Why the Old Law/Covenant Does not apply to NT Christians..

[Drich]

Note I did not say the Old law was invalid, so shelf the Mat 5 "I did not come to abolish the law" argument, and read the WHOLE OP if you want to discuss the points I will be making.

The Old (OC) and New covenants (NC) are contracts, that state do ABC and you will receive XYZ. Under the OC If you follow the OT laws according to Deut 6 and 7 you will receive Good Health, Wealth, God's protection, Long life and a piece of the promise Land.

...That's it...

There was no promise of eternal life as the afterlife was unknown, or not even mentioned in the Torah/When the law was given. Eg when the OC (Old covenant/contract) was established. Eternal life was never part of the deal. Even In Jesus' time the idea of the after life was highly debated. In fact this was the primary difference between the pharisees and the sadducees. The pharisees believed in the afterlife while the sadducees did not. Now because the Sadducees represented the temple leadership, the official position of the temple during the time of Christ was that there was no afterlife.

Technically meaning, following the old contract only buys you Good Health, Wealth, God's protection, Long life and a piece of the promise Land. If that's all that interests you, and you want no claim (In so far as the old contract stipulates) on eternal life, then by all means follow the OC.. But, there in lies the problem.. You can't follow the OC as 1/3 of the laws given pertain to temple/tabernacle worship. Meaning without a sanctified temple or wilderness tabernacle, the laws can not be completely followed. Which puts you in violation of the whole law. (You are in breech of the old contract.) Because you do not get partial credit for following 2/3s of the law.

This is why Jesus says in mat 5 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Eg, if you are going to follow the old law/contract you are responsible for every part of it.

That said, Not being able to perform the rites and rituals (which includes the animal sacrifice needed for the forgiveness of sin) puts the follower of that law/contact in violation of the whole law as no part of that contract has 'disappeared.' (Just because the temple was destroyed 2000 years ago, doesn't mean, the followers of the law are any less responsible for those temple sacrifices and mandated offerings.

Which is why I believe the temple was destroyed in 70AD. So that no one could use the OC as check list theology to God. A honest seeker of God has to find another way to Him as sin can not be absolved as stated under that contract.

This is also why God created a new covenant/contract with us. So, New rules + New contract = New Reward. New reward = eternal life.

So inorder to qualify for this new reward means 0 dependance on the old system, but again the old system remains in place if for no other reason that to push those who would follow it to Christ (Because there is no temple, one can not follow the old covenant.)

So for those who would pick and choose what they would follow out of the old law (Keeping the sabbath, dietary restrictions, tithing etc etc) but ignore the mandated pilgrimages to the temple or the sacrifices required in a sanctified temple. they are in violation of the law because
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

 

[Drich]

bump

 

[GWH]

Note I did not say the Old law was invalid, so shelf the Mat 5 "I did not come to abolish the law" argument, and read the WHOLE OP if you want to discuss the points I will be making.

The Old (OC) and New covenants (NC) are contracts, that state do ABC and you will receive XYZ. Under the OC If you follow the OT laws according to Deut 6 and 7 you will receive Good Health, Wealth, God's protection, Long life and a piece of the promise Land.

...That's it...

There was no promise of eternal life as the afterlife was unknown, or not even mentioned in the Torah/When the law was given. Eg when the OC (Old covenant/contract) was established. Eternal life was never part of the deal. Even In Jesus' time the idea of the after life was highly debated. In fact this was the primary difference between the pharisees and the sadducees. The pharisees believed in the afterlife while the sadducees did not. Now because the Sadducees represented the temple leadership, the official position of the temple during the time of Christ was that there was no afterlife.

Technically meaning, following the old contract only buys you Good Health, Wealth, God's protection, Long life and a piece of the promise Land. If that's all that interests you, and you want no claim (In so far as the old contract stipulates) on eternal life, then by all means follow the OC.. But, there in lies the problem.. You can't follow the OC as 1/3 of the laws given pertain to temple/tabernacle worship. Meaning without a sanctified temple or wilderness tabernacle, the laws can not be completely followed. Which puts you in violation of the whole law. (You are in breech of the old contract.) Because you do not get partial credit for following 2/3s of the law.

This is why Jesus says in mat 5 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Eg, if you are going to follow the old law/contract you are responsible for every part of it.

That said, Not being able to perform the rites and rituals (which includes the animal sacrifice needed for the forgiveness of sin) puts the follower of that law/contact in violation of the whole law as no part of that contract has 'disappeared.' (Just because the temple was destroyed 2000 years ago, doesn't mean, the followers of the law are any less responsible for those temple sacrifices and mandated offerings.

Which is why I believe the temple was destroyed in 70AD. So that no one could use the OC as check list theology to God. A honest seeker of God has to find another way to Him as sin can not be absolved as stated under that contract.

This is also why God created a new covenant/contract with us. So, New rules + New contract = New Reward. New reward = eternal life.

So inorder to qualify for this new reward means 0 dependance on the old system, but again the old system remains in place if for no other reason that to push those who would follow it to Christ (Because there is no temple, one can not follow the old covenant.)

So for those who would pick and choose what they would follow out of the old law (Keeping the sabbath, dietary restrictions, tithing etc etc) but ignore the mandated pilgrimages to the temple or the sacrifices required in a sanctified temple. they are in violation of the law because
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Good point, and the passage in Scripture that supports this view is Heb. 7:11-10:1.
A term for this view instead of "invalidates" is "supersedes".

 

[Drich]

Never made those connections in hebrews before thank you

 

[tablet123]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is spiritual, not natural, and holy, just, and good.

Which are the moral laws, laws of love, which always have to be obeyed.

Which the 10 commandments are moral laws, laws of love.

So those laws carry in to the Old Testament, or any laws that are moral and of love.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus told the rich man to inherit eternal life he had to obey the laws that have to do with loving people.

Which those laws were given in the Old Testament and apply in the New Testament.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The physical ordinances do not apply in the New Testament.

 

[timf]

This is also why God created a new covenant/contract with us.

The New covenant will be established with Israel;

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Christians today have the opportunity to be saved by the gospel of grace given to Paul for the gentiles (however Jews also can be saved by this today). We do not have a covenant relationship of God as when we trust in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus to pay for our sins, we are placed into the body of Christ and already have eternal life.

The New covenant with Israel will be established in the earthly kingdom at the end of the tribulation when the faithful remnant f Israel who have been supernaturally protected by God for the last three and a half years will be more receptive to the kingdom offer.

 

[ScooterJackson]

Note I did not say the Old law was invalid, so shelf the Mat 5 "I did not come to abolish the law"

And then later the Father told Jesus to tell the Holy Spirit to have Paul write this:

Hebrews 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
(God said He would make a New Covenant - see Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath Jesus obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also Jesus is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

In the end those trying to live under the law of Moses are no accepted by the Lord as they once were back before the law of Moses was replaced by the Law of Christ which is the New Covenant based on better promises

God’s people are no longer living under the Law of Moses. Now God’s people are living under the Law of Christ (also called the law of liberty, law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus – see Galatians 6:2, 1 Corinthians 9:21, James 2:12, James 1:25, Romans 8:2)

 

[GWH]

The New covenant will be established with Israel;

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Christians today have the opportunity to be saved by the gospel of grace given to Paul for the gentiles (however Jews also can be saved by this today). We do not have a covenant relationship of God as when we trust in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus to pay for our sins, we are placed into the body of Christ and already have eternal life.

The New covenant with Israel will be established in the earthly kingdom at the end of the tribulation when the faithful remnant f Israel who have been supernaturally protected by God for the last three and a half years will be more receptive to the kingdom offer.

The Gospel/NT was a mystery not revealed until it was preached by Paul, who taught that Jews and Gentiles are now saved the same way, via saving faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Rom. 3:20-5:11, Gal. 3:38). What happens in the future will not change God's requirement for salvation.

 

[ScooterJackson]

The Gospel/NT was a mystery not revealed until it was preached by Paul, who taught that Jews and Gentiles are now saved the same way, via saving faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Rom. 3:20-5:11, Gal. 3:38). What happens in the future will not change God's requirement for salvation.

The New Testament started being taught by the Lord to mankind with the ministry of John the Baptist which is when the law and the prophets stopped being taught

Luke 16:16 - The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it

That's Jesus speaking in Luke 16:16 and so many today ignore Jesus as though he doesn't know what He's talking about. That's what listening to false teachers does to people, it leads them away from the Lord.

 

[Dino246]

And then later the Father told Jesus to tell the Holy Spirit...

Where is that in Scripture?

 

[ScooterJackson]

Where is that in Scripture?

John 16:13 - Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.

*Jesus said He only does and speaks what He sees and hears from the Father (John 12:49, John 5:19, John 8:28, John 8:38)

Romans 8:14 - For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

 

[Dino246]

John 16:13 - Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.

*Jesus said He only does and speaks what He sees and hears from the Father (John 12:49, John 5:19, John 8:28, John 8:38)

Romans 8:14 - For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

With respect, these verses don’t support the chain of events you asserted.

 

[Seeker47]

....sometimes, I just get so tired!

 

[Revelation1v8]

The Gospel/NT was a mystery not revealed until it was preached by Paul, who taught that Jews and Gentiles are now saved the same way, via saving faith in Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Rom. 3:20-5:11, Gal. 3:38). What happens in the future will not change God's requirement for salvation.

No, but how God goes about revealing himself to people is different according to Romans 11:25 and Zechariah 13:8-9.

 

[Soyeong]

The Old (OC) and New covenants (NC) are contracts, that state do ABC and you will receive XYZ. Under the OC If you follow the OT laws according to Deut 6 and 7 you will receive Good Health, Wealth, God's protection, Long life and a piece of the promise Land.

There is a reality of what is true about the nature of who God is that was true before God made any covenants with man, that has been revealed through His covenants, and that is true independently of which covenant someone is under, if any. God's character traits are eternal, so everything that the Mosaic Covenant teaches us about how to embody His character traits is eternally and cumulatively valid. God's laws are not arbitrarily up in the air with each covenant such that it might become righteous to commit murder or sinful to do charity this time, but rather all of God's covenants are made with the same God with the same character traits and therefore the same eternally and cumulatively valid instructions for how to embody His character traits. The only way that the New Covenant could involve following a different set of laws would be if it were made with a different god with a different set of character traits.

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so I don't see how it is justifiable for anyone to take the position that the being under the New Covenant means that we no longer need to follow the Torah. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His glory (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for his followers to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), but he set, so he established the New Covenant because he wanted us to refuse to follow his example, but Jesus established the New Covenant so that we would reject what he taught and do something else instead? Jesus established the New Covenant so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused it to be needed in the first place?

There was no promise of eternal life as the afterlife was unknown, or not even mentioned in the Torah/When the law was given. Eg when the OC (Old covenant/contract) was established. Eternal life was never part of the deal. Even In Jesus' time the idea of the after life was highly debated. In fact this was the primary difference between the pharisees and the sadducees. The pharisees believed in the afterlife while the sadducees did not.

You acknowledging that the Pharisees under the Mosaic Covenant had a belief in the afterlife is counter to your claim that the afterlife is not part of the Mosaic Covenant. Likewise, if eternal life were not part of the Mosaic Covenant, then people under it would not have had grounds to ask Jesus about the way to inherit eternal life, such as in Luke 10:25-28, where Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah. In Proverbs 3:18, the Torah is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it.

The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by having the experience of embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.

Technically meaning, following the old contract only buys you Good Health, Wealth, God's protection, Long life and a piece of the promise Land. If that's all that interests you, and you want no claim (In so far as the old contract stipulates) on eternal life, then by all means follow the OC.. But, there in lies the problem.. You can't follow the OC as 1/3 of the laws given pertain to temple/tabernacle worship. Meaning without a sanctified temple or wilderness tabernacle, the laws can not be completely followed. Which puts you in violation of the whole law. (You are in breech of the old contract.) Because you do not get partial credit for following 2/3s of the law.

The Bible repeatedly connects long life with eternal life (Proverbs 3:16-18). It is not the case that if we can't follow all 613 laws, then we should refuse to obey all of them. There can be either legitimate or illegitimate reasons for not following every single law. For example, in Deuteronomy 17:18, it specifically instructs the king to write a copy of the Torah, so everyone who is not the king has a legitimate reasons for not being able to follow that law. Likewise, not even Jesus experienced obedience to the laws in regard to giving birth or to having a period. The Israelites were given a number of laws that had the condition "when you enter the land..." while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years, so they had a legitimate reason for not following those laws while they were outside the land. When the Israelites were exiled to Babylon after the destruction of the 1st Temple, then the condition for their turn to the land was to return to obedience to the Torah, which contains laws that they could not follow while they were in exile, yet if they repent while they are in exile, then God will forgive them (1 Kings 8:46-51). So the fact that there are many laws that we can't currently obey does not mean that we should not be faithful to obey the laws that we can get to obey. On the other hand, if someone were the king and they chose not to write a copy of the Torah, then that is what would put them in violation of their contract.

Eg, if you are going to follow the old law/contract you are responsible for every part of it.

Jesus and everyone that he spoke to in Matthew 5 was under the Mosaic Covenant and he did not offer them a choice of whether they are going to follow the Torah.

That said, Not being able to perform the rites and rituals (which includes the animal sacrifice needed for the forgiveness of sin) puts the follower of that law/contact in violation of the whole law as no part of that contract has 'disappeared.' (Just because the temple was destroyed 2000 years ago, doesn't mean, the followers of the law are any less responsible for those temple sacrifices and mandated offerings.

Many of God's laws have conditions under which they should be obeyed and someone is not in violation of the law if that condition is not met. Laws in regard to Temple practice require there to be a Temple in which to practice them.

Which is why I believe the temple was destroyed in 70AD. So that no one could use the OC as check list theology to God. A honest seeker of God has to find another way to Him as sin can not be absolved as stated under that contract.

The Torah was not given as a checklist but as a way to connect with God in every aspect of our lives. The way to God is not by refusing to walk in His way.

This is also why God created a new covenant/contract with us. So, New rules + New contract = New Reward. New reward = eternal life.

Nowhere, does the Bible state that the New Covenant involves following a new set of rules and a new reward of eternal life. In Deuteronomy 30, it forms the basis for the New Covenant by prophesying about a time when the Israelites would return from exile, God would circumcise their hearts, and they would return to obedience to the Torah, which is what Jeremiah 31:33 and Ezekiel 36:26-27 are in regard to. It was a sin to commit adultery before God made the Mosaic Covenant (Genesis 39:9), it was a sin during it, it is a sin after it has become obsolete, and it will always be a sin no matter how many covenants God makes. What is sin is dependent upon what is contrary to God's character traits, not on which covenant we happen to be under.

So inorder to qualify for this new reward means 0 dependance on the old system, but again the old system remains in place if for no other reason that to push those who would follow it to Christ

Again Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah (Luke 10:25-28). God's Word leads us to God's Word made flesh because he is the embodiment of it and it was given in order to teach us how to know him through following his example of embodying it, but the reason why it leads us to him is not so that we can then reject all that he is and go back to being doers of what the Torah reveals to be wickedness.

So for those who would pick and choose what they would follow

Picking and choosing refers to someone illegitimately choosing which laws to follow based on what they want to do, not to someone legitimately not following laws because they can't follow them.

 

[ScooterJackson]

....sometimes, I just get so tired!

Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might - Ephesians 6:10

Abiding In Christ (doing His Word) is the only way to not be tired, broke, busted, and disgusted

 

[Seeker47]

Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might - Ephesians 6:10

Abiding In Christ (doing His Word) is the only way to not be tired, broke, busted, and disgusted

I know, and you are correct. Thank you for the encouragement. I sometimes wonder if the human side of Christ didn't sometimes get tired and discouraged too.

 

[ScooterJackson]

I know, and you are correct. Thank you for the encouragement. I sometimes wonder if the human side of Christ didn't sometimes get tired and discouraged too.

He got tired physically yes, but never discouraged because He knew Who He was, He knew His calling, and He knew He was already victorious and would never fail.

We should all follow Him in this and ditch the pity parties and discouragement.

DIS courage means to stop being courageous. That's not what mature Christians engage in as they experienced that in the past and refuse to allow the devil to trick them in to stop being courageous

 

[Drich]

There is a reality of what is true about the nature of who God is that was true before God made any covenants with man, that has been revealed through His covenants, and that is true independently of which covenant someone is under, if any.

...and you, just so happen to know of His 'true qualities' independant of the false qualities found in the covenants of scripture? That's a big red flag..

God's character traits are eternal,

But that does not mean those traits are the traits you've identified.

so everything that the Mosaic Covenant teaches us about how to embody His character traits is eternally and cumulatively valid.

Can you provide an example of one of these covenantal traits. if so can you provide BCV (Book, chapter, verse) that says God must remain in the box the traits you have identified puts Him in?

For example God self identifies as a Jealous God many different time in the OT. God is also described as Vengeful.

Now, according to what you just said in the above statement, God can only exhibit these traits. Yet If you keep reading one will come across passages where God shows Himself to be the opposite of these self identifying traits.

What I am pointing out is that God is bigger than any of the traits He has claimed or has been assigned to Him. While God Himself does not change, His 'mood' which produce those 'traits' does change.

God's laws are not arbitrarily up in the air with each covenant such that it might become righteous to commit murder or sinful to do charity this time, but rather all of God's covenants are made with the same God with the same character traits and therefore the same eternally and cumulatively valid instructions for how to embody His character traits.

Straw man argument. No one suggested any of this.

The only way that the New Covenant could involve following a different set of laws would be if it were made with a different god with a different set of character traits.

Not true. Jesus Clearly in Mat 5 extends the law to include person thought/feelings. Prior to this the law was based on works alone. Things people where either required to do, or things people where required to refrain from. In Mat 5 Jesus extended the law to now include thoughts and feeling making the law a completely different animal. As Hatred is now akin to Murder, Where a lustful thought is a kin to adultery etc etc. In what court of law could you say that hatred and murder where equal in the eyes of the law unless you threw out our current system of morality and replaced it with something else?

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so I don't see how it is justifiable for anyone to take the position that the being under the New Covenant means that we no longer need to follow the Torah.

Where did I say this?

I never said we should not follow the torah. In fact I said the oppsite. I said if you fail to follow every part of the torah then you are in violation of breaking all of the law.

James 2:10

Even if you fail to obey only one rule in God's Law, it means that you are guilty. It is the same as if you fail to obey all God's Law.

I have said multiple times that these laws include the laws pertaining to temple sacrifice and worship. Meaning because no one has kept the temple laws rites or rituals in the law 2000 years, that means No one has been able to keep the whole law which is a requirement according to James 2:10

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His glory (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting

You acknowledging that the Pharisees under the Mosaic Covenant had a belief in the afterlife is counter to your claim that the afterlife is not part of the Mosaic Covenant.

Actually I specifically made no such claim. Perhaps you should go back and re-read what I said.

Likewise, if eternal life were not part of the Mosaic Covenant, then people under it would not have had grounds to ask Jesus about the way to inherit eternal life, such as in Luke 10:25-28, where Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah. In Proverbs 3:18, the Torah is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it.

The Hebrew word “yada” refers to intimate relationships/knowledge gained by experience, such as with Genesis 4:1 where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. God’s way is the way to know (yada) Him and Jesus by having the experience of embodying His character traits, which is the narrow way to eternal life (John 17:3). For example, in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being doers of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Torah is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life.


The Bible repeatedly connects long life with eternal life (Proverbs 3:16-18). It is not the case that if we can't follow all 613 laws, then we should refuse to obey all of them. There can be either legitimate or illegitimate reasons for not following every single law. For example, in Deuteronomy 17:18, it specifically instructs the king to write a copy of the Torah, so everyone who is not the king has a legitimate reasons for not being able to follow that law. Likewise, not even Jesus experienced obedience to the laws in regard to giving birth or to having a period. The Israelites were given a number of laws that had the condition "when you enter the land..." while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years, so they had a legitimate reason for not following those laws while they were outside the land. When the Israelites were exiled to Babylon after the destruction of the 1st Temple, then the condition for their turn to the land was to return to obedience to the Torah, which contains laws that they could not follow while they were in exile, yet if they repent while they are in exile, then God will forgive them (1 Kings 8:46-51). So the fact that there are many laws that we can't currently obey does not mean that we should not be faithful to obey the laws that we can get to obey. On the other hand, if someone were the king and they chose not to write a copy of the Torah, then that is what would put them in violation of their contract.


Jesus and everyone that he spoke to in Matthew 5 was under the Mosaic Covenant and he did not offer them a choice of whether they are going to follow the Torah.

This whole diatribe seems to be predicated on your opening line:

You acknowledging that the Pharisees under the Mosaic Covenant had a belief in the afterlife is counter to your claim that the afterlife is not part of the Mosaic Covenant.

Which I did not say. So.. that makes this whole speech moot.

Many of God's laws have conditions under which they should be obeyed and someone is not in violation of the law if that condition is not met.

Can you provide an example?

Laws in regard to Temple practice require there to be a Temple in which to practice them.

Actually no. The law provides an alternative structure in which the those laws can be observed. That being the tabernacle. Remember between Moses and Solomon there was no temple yet they and everyone between them still maintained the 'temple' laws.

The tabernacle was nothing but a tent, yet it was suitable for the purpose of obeying the law. The only time Israel was without a tent or tabernacle was when they where in captivity or under rule of someone who would not allow it.

The Torah was not given as a checklist but as a way to connect with God in every aspect of our lives.

Yet it was/is still used as a check list. example: can one 'connect with God if they decide to not follow 1/3 of the laws given by moses?

The way to God is not by refusing to walk in His way.

Which is exactly what people are doing when they do not follow all of God's laws. Including the laws that pertain to offerings, sacrifices and the like.

Nowhere, does the Bible state that the New Covenant involves following a new set of rules and a new reward of eternal life.

 

[Drich]

Only the NT offers eternal life. Meaning nothing in the law of Moses promises eternal life, if one followed the law. All God promised moses in the OC was His protection, Health, wealth, Long life and a piece of the promise land.

Eternal life/The afterlife was a highly debated/controversial topic even in the time of Jesus. So in reality Everytime the NT promises eternal life, is an example of a New Reward as the old reward only consisted of: His protection, Health, wealth, Long life and a piece of the promise land.

In Deuteronomy 30, it forms the basis for the New Covenant by prophesying about a time when the Israelites would return from exile, God would circumcise their hearts, and they would return to obedience to the Torah, which is what Jeremiah 31:33 and Ezekiel 36:26-27 are in regard to. It was a sin to commit adultery before God made the Mosaic Covenant (Genesis 39:9), it was a sin during it, it is a sin after it has become obsolete, and it will always be a sin no matter how many covenants God makes. What is sin is dependent upon what is contrary to God's character traits, not on which covenant we happen to be under.

But, none of this foreshadowing is apart of the covenant that the Jews took into the promise land. which makes the point you are making here irrelevant.

Again Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Torah (Luke 10:25-28).

Actually no. Jesus says these two greatest commands full filled the law of the prophets. Meaning if you followed the 'greatest commands' the rest of the law would take care of itself.

The difference being that before Jesus The Jews did not teach or understand that the old contract as having promised eternal life. Remember at this time there was a great divide among the pharisees and the sadducees concerning the idea of an after life in any way shape or form. much less the idea of following the Greatest commands for eternal life. It's not till Jesus in luke 10 says follow the greatest commands would yield eternal life, that the idea of following these commands would in fact yield eternal life.

God's Word leads us to God's Word made flesh because he is the embodiment of it and it was given in order to teach us how to know him through following his example of embodying it.

agree.

but the reason why it leads us to him is not so that we can then reject all that he is and go back to being doers of what the Torah reveals to be wickedness.

The reason why Jesus leads us to God's word is not what is being rejected. What is being rejected is your interpretation of that reason. So unless you can show me direct CONTEXTUAL Scripture that lays out God's reasoning as you have taken liberty to describe it, then know we are talking about your own personal understanding of God's reasoning as to why Jesus Leads to God.

Which may not be 100% wrong. I'm saying when you confuse your interpretation with God's (Thinking what your reason are all 100% God's Reasonings) it allows you to close your mind to anything that does not jive with the words you put in God's mouth. That is what I believe is happening here When I make the distinction between your reasons and book chapter and verse.

Picking and choosing refers to someone illegitimately choosing which laws to follow based on what they want to do, not to someone legitimately not following laws because they can't follow them.

The only reason Israel could not follow the law was in the past when they where enslaved/taken in captivity. How long has israel been free, and back in their promise land?