looking for help reconciling the Sabbath with common observation?

[TMS]

That is a heck of a stretch to call Sunday observation the mark of the beast. If we stretch not keeping the Sabbath to it's farthest extent it still does not equate. Taking the mark is eternal damnation. You are no longer to be redeemed. We have seen God's judgement for not keeping the Sabbath. They were booted from their land yet redeemable as God returned them. There is no return when you take the mark. So no the mark is not any kind of observation of a day.

We will see... what the future brings.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

[TMS]

Consider Romans 5, where Paul's argument depends on the distinction between a transgression, a violation of what God explicitly commanded, and a sin, an immoral act. Death reigned from Adam till Moses, proving that sin existed, but until Moses, sin was not imputed or identified as such.

Rom 5:13-14
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sin was in the world before the law...

Sin is the transgression of the law.

The law was convicting people of sin before it was written on stone.


For example..

Does the commandment " thou shalt not commit adultery" appear before Joseph.

Joseph understood that Adultery was sin.
Gen 39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

Just because it is not recorded does not mean that God did not reveal what was sinful.

No law = no sin.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Entered that the offense, sin might abound..

God gave the law so sin could be easily identified... it does not say the moral law started at this point.

 

[Yissachar]

Paul stopped following the old covenant and started follow Jesus in the New Covenant when he got born again.
The judaizers hate that about Paul.

The Judaizers were a faction of early Jewish Christians who believed the Old Testament’s Levitical laws still had to be followed by all Christians. They pushed for Gentile converts to be circumcised and were strongly opposed by Paul (including in the incident at Antioch).



When the false teachers teach their false doctrines and someone does not agree to follow their false doctrines, the false teachers frequently claim those not agreeing to follow their false doctrines are false witnesses so this is par for course.

Paul did keep the Torah and the law.

But there is a distinction between the shadow laws and the laws that Paul kept.

Paul said.
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Abolished this law and nailed it to the cross.

But Paul also said...
Rom 3:31 KJV Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Establish the law which is good. Love keeps the law...

Same person.. the difference is which law Paul was referring to.

The shadow laws were nailed to the cross. Jesus was the antitype and there is no need to make animal sacrifices today when Jesus has offered up His blood.

Two different laws.

Colossians 2
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Are a shadow is the Present tense

the lawless read this verse as "were a shadow" of things to come, in the past tense and most of them don't even realize it.

Isaiah 66
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, saith YHWH.

The Issue of Colossians 2:16-17 had to do with the works of the law, which was found among the DSS, a checklist of how to be righteous, and eating certain types of foods and drinks on the appointed days made a person more righteous, they thought.

What Paul is saying is do not let them Judge you for not eating and drinking according to their vain philosophy of what they believe you need to be eating or drinking to keep these days.

They are a Shadow

 

[NightTwister]

So you admit you also cannot definitively prove Paul meant the 7th day sabbath.

It's up to you to prove he doesn't. So far, you haven't.

 

[Yissachar]

You say 9 of the 10 are moral laws but use col 2 to prove the sabbath was a shadow law.

Col 2 is specific about which laws were nailed to the cross.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The law of ordinances...

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

What was blotted out and nailed to the cross? ... the law of ordinances

Verse 16
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Sabbath days were a big part of the law of ordinances.

These sabbath days were rest days that fell on any day of the week. Including the 7th day...

Prove that the sabbath mentioned in Col 2:16 is the 7th day sabbath of the 10 commandments.

The annual sabbaths were ceremonial ordinances designed as temporary shadows pointing to the work of Christ.

The 7th day sabbath was created before sin.

The ceremonial "sabbaths" were part of the "handwriting of ordinances" delivered by Moses to the children of Israel. These days were connected to annual feasts, meats, drinks, and sacrificial offerings that prefigured the mission of the Messiah.

They were a shadow.

How does the weekly sabbath become a shadow of Christ. Don't say He is our rest, because the sabbath would need to be 24 hours 7 days a week.

These shadow days—such as the Passover, the Day of Atonement, and the Feast of Tabernacles—were "shadows of things to come," pointing forward to Christ's sacrifice and ministration.

If you use one verse to hold up the entire argument and this verse is questionable and contradicts other verses your argument is very weak.

Spare me your dogma

Ephesians 2:15

Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments in Decrees; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The word used for ordinances in Greek in Ephesians 2:15 is Dogma - It is not the Greek word Nomos = Law - Torah

In the New Testament, dogma consistently refers to human-made rules or traditions (Luke 2:1; Acts 16:4; 17:7; Eph. 2:15)

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. Luke 2:1

And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem. Acts 16:4

Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one YESHUA. Acts 17:7

Matthew 23:
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,

2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.

3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do

The works of the Law were The man-made decrees made by the religious rulers that the people had follow, That is what was nailed to the cross. The heavy burdens that were hard to bear that were against us.

Rip the word of God out of its Historic cultural context and you can make it say anything

 

[Roger316]

Apparently you cannot read and you have embraced deception that puts women in authority

Quote from - 1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife

Quote from - Titus 1:6-9
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God

I see, you have incorrectly assumed that 1 Timothy 2 is a teaching on Bishops, which it isn't.

 

[Roger316]

There are no passages the make 1 Timothy 3:1-13 and Titus 1:6-9 to be lies allowing women to be pastors, teachers are church leaders in authority over men within the Body of Christ.

Again, 1 Timothy 2 isn't talking about pastors or bishops or presbyters. It is talking about husbands and wives.

Woman can teach other women and they can teach children.
But they cannot teach men as they would be inverting God's ways of being and doing right.

I know you believe this and your belief is not that uncommon but it isn't proven from 1 Timothy 2.

Jesus had opportunity to select at least one woman to be one of His Apostles but He did not because He never inverted God's ways of being and doing right like the tares seek to do in opposition to the Lord.

1 Timothy 2 is not talking about apostles either.

 

[Roger316]

God made the sabbath for man and God made it for for before sin

Before sin. Murder was wrong.
Before sin. Taking God's name in vain was wrong.
Before sin Lying was wrong.

If God made the sabbath holy and sanctified it for man before sin... it was sinful to not keep it holy and not sanctify it.

If was sinful to transgress all 10 of the commandments before God wrote them in stone.

Again, this is something you need to prove from the scriptures, which you can't.

 

[Roger316]

You say 9 of the 10 are moral laws but use col 2 to prove the sabbath was a shadow law.

Col 2 is specific about which laws were nailed to the cross.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The law of ordinances...

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

What was blotted out and nailed to the cross? ... the law of ordinances

Verse 16
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Sabbath days were a big part of the law of ordinances.

These sabbath days were rest days that fell on any day of the week. Including the 7th day...

Prove that the sabbath mentioned in Col 2:16 is the 7th day sabbath of the 10 commandments.

The annual sabbaths were ceremonial ordinances designed as temporary shadows pointing to the work of Christ.

The 7th day sabbath was created before sin.

The ceremonial "sabbaths" were part of the "handwriting of ordinances" delivered by Moses to the children of Israel. These days were connected to annual feasts, meats, drinks, and sacrificial offerings that prefigured the mission of the Messiah.

They were a shadow.

How does the weekly sabbath become a shadow of Christ. Don't say He is our rest, because the sabbath would need to be 24 hours 7 days a week.

These shadow days—such as the Passover, the Day of Atonement, and the Feast of Tabernacles—were "shadows of things to come," pointing forward to Christ's sacrifice and ministration.

If you use one verse to hold up the entire argument and this verse is questionable and contradicts other verses your argument is very weak.

It is simple. When Paul says Don't let anyone judge you about a Sabbath Day, and the Weekly Sabbath is a Sabbath day, then the weekly Sabbath is included in Paul's exhortation.

 

[Roger316]

Rom 5:13-14
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sin was in the world before the law...

Sin is the transgression of the law.

The law was convicting people of sin before it was written on stone.


For example..

Does the commandment " thou shalt not commit adultery" appear before Joseph.

Joseph understood that Adultery was sin.
Gen 39:9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?

Just because it is not recorded does not mean that God did not reveal what was sinful.

No law = no sin.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Entered that the offense, sin might abound..

God gave the law so sin could be easily identified... it does not say the moral law started at this point.

You are making an equivalence that John didn't intend. When John said that sin is transgression of the Law, he didn't mean to equate the two.

When John writes, "sin is lawlessness" (1 John 3:4), he is not restricting sin to violations of the Mosaic Law. The term "lawlessness" points to a broader principle of rebellion against God's authority rather than merely breaking commands given at Sinai. This is evident because sin existed long before Moses received the Law. Adam sinned in the Garden, Satan sinned before Adam, and Paul teaches that "sin was in the world before the law was given" (Romans 5:13). John's concern is not simply legal infractions against the Mosaic covenant but the fundamental attitude of refusing God's rule. Every sin, whether committed by Jew or Gentile, reflects this spirit of lawlessness. Thus, John is defining the essence of sin itself: it is the creature's rejection of the Creator's rightful authority and the determination to live independently of His will. 1 John 3:4 describes sin not merely as breaking a particular set of commandments, but as rebellion against God wherever and whenever it occurs. [biblehub.com], [biblehub.com]

The Fourth Commandment is unique among the Ten Commandments because it serves primarily as a covenant sign rather than an expression of God's timeless moral law. Murder, adultery, theft, lying, and coveting are inherently sinful in every age because they violate God's moral character and human relationships. Sabbath observance, however, was given to Israel as a distinctive sign of the Mosaic covenant (Exodus 31:13-17). This explains why the New Testament repeatedly condemns violations of the other commandments but never commands Christians to observe the seventh-day Sabbath. Instead, the apostles emphasize the believer's freedom regarding Sabbath observance and point to Christ as the fulfillment of the rest to which the Sabbath pointed. Therefore, the Fourth Commandment is best understood as a covenantal requirement for Israel rather than a universal moral imperative for all people in all ages.

 

[Churchgoer]

So far only one person discloses his saturday sabbath practice.
What about the other Saturday sabbath people? What's your practice to follow your believe on Saturday?

 

[Freed18]

So far only one person discloses his saturday sabbath practice.
What about the other Saturday sabbath people? What's your practice to follow your believe on Saturday?

I keep everyday holy.

 

[Davidstarr]

It's up to you to prove he doesn't. So far, you haven't.

No, it's up to those who claim he IS talking about the 7th day sabbath.

So far no one can.

 

[Davidstarr]

Spare me your dogma

Ephesians 2:15

Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments in Decrees; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The word used for ordinances in Greek in Ephesians 2:15 is Dogma - It is not the Greek word Nomos = Law - Torah

In the New Testament, dogma consistently refers to human-made rules or traditions (Luke 2:1; Acts 16:4; 17:7; Eph. 2:15)

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. Luke 2:1

And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem. Acts 16:4

Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one YESHUA. Acts 17:7

Matthew 23:
1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,

2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.

3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do

The works of the Law were The man-made decrees made by the religious rulers that the people had follow, That is what was nailed to the cross. The heavy burdens that were hard to bear that were against us.

Rip the word of God out of its Historic cultural context and you can make it say anything

God's 10 commandments are not human-made rules. They were spoken by God from the top of Mt. Sinai. Then written on stone by His own finger.

If you think the 10 commandments have been abolished then why don't you go out and murder people? Steal, take their wives?
Obviously you think there is nothing wrong in doing those things.

 

[Davidstarr]

It is simple. When Paul says Don't let anyone judge you about a Sabbath Day, and the Weekly Sabbath is a Sabbath day, then the weekly Sabbath is included in Paul's exhortation.

Human supposition. Not bible fact.
The entire text (and context) speaks of the Levitical/ceremonial laws.
Where does the text say anything about any of the 10 commandments?

 

[Davidstarr]

I keep everyday holy.

Yet you break the 4th commandment if you do not work 6 days and rest from that labor on the 7th day sabbath.

Of course, as Christians, we worship God every day.
That's not what the 4th commandment is about.
I suggest you read/study Exo 20:8-11 for yourself. Se what it says.
Or are just 4 verses to hard for you?

 

[Yissachar]

God's 10 commandments are not human-made rules. They were spoken by God from the top of Mt. Sinai. Then written on stone by His own finger.

If you think the 10 commandments have been abolished then why don't you go out and murder people? Steal, take their wives?
Obviously you think there is nothing wrong in doing those things.

Read my post again, I never said or implied any commandments of God have been abolished, not one jot or tittle

 

[NightTwister]

No, it's up to those who claim he IS talking about the 7th day sabbath.

So far no one can.

Sabbaths is plural. Unless specifically specified, it includes all of them. You're reading into the text what isn't there. We don't have to prove anything.

 

[Davidstarr]

Sabbaths is plural. Unless specifically specified, it includes all of them. You're reading into the text what isn't there. We don't have to prove anything.

It DOES specifically specify:
"in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon" is part of the context.
These things are not found in the 10 commandments.
It is talking about all the ceremonial sabbaths. There were several of them in the Mosaic Law. Including one year in 7 of rest for the land.
Nothing specific about the 7th day of the week sabbath.

You guys really love to take things out of the context.
It makes it easier to redefine the meanings of words and verses.
Makes it easier to ignore what is right there under your nose.

Do you actually think God's 10 commandments have been abolished?
If you break even 1 commandment out of the 10 you have broken God's law.

 

[frederickdoc]

It DOES specifically specify:
"in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon" is part of the context.
These things are not found in the 10 commandments.
It is talking about all the ceremonial sabbaths. There were several of them in the Mosaic Law. Including one year in 7 of rest for the land.
Nothing specific about the 7th day of the week sabbath.

You guys really love to take things out of the context.
It makes it easier to redefine the meanings of words and verses.
Makes it easier to ignore what is right there under your nose.

Do you actually think God's 10 commandments have been abolished?
If you break even 1 commandment out of the 10 you have broken God's law.

Love love the Lord your God all your heart All your Soul & mind
The second one would be do not Grieve the Holy Spirit or should that be the first one?