False teaching by separating Scripture from Scripture

[Journey_man]

This has been an enjoyable conversation, thank you for that
You’re right that Romans 7 describes a real lifelong conflict — Paul never says the flesh disappears — but your conclusion that “we never have real victory in this life” contradicts the very passages you’re using.
Romans 7 shows indwelling sin remains;
Romans 8 shows indwelling sin does not reign.
Paul says the regenerate “are not in the flesh” (Rom 8:9),
“the law of the Spirit of life has set you free” (8:2), and
“sin shall not have dominion over you” (Rom 6:14).
That is not perfectionism; it is Spirit‑produced victory in the war, not the removal of the war.
Mortification (Rom 8:13) proves sin remains, but the command “put to death” proves the Spirit actually enables obedience.
Groaning (Rom 8:23) proves we await glorification, but groaning is not defeat — it is longing from people who already “walk in the Spirit” (Gal 5:16) and actually “renounce ungodliness” because grace trains them (Titus 2:12).
The golden chain (Rom 8:29–30) shows final victory is future, but it never says present victory is nonexistent; it says present sanctification is real, progressive, and Spirit‑empowered.
So the biblical tension is simple: the war is lifelong (Rom 7), but the Spirit gives real victories now (Rom 6; Rom 8; Gal 5; Titus 2).
The mistake is treating Romans 7 as the final word instead of the setup for Romans 8’s Spirit logic.

None of the above verses teach that believers have the victory over sin in this life, nor do they teach that believes can resist temptation for any length of time.

Whilst the regenerate are not in the flesh, we still sin every single day and we will continue to sin every single day for the rest of our lives. We don't sin by choice, we sin because we still retain some of our sin nature.

Believers don't always walk in the Spirit, we resist the Spirit everyday when we wilfully sin. If we say we have no sin, then the truth is not in us. The truth is the Lord Himself, His Spirit is not in us if we deny the fact that we sin everyday.

You can put sin to death as often as you like, but it will keep rearing it's ugly head everyday and it's death is never permanent in this life. Present individual victories are only temporary, so it's not a question of victory being non-existent.

 

[Journey_man]

@Journey_man, which parts of Romans 3:10 and 3:23 do you think aren't Scripture?

10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

If that isn't teaching "universal sinfulness before regeneration" then what is it teaching?

The other member was claiming that regenerated believers attain sinless perfection in this life and I responded by stating that the Bible doesn't teach any such thing.

I never disagreed with "universal sinfulness before regeneration" but I disagree with sinless perfection after regeneration. I don't know of any scriptures that teach that a regenerated believr has the final victory over sin in this life.

 

[Revelation1v8]

The other member was claiming that regenerated believers attain sinless perfection in this life and I responded by stating that the Bible doesn't teach any such thing.

I never disagreed with "universal sinfulness before regeneration" but I disagree with sinless perfection after regeneration. I don't know of any scriptures that teach that a regenerated believr has the final victory over sin in this life.

Precisely why we need to be covered by the blood of Jesus and remain faithful. Through Jesus we are all made perfect in God's sight even when we physically are not.

Colossians 1:22 - In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

 

[Journey_man]

Your claim breaks the text because John 15:6 is not addressed to “fake believers who only look like branches,” but to the same people Jesus just called “clean” in 15:3 — meaning genuinely regenerated disciples — and the warning functions exactly like every other perseverance warning in Scripture: not to suggest the elect will finally fall, but to describe the real danger God uses to keep them from falling.
Your slogan “a regenerated believer cannot refuse to abide” is true at the level of God’s decree (John 6:39; Jude 24), but false at the level of human responsibility, because Jesus commands abiding precisely because the elect must abide and God preserves them through that abiding.
Paul’s statement in Romans 6:14 is indeed a promise — sin’s dominion is broken — but Paul immediately follows it with commands (6:12–13) because the broken dominion does not eliminate the battle; it guarantees the outcome.
The NT never says, “You cannot fail to abide,” it says, “If you do not abide, you are burned” (John 15:6), and then shows that the elect do abide because the Spirit keeps them (1 John 2:27). The world‑system behind your objection is fatalistic‑determinism — turning God’s preserving grace into a denial of the very means He uses to preserve.

You're wrong about John 15:6 because a branch "in" Christ represents a professing attachment—someone connected externally through the visible church, baptism, or a superficial profession—rather than a vital, regenerating union.
True believers (the elect) are preserved by God and will ultimately abide and bear fruit. Failing to abide and being thrown into the fire describes the fate of the fruitless professor whose lack of fruit proves they were never truly regenerate.

You need to make the distinction between those who are merely outwardly associated with Christ (visible members of the covenant community, like Judas Iscariot) and those who possess true, inward, saving faith (the elect).
John 6:39 is not a conditional command requiring the elect to maintain our own salvation, but rather an absolute divine promise and guarantee that Christ will successfully preserve all whom the Father has given Him.

Salvation is entirely monergistic (a work of God alone). It has nothing to do with man, because God chooses, regenerates, and justifies a believer, the responsibility to sustain that salvation rests on Him, not on human willpower. Faith and abiding are gifts from God, not human efforts. Christ's grip on the believer is what matters, not the believer's grip on Christ.

You obviously have a shallow view of Gods sovereignty and the Bible doctrines of predestination and election to salvation, by reducing them down to "fatalistic-determinism".
God is absolutely powerful and sovereign over all things. Nothing happens apart from His will.
God decrees not only the final result, but also the human choices and actions (the means) that lead to that result.

Fatalism is a blind, cold, and impersonal force where your actions do not matter at all. It says an event happens no matter what you do or try. By contrast, the Bible teaches that God ordains the means right along with the ends. If God has planned a harvest, He also planned the rain, the planting, and the work.

God's sovereign control works side-by-side with human responsibility. People choose what they want to do based on their own desires, but God sovereignly guides those desires.

 

[Revelation1v8]

You're wrong about John 15:6 because a branch "in" Christ represents a professing attachment—someone connected externally through the visible church, baptism, or a superficial profession—rather than a vital, regenerating union.
True believers (the elect) are preserved by God and will ultimately abide and bear fruit. Failing to abide and being thrown into the fire describes the fate of the fruitless professor whose lack of fruit proves they were never truly regenerate.

You need to make the distinction between those who are merely outwardly associated with Christ (visible members of the covenant community, like Judas Iscariot) and those who possess true, inward, saving faith (the elect).
John 6:39 is not a conditional command requiring the elect to maintain our own salvation, but rather an absolute divine promise and guarantee that Christ will successfully preserve all whom the Father has given Him.

Salvation is entirely monergistic (a work of God alone). It has nothing to do with man, because God chooses, regenerates, and justifies a believer, the responsibility to sustain that salvation rests on Him, not on human willpower. Faith and abiding are gifts from God, not human efforts. Christ's grip on the believer is what matters, not the believer's grip on Christ.

You obviously have a shallow view of Gods sovereignty and the Bible doctrines of predestination and election to salvation, by reducing them down to "fatalistic-determinism".
God is absolutely powerful and sovereign over all things. Nothing happens apart from His will.
God decrees not only the final result, but also the human choices and actions (the means) that lead to that result.

Fatalism is a blind, cold, and impersonal force where your actions do not matter at all. It says an event happens no matter what you do or try. By contrast, the Bible teaches that God ordains the means right along with the ends. If God has planned a harvest, He also planned the rain, the planting, and the work.

God's sovereign control works side-by-side with human responsibility. People choose what they want to do based on their own desires, but God sovereignly guides those desires.

LOL! It sounds to me like you and OMC are both arguing the same thing in different ways. OMC admitted that the Holy Spirit is what keeps us abiding in God/Jesus.

As for your paragraph on "predestination" and NOTHING happens apart from His will, that can't be true. There are many of us who have backslidden and that can't be God's will, but I definitely saw how He allowed me to stumble until I went back to abiding in Him. The Bible says He'll leave the 99 to go looking for the 1 sheep that strayed from the flock. Everything inbetween is us making our own choices and, hopefully, learning from them until we get it right and He brings us back into the fold.