Replacement theology? Yes or No.

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I do not know why you think God would not intend to make Himself known in the second temple restoration.

Most prophetic books don't cover one event only, but if we had to pick a verse out of that list to prove that the second temple restoration wasn't the period in which Israel would turn back to God is....

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.

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Most prophetic books don't cover one event only, but if we had to pick a verse out of that list to prove that the second temple restoration wasn't the period in which Israel would turn back to God is....

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.

--

I actually find it very sad that you are not able to see that Ezekiel 39:22 has been true ever since the second temple restoration.
The house of Israel are a people, not a temple, priesthood, king or land.
The Temple, priesthood, king and land are now all provided for in Jesus, as we understand from the book of Hebrews.
The only thing that is still incomplete is the regathering of the people.
If only you were able to see that Jesus is the one who chooses His people not us, you would see how beautifully that prophesy is being fulfilled.
 
Most prophetic books don't cover one event only, but if we had to pick a verse out of that list to prove that the second temple restoration wasn't the period in which Israel would turn back to God is....

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward
That's actually one of the strongest verses against identifying the post-exilic restoration as the complete fulfillment.
Ezekiel 39:22 says: "So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward."

The problem for the second-temple view is obvious.
After the return from Babylon, Israel did not permanently know the Lord "from that day and forward."
The historical record, the Gospels, and the prophets themselves show continued unbelief, corruption, and ultimately the rejection of Messiah by many in the nation.
Ezekiel is describing a turning point after which Israel's covenant relationship with God is permanently restored. The surrounding context reinforces this: "Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel" (Ezek. 39:29).
That language goes beyond the partial restoration under Zerubbabel, Ezra, and Nehemiah. God's face is no longer hidden. His Spirit is poured out. Israel knows the Lord from that day forward.

This harmonizes with other restoration passages:
Jeremiah 31:34: "they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them."
Ezekiel 36:26-28: God gives them a new heart and causes them to walk in His statutes.
Zechariah 12:10: they look upon the One whom they pierced and mourn.
Romans 11:26-27: "And so all Israel shall be saved."

So if someone claims Ezekiel 39 was completely fulfilled in the second-temple era, verse 22 becomes a significant obstacle.
The nation did return to the land, but the universal and enduring knowledge of the Lord described here did not characterize Israel "from that day and forward."
That aspect of the prophecy points to a greater restoration than the one following the Babylonian captivity.
 
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That's actually one of the strongest verses against identifying the post-exilic restoration as the complete fulfillment.
Ezekiel 39:22 says: "So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward."

The problem for the second-temple view is obvious.
After the return from Babylon, Israel did not permanently know the Lord "from that day and forward."
The historical record, the Gospels, and the prophets themselves show continued unbelief, corruption, and ultimately the rejection of Messiah by many in the nation.
Ezekiel is describing a turning point after which Israel's covenant relationship with God is permanently restored. The surrounding context reinforces this: "Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel" (Ezek. 39:29).
That language goes beyond the partial restoration under Zerubbabel, Ezra, and Nehemiah. God's face is no longer hidden. His Spirit is poured out. Israel knows the Lord from that day forward.

This harmonizes with other restoration passages:
Jeremiah 31:34: "they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them."
Ezekiel 36:26-28: God gives them a new heart and causes them to walk in His statutes.
Zechariah 12:10: they look upon the One whom they pierced and mourn.
Romans 11:26-27: "And so all Israel shall be saved."

So if someone claims Ezekiel 39 was completely fulfilled in the second-temple era, verse 22 becomes a significant obstacle.
The nation did return to the land, but the universal and enduring knowledge of the Lord described here did not characterize Israel "from that day and forward."
That aspect of the prophecy points to a greater restoration than the one following the Babylonian captivity.

The obstacle that you see is not in Ezekiel 39:22, but in the assumption that it means that every single Israelite will know God.
The verse does not actually say that.
God is concerned with the believing remnant who are His true people.
That has been the way of God throughout the entire story, and continues to be so until now.
 
I actually find it very sad that you are not able to see that Ezekiel 39:22 has been true ever since the second temple restoration.
The house of Israel are a people, not a temple, priesthood, king or land.
The Temple, priesthood, king and land are now all provided for in Jesus, as we understand from the book of Hebrews.
The only thing that is still incomplete is the regathering of the people.
If only you were able to see that Jesus is the one who chooses His people not us, you would see how beautifully that prophesy is being fulfilled.

I think you missed the point of my post entirely.

Until they recognize Jesus as their Lord and God, they don't know who God is. That's what Jesus told all of them when He basically told the Jews, if you don't me, you never knew my Father either.

--
 
That's actually one of the strongest verses against identifying the post-exilic restoration as the complete fulfillment.
Ezekiel 39:22 says: "So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward."

The problem for the second-temple view is obvious.
After the return from Babylon, Israel did not permanently know the Lord "from that day and forward."
The historical record, the Gospels, and the prophets themselves show continued unbelief, corruption, and ultimately the rejection of Messiah by many in the nation.
Ezekiel is describing a turning point after which Israel's covenant relationship with God is permanently restored. The surrounding context reinforces this: "Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel" (Ezek. 39:29).
That language goes beyond the partial restoration under Zerubbabel, Ezra, and Nehemiah. God's face is no longer hidden. His Spirit is poured out. Israel knows the Lord from that day forward.

This harmonizes with other restoration passages:
Jeremiah 31:34: "they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them."
Ezekiel 36:26-28: God gives them a new heart and causes them to walk in His statutes.
Zechariah 12:10: they look upon the One whom they pierced and mourn.
Romans 11:26-27: "And so all Israel shall be saved."

So if someone claims Ezekiel 39 was completely fulfilled in the second-temple era, verse 22 becomes a significant obstacle.
The nation did return to the land, but the universal and enduring knowledge of the Lord described here did not characterize Israel "from that day and forward."
That aspect of the prophecy points to a greater restoration than the one following the Babylonian captivity.

Yes, plus, Ezekiel 39:29 mirrors Isaiah 54:8

Ezekiel 39:29

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.

Isaiah 54:8

8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
 
The obstacle that you see is not in Ezekiel 39:22, but in the assumption that it means that every single Israelite will know God.
The verse does not actually say that.
God is concerned with the believing remnant who are His true people.
That has been the way of God throughout the entire story, and continues to be so until now.

When Romans 11:26-27 says that "all Israel will be saved" it means at that point, the LAND, another REMNANT, and CHRISTIANS will be saved.

The land and the remnant are saved in order to preserve the land and the people so that they can be restored, rebuild, and repopulate all over AGAIN (for 1,000 years) so that their numbers will become like the number of sand.

According to Isaiah 54:1-10, the Israelites living in the New Covenant (Millennial Kingdom period) will increase and outnumber the faithful people who ever lived under the Old Covenant.
 
I think you missed the point of my post entirely.

Until they recognize Jesus as their Lord and God, they don't know who God is. That's what Jesus told all of them when He basically told the Jews, if you don't me, you never knew my Father either.

--

I think I already knew that you had that approach, but you focus on the Jews that do not believe rather than those that do.
It is not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

Ezekiel 39:22 is not a declaration that from that day forward there will be no unbelieving Israelites.
A reader can understand it that way, but that is the choice of the reader.
Another reader might come to the verse already believing that Jesus is the king, temple and priesthood of Israel and recognize that the believing remnant that the verse refers to has been there ever since.
 
I think I already knew that you had that approach, but you focus on the Jews that do not believe rather than those that do.
It is not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

Ezekiel 39:22 is not a declaration that from that day forward there will be no unbelieving Israelites.
A reader can understand it that way, but that is the choice of the reader.
Another reader might come to the verse already believing that Jesus is the king, temple and priesthood of Israel and recognize that the believing remnant that the verse refers to has been there ever since.

No, I've mentioned the remnant over and over again. The ones that God/Jesus refines with fire in Zechariah 13:8-9. Existing Christians in Israel won't need to be refined with fire.

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No, I've mentioned the remnant over and over again. The ones that God/Jesus refines with fire in Zechariah 13:8-9. Existing Christians in Israel won't need to be refined with fire.

--

@Beekeeper, while it never comes out and says so directly, the fact that Jesus cuts 2/3 out of the land and has to refine the remaining 1/3, infers to me that the existing believers may not even be on the earth at that point and could have been harvested or raptured already.

--
 
When Romans 11:26-27 says that "all Israel will be saved" it means at that point, the LAND, another REMNANT, and CHRISTIANS will be saved.

The land and the remnant are saved in order to preserve the land and the people so that they can be restored, rebuild, and repopulate all over AGAIN (for 1,000 years) so that their numbers will become like the number of sand.

According to Isaiah 54:1-10, the Israelites living in the New Covenant (Millennial Kingdom period) will increase and outnumber the faithful people who ever lived under the Old Covenant.

Again, it is you that makes the choice to believe that Romans 11:26-27 means all those things.
So now we try to apply all those concepts to Ezekiel 39:22 and waddoya know? it doesn't work!

We are now in a position where we are transporting a long list of old testament tribes from Eze. 38 and 39 to the far distant future along with their old weapons, horses, burial practices, wood burning dependency, and historic their events.
If the fulfillment time is to come immediately after Jesus has been ruling Israel for 1000 years, how would we even reconcile the next verse:

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

What would Israel be doing in the Babylonian captivity being sliced up with swords again?
Why would the heathen need to know the reason if they are all just about to burn in hell?
When God brings back again the "captivity of Jacob" in v.25, who is He clearing His name to?
The damned in hell?

There is no point in me going on like that, because I think we already can see that those two chapters do not fit into the time of the end of the world, and they do indeed reference the past.

I have rebuilt truck engines before and know that when you find parts that are left over, the only solution is to strip the whole thing back and start again.
 
No, I've mentioned the remnant over and over again. The ones that God/Jesus refines with fire in Zechariah 13:8-9. Existing Christians in Israel won't need to be refined with fire.

--

I don't understand that one.
How does being in Israel take away the need to be refined with fire?
My family comes from Israel and they tell me it is really not that magic over there.
 
Again, it is you that makes the choice to believe that Romans 11:26-27 means all those things.
So now we try to apply all those concepts to Ezekiel 39:22 and waddoya know? it doesn't work!

We are now in a position where we are transporting a long list of old testament tribes from Eze. 38 and 39 to the far distant future along with their old weapons, horses, burial practices, wood burning dependency, and historic their events.
If the fulfillment time is to come immediately after Jesus has been ruling Israel for 1000 years, how would we even reconcile the next verse:

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

What would Israel be doing in the Babylonian captivity being sliced up with swords again?
Why would the heathen need to know the reason if they are all just about to burn in hell?
When God brings back again the "captivity of Jacob" in v.25, who is He clearing His name to?
The damned in hell?

There is no point in me going on like that, because I think we already can see that those two chapters do not fit into the time of the end of the world, and they do indeed reference the past.

I have rebuilt truck engines before and know that when you find parts that are left over, the only solution is to strip the whole thing back and start again.

Well, I was just studying Isaiah 54 again and I'm noticing verses about events happening on earth, flash to a couple of verses specifically tied to heaven, and then it goes back to describing the earth again.

Maybe Ezekiel 39 is written in a similar way. Maybe a past event is being intermingled with a future event instead of the chapter starting out with a past event and ending with a future event.

I'll go do some research on that and let you know what I'm able to find.
 
Well, I was just studying Isaiah 54 again and I'm noticing verses about events happening on earth, flash to a couple of verses specifically tied to heaven, and then it goes back to describing the earth again.

Maybe Ezekiel 39 is written in a similar way. Maybe a past event is being intermingled with a future event instead of the chapter starting out with a past event and ending with a future event.

I'll go do some research on that and let you know what I'm able to find.

@Beekeeper, I just presented this question to by Brave A.I. Assistant and this is what it is telling me:

Yes, Ezekiel 39 is written with past, present, and future events intermingled rather than presented in strict chronological order. Scholars note that the chapter is not entirely in "time order" and that the prophet uses repetition and literary expansion to emphasize details, sometimes jumping between different time periods.

Key indicators of this non-linear structure include:
  • Chronological Dislocation: The oracle on Gog (Chapters 38–39) is chronologically placed after the vision of the last nine chapters (40–48), which describe the Millennial Kingdom, yet it appears earlier in the book. This suggests the original collection may have ended at Chapter 39, with the temple vision added later.
  • Shifts in Perspective: Verses 25–29 do not strictly belong to the Gog oracle; instead, the prophet returns to the standpoint of the present to predict Israel's restoration, which had been assumed as an accomplished fact in the preceding verses.
  • Literary Repetition: Ezekiel employs a Hebrew literary practice of recounting an event and then retelling it with greater emphasis and detail (e.g., the defeat of Gog is described in Chapter 38 and then expanded upon in Chapter 39), rather than simply moving to a new sequential event.
  • Mixed Timelines: The text describes future events (the defeat of Gog) alongside immediate future actions (Israel using weapons for fuel for seven years) and past or present theological reflections (God's covenant with Israel), creating a composite vision rather than a linear timeline.
 
The obstacle that you see is not in Ezekiel 39:22, but in the assumption that it means that every single Israelite will know God.
The verse does not actually say that.
God is concerned with the believing remnant who are His true people.
That has been the way of God throughout the entire story, and continues to be so until now.
The remnant argument sounds appealing at first, but it runs into a textual problem.
Ezekiel 39:22 does not say a remnant of Israel will know the Lord.
It says, "the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward."
The subject is not narrowed to a remnant.
The phrase "house of Israel" is the covenant nation spoken of throughout the restoration section.
The context strengthens this point.
Verse 28 says God gathers them "into their own land" and leaves "none of them any more there."
Verse 29 says He will no longer hide His face from them because He has poured out His Spirit upon the house of Israel.
This is comprehensive restoration language, not merely a description of the faithful minority that always existed within Israel.

The remnant theme is certainly biblical, but the question is whether Ezekiel 39 is describing only the remnant.
The text itself points the opposite direction.
A remnant already knew the Lord before the exile.
Ezekiel is describing a future turning point so significant that the house of Israel as a whole comes into a restored covenant relationship with God.
Paul's discussion in Romans 11 is relevant here.
Paul recognizes a present remnant (Rom. 11:5), yet he still speaks of a future event when "all Israel shall be saved" (Rom. 11:26).
That distinction is important. The remnant and the future national restoration are not the same thing.

So the issue is not whether God has always worked through a believing remnant. He has.
The issue is whether Ezekiel 39:22-29 can be reduced to the remnant principle.
The language of the passage seems too broad for that.
If the prophecy were fulfilled merely by the existence of a faithful remnant after the exile, then nothing uniquely new happened, because God had a faithful remnant before the exile as well.
The force of Ezekiel's prophecy is that a decisive restoration occurs in which God's face is no longer hidden, His Spirit is poured out, and the house of Israel knows Him "from that day and forward."
That goes beyond the ordinary remnant pattern and points to a greater restoration than the post-Babylonian return.
 
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I don't understand that one.
How does being in Israel take away the need to be refined with fire?
My family comes from Israel and they tell me it is really not that magic over there.

I think I was expanding on my view at the same time you asked this question, so I'll post my answer to that again here:

"While it never comes out and says so directly, the fact that Jesus cuts 2/3 out of the land and has to refine the remaining 1/3, infers to me that the existing believers may not even be on the earth at that point and could have been harvested or raptured already."

Maybe I should make myself more clear on what constitutes the LAND, I've accidentally left that out in some of my previous posts. When God/Jesus mentions the land, He's talking about the promised land, otherwise it mentions the earth or the world.
 
I think I was expanding on my view at the same time you asked this question, so I'll post my answer to that again here:

"While it never comes out and says so directly, the fact that Jesus cuts 2/3 out of the land and has to refine the remaining 1/3, infers to me that the existing believers may not even be on the earth at that point and could have been harvested or raptured already."

Maybe I should make myself more clear on what constitutes the LAND, I've accidentally left that out in some of my previous posts. When God/Jesus mentions the land, it's talking about the promised land, otherwise it mentions the earth or the world.

@Beekeeper, in case I still didn't answer your question. When I see God/Jesus refining with fire, I see two things either going on. Either a refining process done through the Holy Spirit or a refining process where the fiery events of the Great Tribulation period combined with the Holy Spirit are finally waking up the people to God/Jesus.
 
The remnant argument sounds appealing at first, but it runs into a textual problem.
Ezekiel 39:22 does not say a remnant of Israel will know the Lord.
It says, "the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward."
The subject is not narrowed to a remnant.
The phrase "house of Israel" is the covenant nation spoken of throughout the restoration section.
The context strengthens this point.
Verse 28 says God gathers them "into their own land" and leaves "none of them any more there."
Verse 29 says He will no longer hide His face from them because He has poured out His Spirit upon the house of Israel.
This is comprehensive restoration language, not merely a description of the faithful minority that always existed within Israel.

The remnant theme is certainly biblical, but the question is whether Ezekiel 39 is describing only the remnant.
The text itself points the opposite direction.
A remnant already knew the Lord before the exile.
Ezekiel is describing a future turning point so significant that the house of Israel as a whole comes into a restored covenant relationship with God.
Paul's discussion in Romans 11 is relevant here.
Paul recognizes a present remnant (Rom. 11:5), yet he still speaks of a future event when "all Israel shall be saved" (Rom. 11:26).
That distinction is important. The remnant and the future national restoration are not the same thing.

So the issue is not whether God has always worked through a believing remnant. He has.
The issue is whether Ezekiel 39:22-29 can be reduced to the remnant principle.
The language of the passage seems too broad for that.
If the prophecy were fulfilled merely by the existence of a faithful remnant after the exile, then nothing uniquely new happened, because God had a faithful remnant before the exile as well.
The force of Ezekiel's prophecy is that a decisive restoration occurs in which God's face is no longer hidden, His Spirit is poured out, and the house of Israel knows Him "from that day and forward."
That goes beyond the ordinary remnant pattern and points to a greater restoration than the post-Babylonian return.

If Ez.39:22 happened in the time of the second temple restoration you have your answer already, because that was a time of spiritual revival for Israel, which we should not underestimate.
That would mean that the remnant just grew a whole lot bigger.
You could be unsatisfied with that explanation because times of falling away also followed for Israel, but that is not the desire for Israel that God expressed in 39:22, and I can not offer you a better one.
If you wish to resolve that dissatisfaction by placing the entire controversy of Ez. 38 and 39 into a future event on the basis of that one verse, you have yourself a long list of problems, Heuston.

I am not among those that expect there to come a future event where all you need to do to be saved is be Jewish, because I think it would take a person other than Jesus to do the saving on that basis.
Jesus has rather fixed ideas on what who He considers to be children of Abraham and who he does not (John 8:33-44).
If you ask me about Romans 11:26 I would tell you that the day that all Israel will be saved is the same day that the last Gentile repents and believes.
Don't worry though, because that guy could possibly be an Israeli, because I consider them Gentiles too, even if they are half Jewish.
"Gentiles" means "nations" remember, and it defines people who are outside the commonwealth of old covenant Israel.
 
If Ez.39:22 happened in the time of the second temple restoration you have your answer already, because that was a time of spiritual revival for Israel, which we should not underestimate.
That would mean that the remnant just grew a whole lot bigger.
You could be unsatisfied with that explanation because times of falling away also followed for Israel, but that is not the desire for Israel that God expressed in 39:22, and I can not offer you a better one.
If you wish to resolve that dissatisfaction by placing the entire controversy of Ez. 38 and 39 into a future event on the basis of that one verse, you have yourself a long list of problems, Heuston.

I am not among those that expect there to come a future event where all you need to do to be saved is be Jewish, because I think it would take a person other than Jesus to do the saving on that basis.
Jesus has rather fixed ideas on what who He considers to be children of Abraham and who he does not (John 8:33-44).
If you ask me about Romans 11:26 I would tell you that the day that all Israel will be saved is the same day that the last Gentile repents and believes.
Don't worry though, because that guy could possibly be an Israeli, because I consider them Gentiles too, even if they are half Jewish.
"Gentiles" means "nations" remember, and it defines people who are outside the commonwealth of old covenant Israel.
I don't think that resolves the textual problem.
You're suggesting Ezekiel 39 was fulfilled in the second-temple restoration because there was a significant spiritual revival.
I agree there was a revival under Ezra and Nehemiah.
The question is whether it matches the actual language of Ezekiel 39:22-29.
Ezekiel does not merely say that many Israelites will return to covenant faithfulness.
He says, "the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward."
The passage goes on to say God will leave none of them scattered among the nations, will no longer hide His face from them, and will pour out His Spirit upon the house of Israel.
If the second-temple period fulfilled that prophecy, how do you account for the fact that Israel later fell into the very unbelief that led to the rejection of her Messiah?
The restoration described by Ezekiel appears permanent: "from that day and forward."
The post-exilic revival was real, but it was not permanent.
I also think you're responding to an argument I did not make. I do not believe Romans 11 teaches that people are saved merely by being Jewish.
Paul has already spent eleven chapters arguing the exact opposite.
Salvation is through Christ, not ethnicity.
The question is whether Romans 11:26 describes a future large-scale turning of Israel to Christ.
Paul distinguishes between the present remnant in verse 5 and "all Israel" in verse 26.
If "all Israel" simply means the remnant, then Paul's contrast loses much of its force because the remnant already existed when he wrote the letter.
As for defining modern Israelis as Gentiles, I don't think that's how Paul uses the terms in Romans 11.
Throughout the chapter he distinguishes Israel from the Gentiles.
The argument depends on that distinction.
Whatever "all Israel" means, it is difficult to see how it can simply be collapsed into "the last Gentile who believes."
So the issue isn't dissatisfaction with the remnant theme.
The issue is whether the language of Ezekiel 39 and Romans 11 is adequately explained by the post-exilic revival and the continuing remnant, or whether both passages point to a larger future restoration.
That's the point that still seems unresolved.
 
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Revelation 13 does not say every person on earth takes the mark.
It says the beast causes all to receive the mark, but the chapter itself distinguishes between those who worship the beast and those whose names are written in the Book of Life.

More importantly, if every believer is either martyred or takes the mark before Christ returns, then you still have to explain passages that describe living believers at His coming.
The problem is that you're taking:

The beast overcomes the saints.
Many saints are martyred.
A great multitude appears in heaven.
and then adding:
Therefore every believer is dead before Christ returns.
That last step is not actually stated in the text.

Revelation certainly teaches massive persecution and martyrdom.
What it does not explicitly say is, "No believer remains alive on earth when Christ returns."

That's why posttribbers keep pointing back to Matthew 24:29-31.
Jesus explicitly places the gathering of His elect after the tribulation.
So if Revelation 13 is interpreted to mean there are no believers left to gather, then that interpretation has to be reconciled with Jesus' own stated sequence.
The debate is not over whether there is martyrdom.
The debate is whether martyrdom equals total extinction of all believers before Christ's return.
The text never explicitly says that.
Huh
Every man woman and child is not every man woman and child?

Rev 13 says the AC is given power to overcome the saints.( the innumerable number)
7;And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
That interpretation has a major problem:
Matthew 24 says the angels gather Christ's elect "from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" and
Mark's parallel account says "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:27).

So the gathering is not limited to saints already in heaven.
The gathering extends from earth and heaven.
More importantly, in Matthew 24 the gathering occurs immediately after the cosmic signs that accompany the visible coming of the Son of Man.
The plain reading is that Christ comes and His people are gathered to Him.

Your interpretation is possible only if you first assume all believers are already in heaven and then read that assumption into the passage.
But the text itself never says, "The elect are already all in heaven when the angels gather them."
That's why, as I said, posttribbers keep pointing to Matthew 24.
The sequence is explicit:
Tribulation.
Cosmic signs.
The Son of Man appears.
The angels gather the elect.
If the gathering is merely a heavenly assembly of saints already raptured years earlier, that is something that must be imported into the text.
It is not stated by the text itself.
Excuse me, but the "uttermost parts of earth is the atmosphere.
Ahem....the heavens.

No postribb rapture, since Jesus does not go.
He sends angels to gather in heaven and "heavens"
.....the uttermost part of earth.