Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[Cameron143]

To me it is all of human history from the time it was written until the time the physical Kingdom is established on Earth. What's that saying? Prophecy is history in the making, and History is prophecy fulfilled ? Or something like that To me chapter 9 is so detailed about Mohammed it can be nothing else. But that is just my opinion, I know no one on here will agree, because most think everything is in the past or everything is in the future. Just chipping in my two cents

The books in the Bible are written to specific audiences. They have real meaning to those to whom they were written unless otherwise stated. One should assume their message is for the audience they were written to.

That said, every generation can make applications from the scripture, but to assume the details in the books do not apply to its audience is without merit.

 

[Cameron143]

Why would the Jews be told in Daniel 2 and 7 about the succession of Empires? Because at the end of everything we have the Kingdom of God, Paradise restored, the resurrection etc

That's not what those chapters teach exactly, but you are on the right path. God's kingdom was established in the 1st century definitely with the coming of Messiah. He said so...the kingdom is at hand. And it did begin in Jerusalem with the early church. But you are looking for a literal physical kingdom when the kingdom is in you, and me, and every other Christian. And like the mustard seed, it began small and has been growing ever since.

 

[WayneNSO]

The books in the Bible are written to specific audiences. They have real meaning to those to whom they were written unless otherwise stated. One should assume their message is for the audience they were written to.

That said, every generation can make applications from the scripture, but to assume the details in the books do not apply to its audience is without merit.

Of course it applied to those reading it at the time. That is why the early church fathers prayed for the Roman Emperors, because they knew that according to the Revelation, once they were gone, the man of sin would appear, which did happen, the Papacy sat in the seat of the Roman Emperors, keeping the divided Empire together under then. Even the early popes agreed with the interpretation.

The church at the time might not of understood everything but the meanings unfold through history. Instead of having prophets like ancient Israel and Judah had throughout their times, we have the revelation in their place, speaking to each generation.

 

[WayneNSO]

That's not what those chapters teach exactly, but you are on the right path. God's kingdom was established in the 1st century definitely with the coming of Messiah. He said so...the kingdom is at hand. And it did begin in Jerusalem with the early church. But you are looking for a literal physical kingdom when the kingdom is in you, and me, and every other Christian. And like the mustard seed, it began small and has been growing ever since.

I agree that is when it began, but we do not have the complete fulfilment yet - else why do we still have death ? Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire when the Kingdom and resurrection is established. If we have that now, why do things wax worse and worse and why do we still have death ?

 

[WayneNSO]

Anyway this is all off topic for the OP, I should of stayed quiet

 

[God-fearing]

If God knows the end from the beginning which can not be debated then certainly he knows this modern Israel.
So what does he say about Israel?

A Chosen People​

Deu 7:6 For you are a holy people to the Lord your God: marked out by the Lord your God to be his special people out of all the nations on the face of the earth.

Deu 7:7 The Lord did not give you his love or take you for himself because you were more in number than any other people; for you were the smallest of the nations:

Deu 7:8 But because of his love for you, and in order to keep his oath to your fathers, the Lord took you out with the strength of his hand, making you free from the prison-house and from the hand of Pharaoh, king of Egypt.

Deu 7:9 Be certain, then, that the Lord your God is God; whose faith and mercy are unchanging, who keeps his word through a thousand generations to those who have love for him and keep his laws;

Deu 7:10 Rewarding his haters to their face with destruction; he will have no mercy on his hater, but will give him open punishment.

Deu 7:11 So keep the orders and the laws and the decisions which I give you today and do them.

Deu 7:12 And it will be, that if you give attention to these decisions and keep and do them, then the Lord will keep his agreement with you and his mercy, as he said in his oath to your fathers.

Deu 7:13 And he will give you his love, blessing you and increasing you: he will send his blessing on the offspring of your body and the fruit of your land, your grain and your wine and your oil, the increase of your cattle and the young of your flock, in the land which by his oath to your fathers he undertook to give you.

Deu 7:14 You will have greater blessings than any other people: no male or female among you or among your cattle will be without offspring.

Deu 7:15 And the Lord will take away from you all disease, and will not put on you any of the evil diseases of Egypt which you have seen, but will put them on your haters.

 

[Cameron143]

Of course it applied to those reading it at the time. That is why the early church fathers prayed for the Roman Emperors, because they knew that according to the Revelation, once they were gone, the man of sin would appear, which did happen, the Papacy sat in the seat of the Roman Emperors, keeping the divided Empire together under then. Even the early popes agreed with the interpretation.

The church at the time might not of understood everything but the meanings unfold through history. Instead of having prophets like ancient Israel and Judah had throughout their times, we have the revelation in their place, speaking to each generation.

You don't actually understand what the book of Revelation is about. When I have time, I'll break it down for you. But in the meantime, what is the book of Deuteronomy about? If you don't understand the book of Deuteronomy, you will never understand the book of Revelation.

 

[Cameron143]

I agree that is when it began, but we do not have the complete fulfilment yet - else why do we still have death ? Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire when the Kingdom and resurrection is established. If we have that now, why do things wax worse and worse and why do we still have death ?

The kingdom of God came definitively with Christ. It has been coming progressively since. And it will come consumatively when Christ returns. This is what history is building towards.

 

[WayneNSO]

The kingdom of God came definitively with Christ. It has been coming progressively since. And it will come consumatively when Christ returns. This is what history is building towards.

I do not disagree, I thought I stated that in my post

 

[WayneNSO]

You don't actually understand what the book of Revelation is about. When I have time, I'll break it down for you. But in the meantime, what is the book of Deuteronomy about? If you don't understand the book of Deuteronomy, you will never understand the book of Revelation.

I think it is you that does not understand, but I would like to see how you break it down, maybe start a new thread when you do ?

 

[Revelation1v8]

That's your evidence? Actually knowledge did increase. Much greater understanding came with the teachings of Jesus and the disciples. Much more of God's redemptive plans were made known.

You still haven't given any support for anything being imminent and coming to pass circa 95 AD.

Yes, they were made known to the Gentile nations, but not the Jewish nation of Israel. That's why Romans 11:25 tells you that the Jews have been temporarily blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, which isn't complete yet. Once it does, Jesus will turn back His focus on the Jews.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, they were made known to the Gentile nations, but not the Jewish nation of Israel. That's why Romans 11:25 tells you that the Jews have been temporarily blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, which isn't complete yet. Once it does, Jesus will turn back His focus on the Jews.

So you agree it was a time of the expansion of knowledge?

 

[Churchgoer]

Yes, they were made known to the Gentile nations, but not the Jewish nation of Israel. That's why Romans 11:25 tells you that the Jews have been temporarily blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, which isn't complete yet. Once it does, Jesus will turn back His focus on the Jews.

Just curious, how to explain thousands of ethnic jews that believes in Jesus, where do they fit in?
Peter, Paul, john... even gave their earthly life for Jesus.

 

[Revelation1v8]

To me it is all of human history from the time it was written until the time the physical Kingdom is established on Earth. What's that saying? Prophecy is history in the making, and History is prophecy fulfilled ? Or something like that To me chapter 9 is so detailed about Mohammed it can be nothing else. But that is just my opinion, I know no one on here will agree, because most think everything is in the past or everything is in the future. Just chipping in my two cents

Yes, the Bible shows us how all of history will unfold and much of it is repeated. I can definitely see how you came to the conclusion that Daniel 9 would be talking about the Muslim nations.

Daniel 9:16 - O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
Especially when you compare it to what Zechariah 12 says:

Zechariah 12:3-4, 8-10

3 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.

4 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Just curious, how to explain thousands of ethnic jews that believes in Jesus, where do they fit in?
Peter, Paul, john... even gave their earthly life for Jesus.

Jesus told His Apostles that when He returned that He would set up an earthly kingdom where they would be judges over the 12 tribes of Israel. We know that this is an earthly kingdom because there will be no need for judges or discipline in the heavenly permanent kingdom. (Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:29-30).

For those who are beheaded for the Word of God in Revelation 20, it also says that they will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. They too will be working as priests and judges in the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[Churchgoer]

Jesus told His Apostles that when He returned that He would set up an earthly kingdom where they would be judges over the 12 tribes of Israel. We know that this is an earthly kingdom because there will be no need for judges or discipline in the heavenly permanent kingdom. (Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:29-30).

For those who are beheaded for the Word of God in Revelation 20, it also says that they will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. They too will be working as priests and judges in the Millennial Kingdom.

So within ethnic jews, there are rankings?

1. believe in Jesus as peter... do
2. blinded and die before earthly kingdom set up, means they are heading to hell.
3. blinded and will live to see the earth kingdom, all will be saved.

Feel sorry for the group 2.
If group 3 are all holy in earthly kingdom, why need judges?

 

[Revelation1v8]

So within ethnic jews, there are rankings?

1. believe in Jesus as peter... do
2. blinded and die before earthly kingdom set up, means they are heading to hell.
3. blinded and will live to see the earth kingdom, all will be saved.

Feel sorry for the group 2.
If group 3 are all holy in earthly kingdom, why need judges?

The Bible tells us that when Jesus returns to earth, that He will be returning with His saints in Zechariah 14:5, 1 Thessalonians 3:13, and Jude 1:14. They will return to earth to help Jesus set up His Millennial Kingdom for those who make it through the final Great Tribulation and the Sheep & Goat Judgement.

Edit to Add: Isaiah 65 shows us when Jesus returns to Jerusalem all will know who He is and He will allow the ones who survive to living extremely long lives and to repopulate the earth during the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth. Revelation 20 shows us that Satan will be bound to the Abyss during the 1,000 years so he can't influence the nations or people. They will live peaceful and mostly righteous lives during this time. Those who sin will be judged immediately. Once Satan is released from the Abyss, he will gather one last army against God's people, but He will fail and He will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Churchgoer]

The Bible tells us that when Jesus returns to earth, that He will be returning with His saints in Zechariah 14:5, 1 Thessalonians 3:13, and Jude 1:14. They will return to earth to help Jesus set up His Millennial Kingdom for those who make it through the final Great Tribulation and the Sheep & Goat Judgement.

though we hold different views, I appreciate your explanation and not do any name calling.
Let's just say you are entitled to the earthly kingdom view, but as a believer, we are only called to follow Jesus commandments, correct?

As I said it before, Jesus didn't want our help to nail him on cross. We are called to act as Peter, Mary, Joseph, not Judah iscariot.

 

[Revelation1v8]

though we hold different views, I appreciate your explanation and not do any name calling.
Let's just say you are entitled to the earthly kingdom view, but as a believer, we are only called to follow Jesus commandments, correct?

As I said it before, Jesus didn't want our help to nail him on cross. We are called to act as Peter, Mary, Joseph, not Judah iscariot.

As believers, we are called to follow Jesus, ALL of God's Word, and His commandments (two of which are listed below). We are to watch for His return, which is another commandment made clear in the parables of the Wheat & Tares and the Ten Virgins.

Matthew 4:4 - But he answered and said, IT IS WRITTEN, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4 - And Jesus answered him, saying, IT IS WRITTEN, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

 

[Churchgoer]

As believers, we are called to follow Jesus, ALL of God's Word, and His commandments (two of which are listed below). We are to watch for His return, which is another commandment made clear in the parables of the Wheat & Tares and the Ten Virgins.

Matthew 4:4 - But he answered and said, IT IS WRITTEN, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4 - And Jesus answered him, saying, IT IS WRITTEN, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Definitely agree on this.

That's the reason I say no matter which view one believes, we are not to support murdering, stealing, sexual immorality....stuff.

Jesus don't need us to behave as Judah to help the process.