I've said consistently in this thread that the Bible shows a pattern of history repeating itself and it's called "prophetic telescoping". If I'm not focusing on the past fulfillment, it's because most arguments in this thread are about whether or not there is another future fulfillment to follow it and yet to come. That's why I used Pilgrimshope's sample scripture of Matthew 24 to show how the prophecy being shown there was not only describing a past event, but future events too.
Replacement theology? Yes or No.
- Thread starter Gideon300
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I've said consistently in this thread that the Bible shows a pattern of history repeating itself and it's called "prophetic telescoping". If I'm not focusing on the past fulfillment, it's because most arguments in this thread are about whether or not there is another future fulfillment to follow it and yet to come. That's why I used Pilgrimshope's sample scripture of Matthew 24 to show how the prophecy being shown there was not only describing a past event, but future events too.
I don't think anyone's in trouble as much as I think we are all led to believe what we do in order for God's plan to be fulfilled the way it was written. If anything, it proves that humans can error and only God/Jesus holds all truth, which is why we all need a Savior in the first place. There is no guarantee that every Christian church or pastor knows or understands everything. I think a lot of things are left ambiguous in scriptures so we'll remain in the Word for hours on end, even if it's to debate it.
Although, I worry about anyone who has a deep hatred for Jews. We don't have to like what's going on in current Israel today, but we shouldn't write the people off as eternally lost and hopeless either, because the Bible says that when Jesus returns, He'll "pour out His spirit of grace and supplication" on them, so they'll know He is God. (But that doesn't mean they all will be saved either. They will still have to accept or reject that grace.)
Mathew 24 addresses a question about two different times, and that might be a Biblical warrant to consider two fulfillments.
Zechariah 12 does not do that, so where do you get your Biblical warrant to look for a second fulfillment?
A lecture about "telescoping" is not a Biblical warrant.
Here is a complete list of prophecies that have been fulfilled in Zechariah 12 against a list of unfulfilled prophecies in Zechariah 12:
Fulfilled (or Partially Fulfilled) Events in Zechariah 12
- The Piercing of the Messiah — Zechariah 12:10 ("they shall look upon me whom they have pierced") is fulfilled at the crucifixion, where a soldier pierces Jesus's side (John 19:34–37).
- Partial National Conviction — Zechariah 12:10 ("they shall mourn for him as one mourns for his only son") is partially fulfilled in Acts 2:37, where 3,000 Jews are "pierced in their heart" and repent after Peter's sermon.
Unfulfilled (Future) Events in Zechariah 12
- All Nations Gathered Against Jerusalem — v.2–3: "I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling… all the nations of the earth shall be gathered together against it."
- Jerusalem as a Heavy Stone — v.3: "I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will surely hurt themselves."
- God Strikes Enemy Armies with Panic and Blindness — v.4: "I will strike every horse with panic, and every rider with madness… I will strike with blindness all the horses of the nations."
- Clans of Judah Become a Consuming Fire — v.6: "I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples."
- The Weakest Become Like David; House of David Like God — v.8: "the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them."
- God Destroys All Nations That Attack Jerusalem — v.9: "I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."
- Pouring Out of the Spirit of Grace and Supplication — v.10 (first half): "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication."
@Beekeeper, I'm going to do this for Zechariah 13 too and then Zechariah 14:
Fulfilled Prophecies in Zechariah 13
- The Struck Shepherd and Scattered Disciples: Zechariah 13:7, which predicts the striking of the Shepherd and the scattering of the sheep, is cited by Jesus in Matthew 26:31 as fulfilled by his arrest and the disciples fleeing in Gethsemane.
- Removal of Idolatry: The erasure of idol names from the land (13:2) was fulfilled by the Jewish people’s historical aversion to idolatry post-exile and their conversion to Christianity, turning away from idolizing the ceremonial law.
- Silencing of False Prophets: The prophecy that false prophets and unclean spirits would pass out of the land (13:2) was fulfilled by the end of the Old Testament prophetic era and the establishment of the New Testament church, where the spirit of prophecy was replaced by the Holy Spirit.
- Eradication of All False Religion: The complete removal of idols and false prophets so they are "no more remembered" (13:2) is viewed by many scholars as having an ultimate, eschatological fulfillment at the end of the age or during the Tribulation, when all false religious systems are destroyed.
- Refining of the Remnant: The prophecy that two-thirds of the population will be cut off and perish, while one-third is brought through fire to be refined like silver and gold (13:8-9), is interpreted as a future event concerning national Israel’s repentance and purification during the end times.
- Restoration of Covenant Relationship: The final declaration that the refined remnant will call on God’s name and He will answer, resulting in the mutual affirmation "They are My people" and "The Lord is our God" (13:9), is linked to the future salvation of all Israel (Romans 11:26-27) and the full realization of the Messianic Kingdom.
@Beekeeper, here is the final one from Zechariah 14:
Fulfilled Prophecies in Zechariah 14
- The Destruction of Jerusalem and Its Plundering (v. 1–2): The prediction that "all the nations" would gather against Jerusalem, the city would be taken, houses plundered, and women ravished is widely seen as fulfilled in the Roman siege of A.D. 70 (some preterists also point to the Maccabean Wars). Jesus himself applied OT judgment language to this event (Luke 21:22).
- Half the City Exiled (v. 2): The prophecy that "half of the city will go into exile" matches the massive dispersion of Jews following the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.
- No More Canaanite (Merchant) in the House of the LORD (v. 21): Interpreted by some as fulfilled by Christ's cleansing of the temple (driving out buyers and sellers) and by the permanent destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70, which ended all commercial activity in the "house of the LORD."
- Living Waters (v. 8): In a spiritual sense, this is seen as fulfilled in the gospel offer of living water (John 4:14; 7:37–39), with the Holy Spirit poured out on all nations.
- The Lord's Feet on the Mount of Olives; the Mountain Splitting (v. 4): This is the most clearly unfulfilled verse in the chapter. No literal splitting of the Mount of Olives into a valley has ever occurred. Premillennialists and dispensationalists identify this with Christ's second coming at the end of the age.
- Darkness Without Light Until Evening (v. 6–7): The cosmic darkness—sun, moon, and stars dimming—is tied to the Day of the Lord and is parallel to Revelation 6:12; 8:12 and Matthew 24:29.
- The Plague on the Nations' Armies (v. 12–15): The supernatural plague in which "their flesh shall rot, their eyes shrink, their ears rot" and their wealth is plundered by the very people they attacked is viewed as a future judgment at Armageddon.
- The LORD as King Over All the Earth (v. 9): "In that day the LORD will be king over all the earth. The LORD will be one and his name one." This universal, visible, earthly kingship is seen as awaiting the millennial kingdom.
- All Nations Going Up to Worship at the Feast (v. 16–17): The annual pilgrimage of all nations to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles, with punishment for those who refuse, is a future eschatological event.
- Geographic Transformation (v. 10–11): The land being "turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon" and Jerusalem being "safely inhabited" (never again besieged) point to a future physical restoration.
- Universal Holiness (v. 20): "Every bell on the horses will be inscribed with the words 'Holy to the LORD'"—a picture of total, visible sanctification of all things in the kingdom.
I have a question on revelation....how do you see this?
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
My question is....21:3 says God himself specific. Jesus is not mentioned anymore could this be that the work of Jesus is completed also the work of the Holy spirit and we tabernacle with the father only. That God the Father is the one God sorta speak again?
Hope you understand my question. Its been on my mind for quite some time.
Jesus presents his church bride to the father. All remain are redeemed. No futher need of a redeemer?
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
My question is....21:3 says God himself specific. Jesus is not mentioned anymore could this be that the work of Jesus is completed also the work of the Holy spirit and we tabernacle with the father only. That God the Father is the one God sorta speak again?
Hope you understand my question. Its been on my mind for quite some time.
Jesus presents his church bride to the father. All remain are redeemed. No futher need of a redeemer?
That's how I see it. God/Jesus/Holy Spirit will be back to being One again instead of playing different roles on the earth. Once the earth is destroyed by fire, there will be no more need for separation. Here are a couple of verses I see as being related to this subject.
1 Corinthians 15:28 - And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Revelation 3:12 - Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
But why are you so quick to come to the conclusion that they have not been fulfilled?
How do you know that they were not?
Zechariah 12:9 " I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem" happened before the wall was even up, and if it had not happened the remnant would have been easily destroyed by the surrounding nations.
If God says He will make the clans of Judah mighty in battle, why would you assume that He didn't do that?
I am not as confident in my understanding of Zechariah 13 and 14 as you present yourself to be, but if this is your approach I have no reason to trust you as my prophesy teacher.
The messenger needs to be talking about the Lord, and quit tootin his own horn.
Beekeeper, like all the other prophecies, when history repeats itself it's on a much larger scale. It's why the last final Great Tribulation is the one that Matthew 24 describes as the worst that will EVER be. In case you haven't noticed, nations aren't done coming up against Jerusalem yet. It's building again. Israel is currently surrounded by Islamic nations in which some have sworn to wipe current Israel off of the face of the map. Do you not pay attention to the signs of His coming? The prophecy in the Bible crescendos, live birthing pains. If you can't see that, than no one will be able to help you anyway.
In the days of Zechariah God defended the faithful remnant of old covenant Israel.
In our day we are seeing an entirely different thing.
Modern Israel is rebellious against God and ambitious to expand.
It is not innocent, and it is not a victim.
Jesus will come to judge the people of the earth, not to defend earthly Israel.
Jesus comes to do both. You continue to ignore what God said in:
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zechariah 13:8-9
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
Zechariah 14:6-10
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
May your "hall monitor" exertions bear fruit and be blessed.
And I shall continue in my exertions to teach and expose fraud and biblically illiterate dogma.
Scripture uses heaven and earth as covenant language connected with Israel, the Law, judgment, and the establishment of a new covenant order.
The sun, moon, stars, land, and seas existed long before Moses.
Scripture developed a covenantal "heaven and earth" order around the nation formed under the Mosaic covenant.
That covenant world could therefore be shaken, judged, dissolved, and replaced, yet not have the physical planet destroyed and this happened in the first century.
When we truly follow the language from Moses through the prophets, Jesus, Peter, and Revelation, the Bible interprets itself.
The sun, moon, stars, land, and seas existed long before Moses.
Scripture developed a covenantal "heaven and earth" order around the nation formed under the Mosaic covenant.
That covenant world could therefore be shaken, judged, dissolved, and replaced, yet not have the physical planet destroyed and this happened in the first century.
When we truly follow the language from Moses through the prophets, Jesus, Peter, and Revelation, the Bible interprets itself.
“Which is in error and is direct opposition to what the Lord Jesus said.”
Lol
right direct opposition to what the lord Jesus said “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”
Matthew 5:17 KJV
In bizarro world that’s opposite
“And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
Luke 17:20-21 KJV