Salvation the same as in believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.
Service different OT and NT
Why the Old Law/Covenant Does not apply to NT Christians..
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Salvation the same as in believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.
Service different OT and NT
I'm not saying anyone could ever follow the law and be saved, but eternal salvation was always belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. Different method of service though ot and nt.
I think we are saying the same thing.
New flash!
In the old covenant Jesus had not gone to the Cross yet so nobody could believe in and follow Jesus back then.
Not in the old covenant they couldn't.
Jesus was not revealed to them yet
Wether it was or wasn't is not the point. The point I am making is no one who agreed to the original contract when it was given to Moses Including Moses himself knew anything of the after life/eternal life.
Meaning the stated purpose of following the law according to deut 28 was:
28 If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God:
3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.
4 The fruit of your womb will be blessed, and the crops of your land and the young of your livestock—the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks.
5 Your basket and your kneading trough will be blessed.
6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.
7 The Lord will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven.
8 The Lord will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The Lord your God will bless you in the land he is giving you.
9 The Lord will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the Lord your God and walk in obedience to him. 10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the Lord, and they will fear you. 11 The Lord will grant you abundant prosperity—in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your ground—in the land he swore to your ancestors to give you.
12 The Lord will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none. 13 The Lord will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the Lord your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom. 14 Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them.
Note eternal life was not apart of the original agreement.
So if you are going to try and legalistically follow the law, then know your reward is not eternal life. It basically amounts to "Health, wealth, God's protection, Long life and a piece of the promise land. At least under the old contract.
The concept of eternal life is present in the Old Testament, in passages like Daniel 12:2, which speaks of some awakening to everlasting life. Other verses, such as those in Psalms, also suggest a belief in life after death and a relationship with God beyond this life.
The New Testament reflects much more specific revelation from God of the afterlife. Yet there are some strong Old Testament indicators, though not nearly as many.
Job had the assurance that although he was going to be eaten by worms, he would receive a new body and in that body would actually see God face to face, obviously conscious. In Job 19:25-27 he says that “I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!”
Then there’s Isaiah 26:19: “But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You, who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.”
Here’s Dan 12:1-3, which is quite clear: “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book— will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.”
In his book Hard Sayings of the Bible, Walter Kaiser writes that “Psalm 49 presents a stark contrast between the end of the lives of the wicked and the end of the lives of the righteous. The wicked are like ‘the beasts that perish’ (Ps 49:12, 20) without any hope that they ‘should live on forever’ (Ps 49:9). However, the righteous have the triumphant expectation that ‘God will redeem [them] from the grave [Hebrew, Sheol]; he will surely take [them] to himself’ (Ps 49:15). The idea is the same as that of Genesis 5:24: God will snatch, take or receive us to himself when we die. If the psalmist had in mind the fact that he would be rescued from death for a few years, though he knows he still must eventually die like the beasts, then the psalm has very little, or no, point. Psalm 73:23-25 makes a similar contrast between the wicked and the righteous. Once again there is faith that reaches beyond this life, and it centers on this verb to take (Hebrew, laqah). Says the psalmist, ‘You guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will take me into glory’ (Ps 73:24).”
Kaiser also writes that “Accordingly, it can be argued on very strong linguistic and conceptual grounds that the ‘taking’ of a person from this earth implies that mortals are capable of inhabiting immortal realms. For the believer in Yahweh in Old Testament times, death did not end it all. There was life after death, and that life was to be in the presence of the living God. While Enoch did not experience ‘resurrection,’ he did experience glorification. He did, along with Elijah, transcend this mortal life and go in his body to be with God. Since Enoch had not died, he could not be resurrected.”
Many have argued that immortality is a New Testament idea despite the fact that passages such as the Psalms and Daniel 12:1-3 clearly refer to life after death and a bodily resurrection. In the 73rd Psalm a man named Asaph described how he almost lost his faith in God when he considered how evil people prospered and the godly suffered. But then he said he went into the sanctuary of God. From the perspective of worship, he suddenly saw evil men standing on the slippery ground of their mortality. With new insight he confessed, “You will guide me with Your counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but You? And there is none upon earth that I desire besides You. My flesh and my heart fail; but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever” (Ps. 73:24-26).
Other Psalms don’t explicitly deny existence after death and in some places seem to affirm continued existence after death, such as: Ps.16:10 “... will not abandon me to the grave... will... fill me with... eternal pleasures at your right hand.”; Ps. 21 “surely you have granted him eternal blessings.”; Ps. 49:15 “but God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself.”
Various other Old Testament passages also seem to suggest existence after death. David comforted himself with the knowledge that he would see his dead child once again, and Samuel appeared to Saul through the witch of Endor (1 Samuel 28).
Even the careful attention that the Hebrews paid to the remains of their dead suggest some notion of an afterlife (e.g., burial, burial rites, disinterment and re-burial, defense of dead bodies from predators, rescue of dead bodies being dishonored by enemies, and so on). This is typically used by anthropologists as evidence for such a belief, at any rate.
Finally, consider Job 14, which is a major Old Testament chapter on conscious life after death: “Man, who is born of woman, is short-lived and full of turmoil. Like a flower he comes forth and withers. He also flees like a shadow and does not remain. Thou also dost open Thine eyes on him, And bring him into judgment with Thyself. Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one! Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with Thee, And his limits Thou hast set so that he cannot pass. Turn Thy gaze from him that he may rest, Until he fulfills his day like a hired man.”
“For there is hope for a tree, When it is cut down, that it will sprout again, And its shoots will not fail. Though its roots grow old in the ground, And its stump dies in the dry soil, At the scent of water it will flourish And put forth sprigs like a plant. But man dies and lies prostrate. Man expires, and where is he? As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens be no more, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep. Oh that Thou wouldst hide me in Sheol, That Thou wouldst conceal me until Thy wrath returns to Thee, That Thou wouldst set a limit for me and remember me! If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait, Until my change comes. Thou wilt call, and I will answer Thee” (Job 14:1-15).
Job had the assurance that although he was going to be eaten by worms, he would receive a new body and in that body would actually see God face to face, obviously conscious. In Job 19:25-27 he says that “I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!”
Then there’s Isaiah 26:19: “But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You, who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.”
Here’s Dan 12:1-3, which is quite clear: “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book— will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.”
In his book Hard Sayings of the Bible, Walter Kaiser writes that “Psalm 49 presents a stark contrast between the end of the lives of the wicked and the end of the lives of the righteous. The wicked are like ‘the beasts that perish’ (Ps 49:12, 20) without any hope that they ‘should live on forever’ (Ps 49:9). However, the righteous have the triumphant expectation that ‘God will redeem [them] from the grave [Hebrew, Sheol]; he will surely take [them] to himself’ (Ps 49:15). The idea is the same as that of Genesis 5:24: God will snatch, take or receive us to himself when we die. If the psalmist had in mind the fact that he would be rescued from death for a few years, though he knows he still must eventually die like the beasts, then the psalm has very little, or no, point. Psalm 73:23-25 makes a similar contrast between the wicked and the righteous. Once again there is faith that reaches beyond this life, and it centers on this verb to take (Hebrew, laqah). Says the psalmist, ‘You guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will take me into glory’ (Ps 73:24).”
Kaiser also writes that “Accordingly, it can be argued on very strong linguistic and conceptual grounds that the ‘taking’ of a person from this earth implies that mortals are capable of inhabiting immortal realms. For the believer in Yahweh in Old Testament times, death did not end it all. There was life after death, and that life was to be in the presence of the living God. While Enoch did not experience ‘resurrection,’ he did experience glorification. He did, along with Elijah, transcend this mortal life and go in his body to be with God. Since Enoch had not died, he could not be resurrected.”
Many have argued that immortality is a New Testament idea despite the fact that passages such as the Psalms and Daniel 12:1-3 clearly refer to life after death and a bodily resurrection. In the 73rd Psalm a man named Asaph described how he almost lost his faith in God when he considered how evil people prospered and the godly suffered. But then he said he went into the sanctuary of God. From the perspective of worship, he suddenly saw evil men standing on the slippery ground of their mortality. With new insight he confessed, “You will guide me with Your counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but You? And there is none upon earth that I desire besides You. My flesh and my heart fail; but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever” (Ps. 73:24-26).
Other Psalms don’t explicitly deny existence after death and in some places seem to affirm continued existence after death, such as: Ps.16:10 “... will not abandon me to the grave... will... fill me with... eternal pleasures at your right hand.”; Ps. 21 “surely you have granted him eternal blessings.”; Ps. 49:15 “but God will redeem my life from the grave; he will surely take me to himself.”
Various other Old Testament passages also seem to suggest existence after death. David comforted himself with the knowledge that he would see his dead child once again, and Samuel appeared to Saul through the witch of Endor (1 Samuel 28).
Even the careful attention that the Hebrews paid to the remains of their dead suggest some notion of an afterlife (e.g., burial, burial rites, disinterment and re-burial, defense of dead bodies from predators, rescue of dead bodies being dishonored by enemies, and so on). This is typically used by anthropologists as evidence for such a belief, at any rate.
Finally, consider Job 14, which is a major Old Testament chapter on conscious life after death: “Man, who is born of woman, is short-lived and full of turmoil. Like a flower he comes forth and withers. He also flees like a shadow and does not remain. Thou also dost open Thine eyes on him, And bring him into judgment with Thyself. Who can make the clean out of the unclean? No one! Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with Thee, And his limits Thou hast set so that he cannot pass. Turn Thy gaze from him that he may rest, Until he fulfills his day like a hired man.”
“For there is hope for a tree, When it is cut down, that it will sprout again, And its shoots will not fail. Though its roots grow old in the ground, And its stump dies in the dry soil, At the scent of water it will flourish And put forth sprigs like a plant. But man dies and lies prostrate. Man expires, and where is he? As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens be no more, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep. Oh that Thou wouldst hide me in Sheol, That Thou wouldst conceal me until Thy wrath returns to Thee, That Thou wouldst set a limit for me and remember me! If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait, Until my change comes. Thou wilt call, and I will answer Thee” (Job 14:1-15).
Why is also a red flag that I don't actually hold a position that you consider to be a red flag? Why am I striking out for point that out to you? Shouldn't the fact that I don't actually hold a position that you consider to be a red flag be something that is good in your eyes and a reason to continue talking with me?
How many different colored flags you got over there?
Maybe try flying the white flag. He's enjoy that
Because you are intentionally misrepresenting the truth, or your are unable to discern the impact of your words. eitherway this will be a fruitless discussion. Because if you are going to intentionally deny what you've said despitebeing quoted on it, or if you do not understand what you've said nothing I say can hope to sink in.
This is another example of you do not understand or are intentionally misrepresenting what you have said. post 38 out line 3 separate instances/red flags of you misrepresenting what you have said..
No.
Red flag behavior is determined by your actions not how you feel about your actions.
Again...
When the Law was issued to Moses (800 years before Daniel) Nothing in the law even mentioned an afterlife let alone eternal life.
What this means is the law as it was written, and given to moses who agreed upon it and it's stipulations, had nothing to do with eternal life. Again Because eternal life was NEVER Mentioned in the Torah (First 5 books of the OT) The Sadducees Who made up the ruling class of priests in the temple during the time of Jesus, taught and believed that there was no afterlife of any Kind.
So bythe literal strictest interpretation of the law and the contract given in deut 28 to follow the law, there is no after life let alone eternal life. What this means is we can not follow the law and arrive at eternal life.
Again, I am not speaking about what later prophets said or did or if Jesus Himself confirmed these prophets. The statment being made is following the law will NOT provide you a path to eternal life. Can you agree with this statment?
Actually it's well established even when Jesus went to raise Lazarus from 4 days buried He told Martha He was there to resurrect Lazarus. She replied yes but in the last days. So there was already an established belief in the resurrection during the observance of the Mosaic Law.
John 11:24
Abraham believed had God allowed him to kill and offer up Isaac that Isaac would resurrect in order to fulfill the promise God assured to Abraham.
Deuteronomy 32:39
(Ha'azinu): God declares, "I deal death and give life; I wounded and I will heal represents dying first and then resurrecting.
Daniel 12:2
Daniel 12:13
So? Did God promise to raise everyone from the dead who obey the law?
Wow... This is a dishonest exegesis. This passage is God Describing His might and Authority in contrast to the False gods who fear Him.
Are you so willing to hand over your integrity, by misrepresenting what this passage actually says, just to 'win' an argument with some stranger on the internet?
This chapter identifies to whom God is speaking, and He is speaking to one specific generation of Jews.
36The Lord will vindicate his people
and relent concerning his servants
when he sees their strength is gone
and no one is left, slave or free.
37 He will say: “Now where are their gods,
the rock they took refuge in,
38 the gods who ate the fat of their sacrifices
and drank the wine of their drink offerings?
Let them rise up to help you!
Let them give you shelter!
39 “See now that I myself am he!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.
40 I lift my hand to heaven and solemnly swear:
As surely as I live forever,
41 when I sharpen my flashing sword
and my hand grasps it in judgment,
I will take vengeance on my adversaries
and repay those who hate me.
42 I will make my arrows drunk with blood,
while my sword devours flesh:
the blood of the slain and the captives,
the heads of the enemy leaders.”
43 Rejoice, you nations, with his people,
for he will avenge the blood of his servants;
he will take vengeance on his enemies
and make atonement for his land and people.
Daniel is Not part of the Torah.
Do you deny that the Sadducees taught there was no after life in the time of Jesus?
