers in the army.

Some churches talk about this but are vague on what the age is. It's either this or 'confirmation' or 'first communion' but since I didn't go to church when I was younger I missed out on all this.

Also is it different for boys and girls. Or the same?
I think you mean, "When is the age of accountability?"

I would ask you, "What is the age of accountability?" What do you mean by "the age of accountability".

I don't see anything like "the age of accountability" mentioned in scripture.
 
The whole cosmaterialism‑vs‑moralism dichotomy is a philosophical parlor trick that pretends humans begin life as neutral thinkers choosing between two abstract worldviews, but Paul says the exact opposite — humans do not begin morally neutral, do not begin philosophically open, and do not begin as “truthseekers” weighing options; they begin as suppressors of truth (Rom 1:18), already knowing God through creation (Rom 1:19–20), already accountable (Rom 2:14–15), already condemned (Rom 3:23), and already in rebellion (Rom 3:10–12). Your imaginary “man suddenly appearing in New Zealand” is a cute thought experiment, but it contradicts Paul’s anthropology: humans don’t reason their way to God; they suppress what they already know.
Your “two watershed choices” are not watershed choices — they are symptoms of the heart’s posture toward revelation.
Your “cosmaterialism” is just Romans 1 suppression dressed up in philosophical vocabulary, and your “moralism” is just human conscience without regeneration.
The real divide is not between “nihilism vs meaning,” or “four dimensions vs five,” or “cosmaterialism vs moralism”; the real divide is dead vs alive, flesh vs Spirit, suppression vs submission, Adam vs Christ.
Paul doesn’t say people choose between worldviews; he says people either suppress the truth they know or receive the truth God gives. Your categories collapse because they treat unbelief as an intellectual mistake instead of a moral rebellion.

Love of wisdeom = love of truth (2Thes. 2:10).
Rom. 1:20 implies humans are able to seek Truth/God and be saved (1Tim. 2:3-4, Matt. 7:7).

I began by believing in God thanks to being raised by godly parents.
If you would participate in my thought experiment, I think you would find it to be edifying.

Right reasoning is a way to describe the Way to God. I call it the Propensity Principle, which is shared in the Apologetics thread.

The real divide may be described both ways.
You seem to like the philosophical term "categories collapse".
 
Love of wisdeom = love of truth (2Thes. 2:10).
Rom. 1:20 implies humans are able to seek Truth/God and be saved (1Tim. 2:3-4, Matt. 7:7).

I began by believing in God thanks to being raised by godly parents.
If you would participate in my thought experiment, I think you would find it to be edifying.

Right reasoning is a way to describe the Way to God. I call it the Propensity Principle, which is shared in the Apologetics thread.

The real divide may be described both ways.
You seem to like the philosophical term "categories collapse".
“love of wisdom = love of truth” is fine, but none of those verses overturn Paul’s anthropology:
Romans 1:20 does not say humans are able to seek God successfully, it says they are without excuse because they already know Him and suppress that knowledge;
1 Tim 2:3–4 expresses God’s saving desire, not human moral ability;
Matthew 7:7 is spoken to disciples, not to neutral truth‑seekers.
Your own story proves the point: you didn’t begin as a neutral philosopher weighing “cosmaterialism vs moralism,” you began with revelation mediated through godly parents, which is exactly how Paul says God ordinarily awakens faith — through proclamation, not autonomous reasoning.
Your “Propensity Principle” still treats unbelief as an intellectual puzzle rather than suppression, and your thought experiment still imagines a man starting from zero rather than from the knowledge Paul says all humans already possess.
The divide cannot “be described both ways,” because your categories assume moral neutrality and philosophical openness, while Paul insists the divide is dead vs alive, flesh vs Spirit, Adam vs Christ — not “nihilism vs meaning.”
Calling that “category collapse” isn’t a preference; it’s the unavoidable result of taking Paul’s anthropology seriously.
 
I think you mean, "When is the age of accountability?"

I would ask you, "What is the age of accountability?" What do you mean by "the age of accountability".

I don't see anything like "the age of accountability" mentioned in scripture.

Scripture assumes all normal adults are morally accountable, and the story of A&E indicates when that stage/age occurs.
Moral accountability is defined as being able to conceive of God and to have a conscience based on the Golden Rule/divine love,
which in my experience occurred by about the age/stage of eight.

Lanolin claims not until 32, but she seems to confuse awareness of the possibility of God with faith that God exists.
What does your experience indicate?
 
“love of wisdom = love of truth” is fine, but none of those verses overturn Paul’s anthropology:
Romans 1:20 does not say humans are able to seek God successfully, it says they are without excuse because they already know Him and suppress that knowledge;
1 Tim 2:3–4 expresses God’s saving desire, not human moral ability;
Matthew 7:7 is spoken to disciples, not to neutral truth‑seekers.
Your own story proves the point: you didn’t begin as a neutral philosopher weighing “cosmaterialism vs moralism,” you began with revelation mediated through godly parents, which is exactly how Paul says God ordinarily awakens faith — through proclamation, not autonomous reasoning.
Your “Propensity Principle” still treats unbelief as an intellectual puzzle rather than suppression, and your thought experiment still imagines a man starting from zero rather than from the knowledge Paul says all humans already possess.
The divide cannot “be described both ways,” because your categories assume moral neutrality and philosophical openness, while Paul insists the divide is dead vs alive, flesh vs Spirit, Adam vs Christ — not “nihilism vs meaning.”
Calling that “category collapse” isn’t a preference; it’s the unavoidable result of taking Paul’s anthropology seriously.

My claims/faith affirms Paul's entire anthropology and theology, which is why I claim Christians share the mind of Paul and Christ.
Rom. 1:20 refers to humans who have sufficient revelation of God for saving faith and so have no excuse if they reject Him.
2Tim. 3:15 refers to humans who had godly parents and thus who loved/believed in God from infancy.
God's desire per 1Tim. 2:3-4 and Matt. 7:7 implies MFW, which I know you tulipists reject--from infancy?

You are correct that I began life with a bias toward Christian faith, which is why I conduct the thought experiment in the Apologetics thread so atheists will not accuse me of cheating on the exam when the Propensity Principle indicates Christianity is the best belief and intellectual answer to the most important question in life.
Calling that "category collapse" is indeed your preference, not a term used in Scripture.