looking for help reconciling the Sabbath with common observation?

[Davidstarr]

And yet you failed to show direct commands from the Lord and His Apostles in the New Covenant requiring Christians to have church on Saturday

And you failed to show warnings given by the Lord and His Apostles in the New Covenant that tell us not having church on Saturday is a sin and what happens to people who do not have church on Saturday

Galatians 4:9-11 - But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Romans 14:5 - One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.”

Counsel of Jerusalem in Acts 15
The Saturday peoples can never overcome the Counsel of Jerusalem in Acts 15 where the Lord did NOT lead them to include observing Saturday sabbath... unless the Saturday peoples want to claim the Apostles were being led by devils in the Book of Acts and not being led by the Lord.

If they say the Apostles were being led by the Lord at the the Counsel of Jerusalem, then they must accept the Apostles teachings as being from the Lord.... and accept observing Saturday sabbath is not applicable under the New Covenant.

But, if they don't accept the Apostles teachings as being from the Lord at the Counsel of Jerusalem then the Saturday peoples must concede that they believe the Apostles were listening to devils which is why they did not teach the people about observing Saturday sabbath.

Acts 15:28,29 - For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

The Saturday peoples apparently do believe the Apostles in the Book of Acts were being led by devils.

I never said the 4th commandment states church attendance is required.
I said it commands a 6-day work week with a day of rest on the 7th day.

Please read the command yourself before posting such ignorant comments.
It's in Exo 20:8-11. Do you need a KJV bible?

BTW; the early Christians and apostles didn't have church buildings back then...
They met in the homes of fellow believers. And this was EVERY day not just Saturdays...

 

[NightTwister]

No, when the Lord said do forsake the gathering of yourselves He's talking about meeting in person.

Online church is not sufficient based on scripture.

And yet most churches said it was.

 

[NightTwister]

I never said the 4th commandment states church attendance is required.
I said it commands a 6-day work week with a day of rest on the 7th day.

Please read the command yourself before posting such ignorant comments.
It's in Exo 20:8-11. Do you need a KJV bible?

BTW; the early Christians and apostles didn't have church buildings back then...
They met in the homes of fellow believers. And this was EVERY day not just Saturdays...

We prefer Bibles in English.

 

[Roger316]

FInal EDIT: you are really of bad faith, all that he taught means ALl! everything he said and did it is why we have matthew, mark, luke and John.

When Jesus taught his disciples, do you really believe he taught them the Ten Commandments? I don't think so. Think of it like this. When a young person goes off to college they don't expect to learn simple things like the days of the week or that the Moon rises once a month. They learned those things at an early age. Like, Jesus didn't teach his disciples about keeping the Sabbath on a Saturday because they would have known that from childhood.

The REAL teaching of Jesus is his commentary on what it all means. He challenged the current thinking and cultural assumptions his people got wrong. They flattened the law so much that they couldn't distinguish between keeping the Sabbath Day and healing a sick person. They couldn't tell the difference between clean hands and clean hearts.

The Ten Commandments do not fall under the category of "everything" because he didn't teach them something they already knew.

don't forget john in revelations does speak of the commandments! I guess you ignore that too.

No. But that reinforces my point.

even Paul spoke of the commandments that they were holy and just.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Notice that John mentions two things here not one: Keep the commandments of God AND the faith of Jesus. Presumably, in your view of things, the commandments of God ARE included in the faith of Jesus but John doesn't assume that keeping the commandments are included in the faith of Jesus.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:

This puts a sharper point on my argument because the woman, in this context, represents Israel. The Jewish believers in Jesus are the ones who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus. John's language is intentional. His wording alerts the readers that he is talking about Jewish believers in Jesus.

you certainly don't keep the testimony of Jesus since you reject firmly what he said. the sabbath is part of the commandments and we have text saying to keep them throughout the bible.

Yes, the Sabbath is part of the commandments, but it isn't part of Jesus' commandments.

 

[Davidstarr]

FInal EDIT: you are really of bad faith, all that he taught means ALl! everything he said and did it is why we have matthew, mark, luke and John.

don't forget john in revelations does speak of the commandments! I guess you ignore that too. even Paul spoke of the commandments that they were holy and just.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon waxed wroth with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, that keep the commandments of God, and hold the testimony of Jesus:

you certainly don't keep the testimony of Jesus since you reject firmly what he said. the sabbath is part of the commandments and we have text saying to keep them throughout the bible.

I think we are just wasting our time.
Some people just refuse to take off their denominational blinders when shown the truth.
Nobody can force them to do so.

It's much easier to listen to someone else who has studied these things in their own church academies and colleges than it is to do Acts 17:11, pick up a bible and read/study for themselves.

Matt 13:13-15 "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

 

[Davidstarr]

We prefer Bibles in English.

KJV is English. Translated directly from the original languages.

All other English versions (as far as I know) are translations of translations of...ad infinitum.

 

[NightTwister]

KJV is English.

Not English that's in use today.

Translated directly from the original languages.

Nope. Much of it was exactly word for word from previous translations.

All other English versions (as far as I know) are translations of translations of...ad infinitum.

All other English translations are not translations of translations. Many are direct translations from the original languages.

 

[Davidstarr]

Not English that's in use today.

Nope. Much of it was exactly word for word from previous translations.

All other English translations are not translations of translations. Many are direct translations from the original languages.

I wont argue with you.
I think you need to look into it a little bit more.
Find out for yourself where all the scores of different English translations actually from.

Then you will be able to make informed intelligent comments on the subject.

 

[Delvianna]

KJV is English. Translated directly from the original languages.

All other English versions (as far as I know) are translations of translations of...ad infinitum.

Thats not true. There's different Hebrew and Greek texts. Depending on the translation, depends on what the version is translating from. But it's not a translation of a translation. It's different surviving texts. Every translation is translating from Hebrew and Greek... but different surviving texts.

KJV - Textus Receptus (Greek)
ESV/NIV/NASB/CSB - Critical Text (Nestle-Aland/UBS) (Greek)

When it comes to Hebrew:
KJV - Ben Chayyim Masoretic Text
NASB - Biblia Hebraica/Masoretic Hebrew Text, with Dead Sea Scrolls
CSB - Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, 5th edition
NIV- Masoretic Hebrew Text as published in Biblia Hebraica and then consulted the Dead Sea Scrolls and other textual witnesses.

As examples.

 

[NightTwister]

I wont argue with you.
I think you need to look into it a little bit more.
Find out for yourself where all the scores of different English translations actually from.

Then you will be able to make informed intelligent comments on the subject.

I think you need to look into it a lot more. These errors certainly aren't helping your credibility.

 

[2Christ]

When Jesus taught his disciples, do you really believe he taught them the Ten Commandments? I don't think so. Think of it like this. When a young person goes off to college they don't expect to learn simple things like the days of the week or that the Moon rises once a month. They learned those things at an early age. Like, Jesus didn't teach his disciples about keeping the Sabbath on a Saturday because they would have known that from childhood.

The REAL teaching of Jesus is his commentary on what it all means. He challenged the current thinking and cultural assumptions his people got wrong. They flattened the law so much that they couldn't distinguish between keeping the Sabbath Day and healing a sick person. They couldn't tell the difference between clean hands and clean hearts.

The Ten Commandments do not fall under the category of "everything" because he didn't teach them something they already knew.

No. But that reinforces my point.

Notice that John mentions two things here not one: Keep the commandments of God AND the faith of Jesus. Presumably, in your view of things, the commandments of God ARE included in the faith of Jesus but John doesn't assume that keeping the commandments are included in the faith of Jesus.




This puts a sharper point on my argument because the woman, in this context, represents Israel. The Jewish believers in Jesus are the ones who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus. John's language is intentional. His wording alerts the readers that he is talking about Jewish believers in Jesus.


Yes, the Sabbath is part of the commandments, but it isn't part of Jesus' commandments.

Roger you are in denial and try to get out of it and keep ypur old doctrine of men that you are accustomed to. Jesus spoke of all 10 commandments and explained the meaning of them all you can find a list of his teachings on the internet. and Yes also about the sabbath, so why do you say he did not? Jesus Magnified the law. why are you so ignorant of what Jesus was teaching, must I find all the verses for you? about john of course you have to keep faith in him always do I need to me mentioned its so obvious. faith is essential I would even say a complete faith to a degree that our lives depend on it and it does. On out own we are nothing and we must Follow Jesus and Obey him not for salvation but because we live him.

Seriously please go back to these books Matt, Luke, MArk and John and see for yourself.

to help you out here is a list that you can consult I found it in 2 seconds on the internet. Jesus spoke of all ten.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
   (Matthew 4:10; Matthew 6:24)
2. You shall not make for yourself a carved image; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.
   (Matthew 4:10; John 4:23–24)
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
   (Matthew 5:33–37; Matthew 6:9)
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
   (Mark 2:27–28; Matthew 12:8; Luke 4:16; Luke 6:9)
5. Honor your father and your mother.
   (Matthew 15:4–6; Matthew 19:19; Mark 7:10–13)
6. You shall not murder.
   (Matthew 5:21–22; Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19)
7. You shall not commit adultery.
   (Matthew 5:27–28; Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19)
8. You shall not steal.
   (Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20)
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
   (Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19)
10. You shall not covet.
    (Luke 12:15; Matthew 6:19–21; Matthew 19:21–24)

Jesus said if you love me keep the Commandments its that simple.

One important point is that Jesus did not simply repeat all ten commandments word-for-word. In several cases, as mentionned, He went deeper into their meaning. For example, He took “You shall not murder” and taught that hatred and unjust anger violate the spirit of that command (Matthew 5:21–22), and He took “You shall not commit adultery” and showed that lustful intent also violates it (Matthew 5:27–28).

You can deny the sabbath all you want but its linked forever to the ten Commandments jesus was teaching anf they are the Covenant, If you love God/Jesus you will follow it..

On this i wish you a good night. i am off for today.

 

[Davidstarr]

Thats not true. There's different Hebrew and Greek texts. Depending on the translation, depends on what the version is translating from. But it's not a translation of a translation. It's different surviving texts. Every translation is translating from Hebrew and Greek... but different surviving texts.

KJV - Textus Receptus (Greek)
ESV/NIV/NASB/CSB - Critical Text (Nestle-Aland/UBS) (Greek)

When it comes to Hebrew:
KJV - Ben Chayyim Masoretic Text
NASB - Biblia Hebraica/Masoretic Hebrew Text, with Dead Sea Scrolls
CSB - Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia, 5th edition
NIV- Masoretic Hebrew Text as published in Biblia Hebraica and then consulted the Dead Sea Scrolls and other textual witnesses.

As examples.

I'm not talking about "different" Hebrews or Greek texts. Those are different translations also.
I said "original" languages. Not translations of translations. Even from one type of Hebrew to another or one type of Greek to another.

And, yes, a lot of English translations are translated from other English versions....

 

[NightTwister]

I'm not talking about "different" Hebrews or Greek texts. Those are different translations also.
I said "original" languages. Not translations of translations. Even from one type of Hebrew to another or one type of Greek to another.

And, yes, a lot of English translations are translated from other English versions....

Hebrew is Hebrew. Greek is Greek. There are various manuscripts of both. Two versions of the scriptures in the same original languages are not "translations." Translation happens from one language to another.

The fact that you don't understand the difference shows that you do not know very much about this at all.

 

[TMS]

Jas 2:10-12
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

This is the 10 commandments.
And James states clearly that if you transgress one of them you transgress all of them.

The sabbath of the 4th commandment one of the 10.

When you fail to keep the 4th commandment you sin as a transgressor of the law.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[Delvianna]

I'm not talking about "different" Hebrews or Greek texts. Those are different translations also.
I said "original" languages. Not translations of translations. Even from one type of Hebrew to another or one type of Greek to another.

And, yes, a lot of English translations are translated from other English versions....

The main ones which are word for word, absolutely not. If you're reading from a paraphrased bible or easy reading, sure. But I wouldn't say "a lot" are just translated from english...

 

[Davidstarr]

The main ones which are word for word, absolutely not. If you're reading from a paraphrased bible or easy reading, sure. But I wouldn't say "a lot" are just translated from english...

That's what I mean.
There are scores of different English translations and they don't agree on everything they say.

Paraphrasing comes from human assumptions of what someone else thinks it should mean. So you get quite a few English versions based almost solely on the denominational beliefs of the translators.

Quoting word for word from the original languages is a totally different matter. It is the only way to know you got the text right even if you don't always understand the meaning.
Somewhere else in the bible it will explain itself.
Always does.

I would actually prefer an English version that includes possible alternate translations of the original Greek and Hebrew because I know many words have multiple meanings.
But so far the best I have found is a KJV study bible with margins for some words and cross references to other verses.

Every time I find verses that seem to conflict each other in what they say I know somewhere along the line I am misunderstanding something or making too many unwarranted assumptions.
Then I go back to the original languages and add in alternate translations of words.
PLUS searching the bible for more information on whatever subject is under consideration.

 

[Inquisitor]

I will still include the teachings of Jesus and Paul's letter to the Romans.

Of course you will quote Romans even though Romans is discussing the law and the Jews.

Quoting from Matthew is simply quoting the law because Matthew is describing Jesus in Israel.

You fail to understand the blood covenant (the law) that Israel was in contract to obey.

I asked AI to flesh this argument out.

Covenant theology and legal jurisdiction: a law is only binding on the specific parties who legally entered into the contract.

From a strict juristic and covenantal perspective, your point is legally precise:

• The Jurisdictional Boundary: The Mosaic Covenant, which includes the Ten Commandments, was an exclusive constitution given to the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai.
• The Legal Mechanism: This legal framework was sealed with the blood of oxen (Exodus 24:8), binding only the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob under its jurisdiction.
• Gentile Exclusion: No Gentile nation was present at Sinai, nor did they agree to the terms ("All that the Lord has spoken we will do"). Consequently, they were never under the legal jurisdiction of the Sinai covenant, meaning they were never legally obligated to keep the Seventh-day Sabbath or the specific civil statutes of Israel.

The reason this distinction causes so much confusion is a systemic blurring of the lines between theological morality and legal jurisdiction. While many people look at the content of the laws (like prohibitions against murder or theft) and conclude the law must be universal, they overlook the jurisdictional framework that enforced it. Legally speaking, a person cannot violate a contract they were never a party to.

Do you understand why you are wrong?

The law was not given to the Gentile nations and the Gentile nations were not obligated to obey it.

It does not matter if the law is moral in places because the legal jurisdiction of the covenant covers only Israel.

It also is pointless to say the law in places displays attributes of God because the covenant itself, defines which parties are
in the contract. The Mt Sinai law was exclusively given to Israel.

 

[Freed18]

May I suggest you read members more carefully?

I'm fairly new here, and can't quit read people yet.
Have mercy on the nubes'.

 

[Davidstarr]

Of course you will quote Romans even though Romans is discussing the law and the Jews.

Quoting from Matthew is simply quoting the law because Matthew is describing Jesus in Israel.

You fail to understand the blood covenant (the law) that Israel was in contract to obey.

I asked AI to flesh this argument out.

Covenant theology and legal jurisdiction: a law is only binding on the specific parties who legally entered into the contract.

From a strict juristic and covenantal perspective, your point is legally precise:

• The Jurisdictional Boundary: The Mosaic Covenant, which includes the Ten Commandments, was an exclusive constitution given to the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai.
• The Legal Mechanism: This legal framework was sealed with the blood of oxen (Exodus 24:8), binding only the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob under its jurisdiction.
• Gentile Exclusion: No Gentile nation was present at Sinai, nor did they agree to the terms ("All that the Lord has spoken we will do"). Consequently, they were never under the legal jurisdiction of the Sinai covenant, meaning they were never legally obligated to keep the Seventh-day Sabbath or the specific civil statutes of Israel.

The reason this distinction causes so much confusion is a systemic blurring of the lines between theological morality and legal jurisdiction. While many people look at the content of the laws (like prohibitions against murder or theft) and conclude the law must be universal, they overlook the jurisdictional framework that enforced it. Legally speaking, a person cannot violate a contract they were never a party to.

Do you understand why you are wrong?

The law was not given to the Gentile nations and the Gentile nations were not obligated to obey it.

It does not matter if the law is moral in places because the legal jurisdiction of the covenant covers only Israel.

It also is pointless to say the law in places displays attributes of God because the covenant itself, defines which parties are
in the contract. The Mt Sinai law was exclusively given to Israel.

I am not a Jewish Christian. I am Gentile Christian. So I don't have to keep the 10 commandments?

Isn't the Christian God the same God as the Jewish God? He Himself says He does not change.

I thought God was not a respecter of person. I thought there is no difference between Jew or Gentile if you are Christian. At least that's what the bible says.

So Jews must obey the law that says though shalt not make (or worship) graven images, shall not murder, shall not commit adultery.
As a Gentile Christian what must I do to show I am not Judaizing? I am NOT keeping their 10 commandments?

Do you see where this is leading?
The Catholic Church gets it.
Look at their idols, coffers, crusades, Inquisition.
Would you leave your under aged children alone with a Catholic priest for days/weeks at a time?

 

[Roger316]

Roger you are in denial and try to get out of it and keep ypur old doctrine of men that you are accustomed to. Jesus spoke of all 10 commandments and explained the meaning of them all you can find a list of his teachings on the internet. and Yes also about the sabbath, so why do you say he did not? Jesus Magnified the law. why are you so ignorant of what Jesus was teaching, must I find all the verses for you? about john of course you have to keep faith in him always do I need to me mentioned its so obvious. faith is essential I would even say a complete faith to a degree that our lives depend on it and it does. On out own we are nothing and we must Follow Jesus and Obey him not for salvation but because we live him.

Seriously please go back to these books Matt, Luke, MArk and John and see for yourself.

to help you out here is a list that you can consult I found it in 2 seconds on the internet. Jesus spoke of all ten.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
   (Matthew 4:10; Matthew 6:24)
2. You shall not make for yourself a carved image; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.
   (Matthew 4:10; John 4:23–24)
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
   (Matthew 5:33–37; Matthew 6:9)
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
   (Mark 2:27–28; Matthew 12:8; Luke 4:16; Luke 6:9)
5. Honor your father and your mother.
   (Matthew 15:4–6; Matthew 19:19; Mark 7:10–13)
6. You shall not murder.
   (Matthew 5:21–22; Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19)
7. You shall not commit adultery.
   (Matthew 5:27–28; Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19)
8. You shall not steal.
   (Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19; Luke 18:20)
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
   (Matthew 19:18; Mark 10:19)
10. You shall not covet.
    (Luke 12:15; Matthew 6:19–21; Matthew 19:21–24)

Jesus said if you love me keep the Commandments its that simple.

One important point is that Jesus did not simply repeat all ten commandments word-for-word. In several cases, as mentionned, He went deeper into their meaning. For example, He took “You shall not murder” and taught that hatred and unjust anger violate the spirit of that command (Matthew 5:21–22), and He took “You shall not commit adultery” and showed that lustful intent also violates it (Matthew 5:27–28).

You can deny the sabbath all you want but its linked forever to the ten Commandments jesus was teaching anf they are the Covenant, If you love God/Jesus you will follow it..

On this i wish you a good night. i am off for today.

You seem to have missed my point, so I will repeat it again. I don't deny that Jesus taught about the Sabbath. I deny that Jesus taught his disciples to keep the Sabbath. Their parents taught them to keep the Sabbath. Keeping the Sabbath day is not among the things that Jesus wanted his apostles to teach future disciples. Jesus wanted his apostles to teach the disciples HIS word such as the fact that the Sabbath was made for man, the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Accordingly, even though Gentiles are not obligated to rest every seventh day, they are obligated to remember that the Sabbath was made for man, and that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.