Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[Revelation1v8]

Revelation 13 doesn't say every believer on earth is killed before Christ returns.
It says the beast is given authority to make war with the saints and overcome them.
That describes severe persecution, not necessarily the extinction of all believers.

Revelation 13 may not say it, but didn't you author a whole thread on what happens in Revelation 19 upon Jesus' return or right before it?

 

[Revelation1v8]

Revelation 13 does not say every person on earth takes the mark.
It says the beast causes all to receive the mark, but the chapter itself distinguishes between those who worship the beast and those whose names are written in the Book of Life.

More importantly, if every believer is either martyred or takes the mark before Christ returns, then you still have to explain passages that describe living believers at His coming.
The problem is that you're taking:

The beast overcomes the saints.
Many saints are martyred.
A great multitude appears in heaven.
and then adding:
Therefore every believer is dead before Christ returns.
That last step is not actually stated in the text.

Revelation certainly teaches massive persecution and martyrdom.
What it does not explicitly say is, "No believer remains alive on earth when Christ returns."

That's why posttribbers keep pointing back to Matthew 24:29-31.
Jesus explicitly places the gathering of His elect after the tribulation.
So if Revelation 13 is interpreted to mean there are no believers left to gather, then that interpretation has to be reconciled with Jesus' own stated sequence.
The debate is not over whether there is martyrdom.
The debate is whether martyrdom equals total extinction of all believers before Christ's return.
The text never explicitly says that.

True. So, Revelation 19 must be showing a past and future event in the same chapter.

 

[OMC]

True. So, Revelation 19 must be showing a past and future event in the same chapter.

Not necessarily.
Revelation frequently shifts between heavenly scenes and earthly scenes without always moving in strict chronological order.
So the fact that Revelation 19 shows saints in heaven does not automatically prove they arrived there seven years earlier, nor does it automatically prove a pretrib rapture.
My point is simpler: if Revelation 13 does not explicitly say all believers are gone by Christ's return, then that conclusion has to come from putting several passages together.
Likewise, if Revelation 19 is being used to prove all believers were removed earlier, that also has to be demonstrated from the text rather than assumed.
In other words, both sides are harmonizing passages.
The question is which harmony best accounts for all the data.
You see Revelation 14's firstfruits and Revelation 19's heavenly saints as pointing back to a pretrib gathering.
Posttribbers see Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:27 as placing the gathering at Christ's visible return.
So the real issue is not whether Revelation 19 contains heavenly saints.
Everyone agrees it does.
The issue is whether the text explicitly tells us when they arrived there.
That's the step still under debate.

 

[Revelation1v8]

It says in mat 24; after the trib, Jesus sends( he does not do any gathering)
He sends angels to gather in heaven.

In no way is that a postrib rapture of anyone on earth.

IOW angels gather saints in heaven to the white horses AFTER THE TRIB.

IOW After the trib,there is an assembly of saints to the white horses, in heaven.

Now I can see why the Bible mentions the wheat harvest being gathered together into His barn before He burns the tares in Matthew 13.

This is what makes interpreting the Bible so difficult. In some chapters, it shows us the big picture, but it never tells you the time or the stage in which each even happens until another book or chapter comes along to see the smaller picture within the bigger picture that includes more details.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Not necessarily.
Revelation frequently shifts between heavenly scenes and earthly scenes without always moving in strict chronological order.
So the fact that Revelation 19 shows saints in heaven does not automatically prove they arrived there seven years earlier, nor does it automatically prove a pretrib rapture.
My point is simpler: if Revelation 13 does not explicitly say all believers are gone by Christ's return, then that conclusion has to come from putting several passages together.
Likewise, if Revelation 19 is being used to prove all believers were removed earlier, that also has to be demonstrated from the text rather than assumed.
In other words, both sides are harmonizing passages.
The question is which harmony best accounts for all the data.
You see Revelation 14's firstfruits and Revelation 19's heavenly saints as pointing back to a pretrib gathering.
Posttribbers see Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:27 as placing the gathering at Christ's visible return.
So the real issue is not whether Revelation 19 contains heavenly saints.
Everyone agrees it does.
The issue is whether the text explicitly tells us when they arrived there.
That's the step still under debate.

Again, the timing is never mentioned. It just shows us images to try and help us get to a timing conclusion.

That's why it's been pointed out before that Revelation 5 could be pointing to a pre-trib rapture just because of the fact that they appear in Heaven before Jesus even starts to release the seal judgements. Now, that doesn't prove the timing, it could just be showing us an overall view, but I think we can see where people think it points to a pre-trib rapture. I'm liking how Psalms1 is pointing to other verses I haven't considered before as pointing that same direction too.

 

[OMC]

Again, the timing is never mentioned. It just shows us images to try and help us get to a timing conclusion.

That's why it's been pointed out before that Revelation 5 could be pointing to a pre-trib rapture just because of the fact that they appear in Heaven before Jesus even starts to release the seal judgements. Now, that doesn't prove the timing, it could just be showing us an overall view, but I think we can see where people think it points to a pre-trib rapture. I'm liking how Psalms1 is pointing to other verses I haven't considered before as pointing that same direction too.

That's a fair observation, and I think it actually cuts both ways.
Revelation is full of visions, heavenly scenes, flashbacks, previews, and symbols.
Simply seeing redeemed people in heaven before the seals are opened does not automatically prove a pretrib rapture.
But neither should those scenes be dismissed without consideration.
I can absolutely see why someone would look at Revelation 5, Revelation 14, the 144,000 as firstfruits, and the heavenly armies of Revelation 19 and conclude they point toward a pretrib gathering.
My only caution is that possibility is not the same as certainty.
The same book contains passages that many interpret differently, especially Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:27, and Revelation 20.
So I think the strongest argument is not, "This one verse proves pretrib," but rather, "How do all these passages fit together into the most coherent picture?"
That's where the real debate is.
You're right that Revelation often gives images that point us toward conclusions rather than explicitly stating every timing detail.
The question is which conclusion best accounts for all the images, not just one of them.

 

[Revelation1v8]

So I think the strongest argument is not, "This one verse proves pretrib," but rather, "How do all these passages fit together into the most coherent picture?"
That's where the real debate is.
You're right that Revelation often gives images that point us toward conclusions rather than explicitly stating every timing detail.
The question is which conclusion best accounts for all the images, not just one of them.

That's what I've been saying all along, brother. We have to take every word of the Bible into account to get to the bottom of what we believe to be the conclusion, not that we'll ever fully get there if we're demanding ABSOLUTE PROOF.

 

[Revelation1v8]

That's what I've been saying all along, brother. We have to take every word of the Bible into account to get to the bottom of what we believe to be the conclusion, not that we'll ever fully get there if we're demanding ABSOLUTE PROOF.

@OMC , I see all of us working this out much like the Apostles. Some things Jesus said isn't going to make sense to us until AFTER we see it happen and then it's going to dawn on us.

--

 

[OMC]

I see all of us working this out much like the Apostles. Some things Jesus said isn't going to make sense to us until AFTER we see it happen and then it's going to dawn on us

I think there's wisdom in that.
The apostles repeatedly misunderstood things Jesus said until after the events occurred.
Jesus spoke of His death and resurrection plainly, yet they did not fully grasp it until afterward.
Luke 24 even says their understanding was opened later.
That doesn't mean prophecy is unknowable.
It does mean we should hold some prophetic conclusions with humility.
We should study diligently, compare Scripture with Scripture, and defend our views from the text, but also recognize that some details may become clearer only when the events themselves unfold.
In that sense, pretribbers, posttribbers, and others may all discover that certain passages fit together more clearly in hindsight than they do now.
The important thing is to be faithful to what is clearly revealed while remaining teachable about what is still debated.
The apostles were sincere before the fulfillment and understood much more after the fulfillment.
We may find ourselves in a similar position regarding some prophetic details.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Right you aren’t instructed to submit to god of satans already bound ……. We can overcome through christ this enemy who’s not bound ….but actively trying to destroy people

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour he isn’t bound and he’s actively working to destroy ) whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬


to be clear Christian’s can overcome the very real and very active enemy they face in the world through Christ