looking for help reconciling the Sabbath with common observation?

[TMS]

You're trying to rest under the law of Moses.
I'm resting under the Law of Christ. Big difference between the two.

That's what I say... big difference between the laws...

The law of ceremonies that Moses gave that were shadow laws pointing forward to Christ's coming are nailed to the cross.

I don't live under these laws.

But Jesus said ...
Mat 19:17-18
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

The only law written in those days was the laws given by Moses and the 10 commandments given by God, (Jesus).

Jesus quotes some of the 10 commandments. So " if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments".

We are not under the death penalty because of transgressing the law because Jesus kept them perfectly and forgives us.

Do we make the law void... no

Those that have real faith will love to obey the moral law of God.

God's holy law is a delight...

The Spirit of Jesus in us changes the heart.

 

[ScooterJackson]

So no, same sex relationships are not God's will.

So those involved in same sex perversion are going to hell?
Talking about the ones who never repent and continue in perversion

In the spiritual realm, those distinctions do not exist. God created us male and female. In the spiritual realm, those distinctions do not exist.

See now there's your error.
The New Testament clearly teaches that pastors, teachers, church leaders are male.

Maybe someday you'll come around to the Lord's way of seeing things and accept the whole counsel of God.

In heaven, there are no such distinctions.

The gifts and CALLINGS of God are without repentance

Saved women will get a resurrected FEMALE body
Saved men will get a resurrected MALE body

Are you claiming in Heaven they are genderless?

 

[TMS]

The gospel verses you mention above, were speaking about the time before the resurrection. And Sunday had not yet replaced Saturday as the Christian Sabbath.

I can't think of any scriptures that would support Sabbath keeping after the resurrection. The book of Acts shows the disciples meeting on the first day of the week. The Lord Jesus accepted their Sunday worship service, because He is the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.

A scripture that does support sabbath keeping after the resurrection...

Act 13:42-44
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. .....
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

No verses that say they came together EVERY Sunday..

And... Jesus said.

Mat 24:19-21
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Pray that you flight be not on the sabbath day.

"In those days" = Jesus is referring to both the destruction of Jerusalem and the final events, the end of the world.

 

[Davidstarr]

The Church that meets on the first day of the week has spread the gospel over most of the world. There are vast numbers of saved people who would be eternally lost if they had not heard the gospel. The SDA cult did not show up until the 19th century. The great men of faith, some of whom died for their testimony to Christ, changed whole societies. Wesley, Bunyan, Wycliffe, Whitfield, Edwards, Spurgeon just to name a few were among the greats. They all worshiped on Sunday.

SDA is a dead religion that has nothing whatever to offer the real Church. Meeting on the sabbath has no spiritual value at all. As long as Christians meet, it is clear from God's word that the day is unimportant. You reject God's word and make an idol out of the sabbath. Any honest reading of the Bible refutes your false claims.

That's your reply to the biblical evidence I gave?
Of course there were greats (as you call them) but were they infallible?

The rest of your statement shows bigotry, racism and hypocrisy.
And why? Just because you don't like the idea of a Saturday sabbath?
Or because there is no NT evidence of a weekly Sunday sabbath?

 

[Davidstarr]

A scripture that does support sabbath keeping after the resurrection...

Act 13:42-44
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. .....
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

No verses that say they came together EVERY Sunday..

And... Jesus said.

Mat 24:19-21
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Pray that you flight be not on the sabbath day.

"In those days" = Jesus is referring to both the destruction of Jerusalem and the final events, the end of the world.

Heb 4:1-11 as well.
Read it verse by verse, word for word. Verses 4-11 are in the context of those verses.

 

[Gideon300]

That's your reply to the biblical evidence I gave?
Of course there were greats (as you call them) but were they infallible?

The rest of your statement shows bigotry, racism and hypocrisy.
And why? Just because you don't like the idea of a Saturday sabbath?
Or because there is no NT evidence of a weekly Sunday sabbath?

I don't like a religion that endorses a false prophet (Ellen G White). According to SDA teaching, the mark of the Beast is Sunday worship. The NT does not refer to a Sunday sabbath. There is no NT sabbath at all. Colossians 2:16.

Racist? Do you know what the word means? I despise SDA religion no matter what nationality its adherents are. I feel sorry for Adventists to a degree. I'd hate to be bound up by their legalism.

Bigoted? If by that you mean I'll call out false doctrine, I'm guilty. Hypocrisy? Please tell me my hypocritical statements.

No one is infallible. But dig deep and SDA teaching condemns those who do not observe the Saturday Sabbath. It would seem that God is not at all concerned, looking at the fruit of the ministry of non Sabbath keepers.

Paul had a great deal to say about those who seek to impose the Law on believers. None of what he said was positive.

 

[Dino246]

Walking after the Spirit = following the law.
Walking after the flesh = not following the law.

Nice try. If your assertions were valid, then Paul’s letter to the Galatians is redundant and the Holy Spirit was wrong in Acts 15.

 

[Dino246]

The New Testament clearly teaches that pastors, teachers, church leaders are male.

No, it doesn’t. That’s a common interpretation that doesn’t stand up to careful examination.

 

[ScooterJackson]

No, it doesn’t. That’s a common interpretation that doesn’t stand up to careful examination.

Of course you do err having been influenced by teachers who are far more worried about offending woman than they are the Lord with their false doctrine. It's the wisdom of man gone amuck as always.

Women were created by the Lord to serve in a helper role not in a role of authority.
Only men can serve in a role of authority according to scripture.

Quote from - 1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife

Quote from - Titus 1:6-9
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God

Quote from - 1 Timothy 2:12,13
I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man

Related TRUTH from Scripture:

1 Corinthians 11:8,9
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Genesis 2:18
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Concerning 1 Timothy 2:8-15
The Lord Jesus teaching thru Paul gave two reasons, both of them are theological not cultural.

1. The created order: Adam was first created as an independent person, then Eve was created from his rib to be his helper. She was therefore not created to be independent of the man in authority.

2. Eve, and consequently all women, were placed under a penalty of the curse. This included pain in childbearing and that her husband would rule over her.

 

[Dino246]

Of course you do err having been influenced by teachers who are far more worried about offending woman than they are the Lord with their false doctrine. It's the wisdom of man gone amuck as always.

Women were created by the Lord to serve in a helper role not in a role of authority.
Only men can serve in a role of authority according to scripture.

Quote from - 1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife

Quote from - Titus 1:6-9
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God

Quote from - 1 Timothy 2:12,13
I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man

Related TRUTH from Scripture:

1 Corinthians 11:8,9
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Genesis 2:18
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Concerning 1 Timothy 2:8-15
The Lord Jesus teaching thru Paul gave two reasons, both of them are theological not cultural.

1. The created order: Adam was first created as an independent person, then Eve was created from his rib to be his helper. She was therefore not created to be independent of the man in authority.

2. Eve, and consequently all women, were placed under a penalty of the curse. This included pain in childbearing and that her husband would rule over her.

You have no idea who my teachers are, or how they have influenced my views… and apparently you have not done your homework.

 

[Gideon300]

Why ....
The Spirit and the moral law do not controdict each other. The Holy Spirit and the character of God are one.

To say you follow the Spirit of God and wilfully transgress the law is a contradiction..

Rom 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Walking after the Spirit = following the law.
Walking after the flesh = not following the law.

You are transgressing the law when you ignore the command .... Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.

The law does not save us. Faith saves but that faith leads us to follow the Spirit not reject it.

Your whole post did not answer my question.

Are we saved from sin by removing the law or by the blood of Jesus paying for the debt of transgressing the law?

And remember when the type meet antitype those shadow laws were remove and did become void.

Your reasoning is specious. There is a new Covenant, New Life and New Law. It is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. Lord Jesus made it clear that the Law was inadequate. Outward observance is not enough. Even hating someone is in effect murdering them. The Law has a purpose, but not to be slavishly obeyed. If we are led by the Spirit, we will be fulfilling all of God's righteous requirements, not just the ten commandments.

My Bible tells me that Law brings death. It also tells me that I died to the law. You really believe that God reimposes the law that brings death on people that He has made alive?

God did not remove the law. He removed me. And everyone should be glad of that. Then He raised me up to be a new creation in Christ. The law had a purpose, to lead me to Christ. It's done its job.

When you live under the law, you MUST keep every single part of it without fail. Either you are living by faith or you live by the law. There is no in between. Your choice, the law of sin and death or the law of the Spirit of Life. I've chosen life.

 

[Davidstarr]

I don't like a religion that endorses a false prophet (Ellen G White). According to SDA teaching, the mark of the Beast is Sunday worship. The NT does not refer to a Sunday sabbath. There is no NT sabbath at all. Colossians 2:16.

Racist? Do you know what the word means? I despise SDA religion no matter what nationality its adherents are. I feel sorry for Adventists to a degree. I'd hate to be bound up by their legalism.

Bigoted? If by that you mean I'll call out false doctrine, I'm guilty. Hypocrisy? Please tell me my hypocritical statements.

No one is infallible. But dig deep and SDA teaching condemns those who do not observe the Saturday Sabbath. It would seem that God is not at all concerned, looking at the fruit of the ministry of non Sabbath keepers.

Paul had a great deal to say about those who seek to impose the Law on believers. None of what he said was positive.

No one says you have to adhere to any religion. Or to keep the Saturday sabbath if you don't want to. That will be between you and God.

As for me I will adhere (to the best of my ability at least) to what I believe the scriptures teach.

I have posted enough verses above to show what I believe and why.
If you wish to ignore them, there is nothing more to say on the subject.

Yes, there IS a NT Saturday sabbath mentioned multiple times. Read my above posts.

I bet you don't even know WHY SDAs believe the mark of the beast in Sunday worship.
You certainly will not even consider the biblical evidence.

 

[Davidstarr]

Your reasoning is specious. There is a new Covenant, New Life and New Law. It is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. Lord Jesus made it clear that the Law was inadequate. Outward observance is not enough. Even hating someone is in effect murdering them. The Law has a purpose, but not to be slavishly obeyed. If we are led by the Spirit, we will be fulfilling all of God's righteous requirements, not just the ten commandments.

My Bible tells me that Law brings death. It also tells me that I died to the law. You really believe that God reimposes the law that brings death on people that He has made alive?

God did not remove the law. He removed me. And everyone should be glad of that. Then He raised me up to be a new creation in Christ. The law had a purpose, to lead me to Christ. It's done its job.

When you live under the law, you MUST keep every single part of it without fail. Either you are living by faith or you live by the law. There is no in between. Your choice, the law of sin and death or the law of the Spirit of Life. I've chosen life.

That would be the Mosaic/Levitical laws concerning temple, services, feast days and holidays, sacrificing animals for the redemption of sin.

Not the same as God's 10 commandment law. The NT fully endorses all 10 commandments.
I have posted those scriptures above. But, of course, you have ignored them.

 

[Yissachar]

I delight in the Law of Christ as taught in God's written Word, not the law of moses which Jesus took away and replaced with the Law of Christ



That is the Law of Christ for the New Covenant believer, not the law of Moses.



Minus the law of Moses. If you are following the law of Moses you are fallen from grace like the Galatians.



So when you sin, what kind of animal do you whack to cover your sins?



There is no salvation without the New Covenant with Jesus Christ alone as High Priest

Those following the Torah seem to not be accepting the New Covenant. Big mistake

I'll trust God to complete the work He began

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

That they may walk in My statutes, and keep Mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith YHWH; I will put My Torahs into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them God , and they shall be to Me a people:

Romans 7:22
For I delight in The Torah of God after the inward man:

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension, or are you deliberately choosing not to believe in The New Covenant?

What YHWH said He would do

The Law of Christ and the Torah of YHWH are one in the same.

 

[Gideon300]

That would be the Mosaic/Levitical laws concerning temple, services, feast days and holidays, sacrificing animals for the redemption of sin.

Not the same as God's 10 commandment law. The NT fully endorses all 10 commandments.
I have posted those scriptures above. But, of course, you have ignored them.

I know the purpose of the Law and I know what it means to be born again. I know that I died to the Law so I am no longer subject to it. It's all in your Bible too, but you choose to reject it. You differentiate between the Levitical laws and the Decalogue. There is no such distinction. Lord Jesus said that love God, love your neighbour are the greatest commandments. And you should also note that Lord Jesus prefaced His statement with "Hear O Israel". (Mark 12:29) I'm not an Israelite.​

 

[Gideon300]

I'll trust God to complete the work He began

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

That they may walk in My statutes, and keep Mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith YHWH; I will put My Torahs into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them God , and they shall be to Me a people:

Romans 7:22
For I delight in The Torah of God after the inward man:

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension, or are you deliberately choosing not to believe in The New Covenant?

What YHWH said He would do

The Law of Christ and the Torah of YHWH are one in the same.

I'm not an Israeli. There is a case to make that the Torah applies to Jews, not that I agree with it. It's also impossible to keep unless you are living in Israel. So I reject your assertion that the Torah is the Law of Christ.

The rite of circumcision destroys your argument. No believer is required to be circumcised. Yet the Torah demands it. God took it so seriously that He was about to kill Moses for not circumcising his son.

 

[Yissachar]

I know the purpose of the Law and I know what it means to be born again. I know that I died to the Law so I am no longer subject to it. It's all in your Bible too, but you choose to reject it. You differentiate between the Levitical laws and the Decalogue. There is no such distinction. Lord Jesus said that love God, love your neighbour are the greatest commandments. And you should also note that Lord Jesus prefaced His statement with "Hear O Israel". (Mark 12:29) I'm not an Israelite.​

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be.

Dead to what laws? murder, worshipping idols, stealing, coveting, adultery or only the laws you don't like?

The twisters twist Paul as they do all of the scriptures

<>

Dead to the law that Prohibited Israel from being Married to YESHUA

The Law of Divorce and Re-Marriage, For those who Know what Paul is Addressing. That Law

Romans 7:1

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that Law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Deuteronomy 24:1
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

2And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

3And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;

4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

YHWH Divorced Israel for playing the harlot.

It is an abomination to re-marry a wife that was divorced.

Unless the Husband dies, Then this Law is no longer is in effect. And the wife (Israel) is free to re-marry Him that was raised from the dead

Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: Jeremiah 3:14

YESHUA died, layed down His Life For Israel, that He could be married to her again without breaking His own Law regarding marriage and divorce.

 

[Gideon300]

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be.

Dead to what laws? murder, worshipping idols, stealing, coveting, adultery or only the laws you don't like?

The twisters twist Paul as they do all of the scriptures

<>

Dead to the law that Prohibited Israel from being Married to YESHUA

The Law of Divorce and Re-Marriage, For those who Know what Paul is Addressing. That Law

Romans 7:1

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that Law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Deuteronomy 24:1
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

2And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

3And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;

4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

YHWH Divorced Israel for playing the harlot.

It is an abomination to re-marry a wife that was divorced.

Unless the Husband dies, Then this Law is no longer is in effect. And the wife (Israel) is free to re-marry Him that was raised from the dead

Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: Jeremiah 3:14

YESHUA died, layed down His Life For Israel, that He could be married to her again without breaking His own Law regarding marriage and divorce.

Whatever.

 

[Davidstarr]

Whatever.

That's your response to a scriptural reference?

Don't you know the 2 laws:
Love God and love your neighbor
Sum up/support the 10 commandments?

But what's the point in giving you those references too?

I refuse to help you add sin to sin by giving you more scriptures to reject.

 

[Churchgoer]

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be.

Dead to what laws? murder, worshipping idols, stealing, coveting, adultery or only the laws you don't like?

The twisters twist Paul as they do all of the scriptures

<>

Dead to the law that Prohibited Israel from being Married to YESHUA

The Law of Divorce and Re-Marriage, For those who Know what Paul is Addressing. That Law

Romans 7:1

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that Law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Deuteronomy 24:1
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

2And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

3And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;

4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

YHWH Divorced Israel for playing the harlot.

It is an abomination to re-marry a wife that was divorced.

Unless the Husband dies, Then this Law is no longer is in effect. And the wife (Israel) is free to re-marry Him that was raised from the dead

Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: Jeremiah 3:14

YESHUA died, layed down His Life For Israel, that He could be married to her again without breaking His own Law regarding marriage and divorce.

What about John 3 : 16?

What if some Israel still reject the resurrected Jesus and still play harlot role?