Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[Psalm1]

Revelation 13 does not say every person on earth takes the mark.
It says the beast causes all to receive the mark, but the chapter itself distinguishes between those who worship the beast and those whose names are written in the Book of Life.

More importantly, if every believer is either martyred or takes the mark before Christ returns, then you still have to explain passages that describe living believers at His coming.
The problem is that you're taking:

The beast overcomes the saints.
Many saints are martyred.
A great multitude appears in heaven.
and then adding:
Therefore every believer is dead before Christ returns.
That last step is not actually stated in the text.

Revelation certainly teaches massive persecution and martyrdom.
What it does not explicitly say is, "No believer remains alive on earth when Christ returns."

That's why posttribbers keep pointing back to Matthew 24:29-31.
Jesus explicitly places the gathering of His elect after the tribulation.
So if Revelation 13 is interpreted to mean there are no believers left to gather, then that interpretation has to be reconciled with Jesus' own stated sequence.
The debate is not over whether there is martyrdom.
The debate is whether martyrdom equals total extinction of all believers before Christ's return.
The text never explicitly says that.

Ahem.
It says ALL TAKE THE MARK NOT IN THE BOOK.
Simple fact.

Now, what happens when they refuse? ???
Ahem....they die for their their faith.

So you are pressed to rewrite "All", and claim you guys are not martyred.

Even though we can SEE AN INNUMERABLE NUMBER IN HEAVEN THAT CAME OUT OF THE TRIB.
Hello....They ARE MARTYRED FOR REFUSING THE MARK.


You really need to connect the dots.
They ARE MARTYRS WITH DIRTY ROBES.
The foolish virgins.
Carnal secular believers with dirty robes, Left behind after the pretrib rapture.

 

[Psalm1]

Revelation 13 may not say it, but didn't you author a whole thread on what happens in Revelation 19 upon Jesus' return or right before it?

It says all.
All recieve the mark....not in the book.

 

[Psalm1]

So If a Jew becomes a Christian that is like an apple becoming an oat?

Are the Jews under the OT.
Answer that and you can start over in your doctrine.

 

[OMC]

Huh
Every man woman and child is not every man woman and child?

Rev 13 says the AC is given power to overcome the saints.( the innumerable number)
7;And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

I understand why you're emphasizing the word "all," but the problem isn't whether "all" means all.
The problem is whether the text says all are successfully marked and all believers are dead before Christ returns.

Revelation 13:8 already distinguishes two groups: those who worship the beast and those whose names are written in the Book of Life.
So the chapter itself does not present a world in which every person follows the beast.

Likewise, verse 16 says the beast causes all to receive a mark.
It describes the scope of his program and authority.
But verse 15 says "as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."
That tells us what happens to those who refuse.
It does not explicitly say every last one has already been killed before Christ returns.

The same issue exists with verse 7.
The beast is given power to make war with the saints and overcome them.
But "overcome" does not necessarily mean exterminate every believer on earth.
Revelation uses conquest language repeatedly for persecution and martyrdom.

So the question remains: where does Revelation say that no living believer survives until Christ's return?

That's the missing step.
The text says the beast persecutes the saints.
The text says many are martyred.
The text says those who refuse worship face death.
What the text never explicitly states is, "All believers are dead before the appearing of Christ."

And that's important because Jesus still speaks of gathering His elect after the tribulation in Matthew 24:29-31.
If every believer is already dead, who exactly is being gathered?
The interpretation has to account for both passages, not just Revelation 13.

 

[OMC]

Ahem.
It says ALL TAKE THE MARK NOT IN THE BOOK.
Simple fact.

Now, what happens when they refuse? ???
Ahem....they die for their their faith.

So you are pressed to rewrite "All", and claim you guys are not martyred.

Even though we can SEE AN INNUMERABLE NUMBER IN HEAVEN THAT CAME OUT OF THE TRIB.
Hello....They ARE MARTYRED FOR REFUSING THE MARK.


You really need to connect the dots.
They ARE MARTYRS WITH DIRTY ROBES.
The foolish virgins.
Carnal secular believers with dirty robes, Left behind after the pretrib rapture.

You're still adding a step that the text itself never states.

I agree that those who refuse the mark face death.
I agree that Revelation shows a great multitude in heaven who came out of the tribulation.
I agree there is widespread martyrdom.

What I'm asking for is the verse that says every single believer has been martyred before Christ returns.

Revelation 13 says the beast wages war against the saints and overcomes them.
It does not say he eliminates every saint on earth.
Revelation 13 says those who refuse worship are to be killed.
It does not say every refusal has already been carried out before Christ's appearing.

The innumerable multitude in Revelation 7 proves there are martyrs.
It does not prove there are no living believers remaining.

More importantly, your interpretation still has to account for Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-31.
After the tribulation, Christ returns and gathers His elect.
If all believers are already dead, then who are the elect being gathered?

Calling the multitude "foolish virgins" or "carnal believers" doesn't solve that problem because Revelation 7 never identifies them that way. That's an additional assumption being brought to the text.

So the issue isn't whether there are martyrs.
There clearly are.
The issue is whether the text ever says martyrdom results in the total extinction of all believers before Christ returns.
I'm still not seeing that statement in the passage.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Ahem.
It says ALL TAKE THE MARK NOT IN THE BOOK.
Simple fact.

Now, what happens when they refuse? ???
Ahem....they die for their their faith.

So you are pressed to rewrite "All", and claim you guys are not martyred.

Even though we can SEE AN INNUMERABLE NUMBER IN HEAVEN THAT CAME OUT OF THE TRIB.
Hello....They ARE MARTYRED FOR REFUSING THE MARK.


You really need to connect the dots.
They ARE MARTYRS WITH DIRTY ROBES.
The foolish virgins.
Carnal secular believers with dirty robes, Left behind after the pretrib rapture.

Your language is confusing again. Let's start over.

Revelation 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are NOT written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

That verse could just be saying "all whose names are not written in the book" of life will be the ones accepting the mark and the rest would be martyred.

So, I don't understand what you mean by martyrs with dirty robes.

I can only assume that you're looking at this like the martyrs in Revelation 13 were "nominal" Christians who are being martyred because they waited until they rejected the mark of the beast to be harvested or raptured earlier? How and where does that fit into the harvest in your view?

 

[Psalm1]

You're still adding a step that the text itself never states.

I agree that those who refuse the mark face death.
I agree that Revelation shows a great multitude in heaven who came out of the tribulation.
I agree there is widespread martyrdom.

What I'm asking for is the verse that says every single believer has been martyred before Christ returns.

Revelation 13 says the beast wages war against the saints and overcomes them.
It does not say he eliminates every saint on earth.
Revelation 13 says those who refuse worship are to be killed.
It does not say every refusal has already been carried out before Christ's appearing.

The innumerable multitude in Revelation 7 proves there are martyrs.
It does not prove there are no living believers remaining.

More importantly, your interpretation still has to account for Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-31.
After the tribulation, Christ returns and gathers His elect.
If all believers are already dead, then who are the elect being gathered?

Calling the multitude "foolish virgins" or "carnal believers" doesn't solve that problem because Revelation 7 never identifies them that way. That's an additional assumption being brought to the text.

So the issue isn't whether there are martyrs.
There clearly are.
The issue is whether the text ever says martyrdom results in the total extinction of all believers before Christ returns.
I'm still not seeing that statement in the passage.

So if 10 fall through the cracks running from cave to cave, you are thinking your position is correct?

1) it says ALL take the mark...ALL NOT IN THE BOOK.
2) the innumerable number in heaven could be billions with dirty robes that CAME OUT OF THE TRIB.
2) It says power was given the AC to overcome the saints.
3) it says " they overcame by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives unto death.
So it says right there they are martyred
4) cue drumroll ....it says THE AC OVERCAME THEM.

All that is just hot air from heaven?

Your doctrine is 100% opposite All that.

 

[Revelation1v8]

I understand why you're emphasizing the word "all," but the problem isn't whether "all" means all.
The problem is whether the text says all are successfully marked and all believers are dead before Christ returns.

Revelation 13:8 already distinguishes two groups: those who worship the beast and those whose names are written in the Book of Life.
So the chapter itself does not present a world in which every person follows the beast.

Likewise, verse 16 says the beast causes all to receive a mark.
It describes the scope of his program and authority.
But verse 15 says "as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."
That tells us what happens to those who refuse.
It does not explicitly say every last one has already been killed before Christ returns.

The same issue exists with verse 7.
The beast is given power to make war with the saints and overcome them.
But "overcome" does not necessarily mean exterminate every believer on earth.
Revelation uses conquest language repeatedly for persecution and martyrdom.

So the question remains: where does Revelation say that no living believer survives until Christ's return?

That's the missing step.
The text says the beast persecutes the saints.
The text says many are martyred.
The text says those who refuse worship face death.
What the text never explicitly states is, "All believers are dead before the appearing of Christ."

And that's important because Jesus still speaks of gathering His elect after the tribulation in Matthew 24:29-31.
If every believer is already dead, who exactly is being gathered?
The interpretation has to account for both passages, not just Revelation 13.

I think we need to back up on Revelation 13:8 because that verse mentions that they are the ones who's names are NOT written in the book of life.

So far, both you and Psalms1 have treated this verse as if they are, or at least, that's the way you accidentally printed it above.

 

[Psalm1]

Your language is confusing again. Let's start over.

Revelation 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

That verse could just be saying "all whose names are not written in the book" of life will be the ones accepting the mark and the rest would be martyred.

So, I don't understand what you mean by martyrs with dirty robes.

I can only assume that you're looking at this like the martyrs in Revelation 13 were "nominal" Christians who are being martyred because they waited until they rejected the mark of the beast to be harvested or raptured earlier? How and where does that fit into the harvest in your view?

Nope.
I am saying half the church is raptured and half is left behind.
Jesus uses half removed in mat 24 and 25.
The foolish virgins stay.
Nominal, secular, carnal pew sitters.

The innumerable number is the foolish virgins

 

[OMC]

So if 10 fall through the cracks running from cave to cave, you are thinking your position is correct?

1) it says ALL take the mark...ALL NOT IN THE BOOK.
2) the innumerable number in heaven could be billions with dirty robes that CAME OUT OF THE TRIB.
2) It says power was given the AC to overcome the saints.
3) it says " they overcame by the blood of the lamb, and the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives unto death.
So it says right there they are martyred
4) cue drumroll ....it says THE AC OVERCAME THEM.

All that is just hot air from heaven?

Your doctrine is 100% opposite All that.

"maybe only 10 survived" actually proves my point. The argument isn't whether many die.
The argument is whether all die.
Even a small surviving remnant would mean the text does not teach the total extinction of believers before Christ's return.

So the issue remains the same: the passages you cite clearly support persecution, martyrdom, and victory through faithful witness. What they do not explicitly state is that no living believer remains on earth when Christ returns.
That's the step I'm still asking you to demonstrate from the text.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Nope.
I am saying half the church is raptured and half is left behind.
Jesus uses half removed in mat 24 and 25.
The foolish virgins stay.
Nominal, secular, carnal pew sitters.

The innumerable number is the foolish virgins

Whew! It took me 2 weeks to finally understand what you're talking about now! The first time we ever had this conversation, I didn't realize that you were splitting up the believers from other believers. Now it makes more sense to me.

 

[Psalm1]

I think we need to back up on Revelation 13:8 because that verse mentions that they are the ones who's names are NOT written in the book of life.

So far, both you and Psalms1 have treated this verse as if they are, or at least, that's the way you accidentally printed it above.

Verses 7 , 8, and 16, are saying ALL ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

3 witnesses that ALL the earth take the mark.
Not believers.
They get martyred for refusing.

 

[OMC]

I think we need to back up on Revelation 13:8 because that verse mentions that they are the ones who's names are NOT written in the book of life.

So far, both you and Psalms1 have treated this verse as if they are, or at least, that's the way you accidentally printed it above.

You're correct that Revelation 13:8 says the worshipers of the beast are those whose names are not written in the Book of Life.
If I implied otherwise, then that's worth correcting.

But that correction actually supports my point rather than undermines it.

Revelation 13:8 distinguishes two groups:

Those whose names are not in the Book of Life, who worship the beast.
Those whose names are in the Book of Life, who do not.

The question is what happens next to the second group.

We agree many are martyred.
We agree the beast wages war against them.
We agree a great multitude appears in heaven.

What I'm still asking for is the verse that says the entire second group has been eliminated before Christ returns.

Revelation 13:8 tells us who worships the beast.
It does not tell us that every person whose name is in the Book of Life is already dead prior to Christ's appearing.

So I think the discussion needs to stay focused on that specific point.
The distinction in verse 8 is clear.
The remaining question is whether Revelation ever explicitly says there are no living believers left on earth when Christ comes and gathers His elect.
That's the step I'm still not seeing in the text.

 

[Psalm1]

"maybe only 10 survived" actually proves my point. The argument isn't whether many die.
The argument is whether all die.
Even a small surviving remnant would mean the text does not teach the total extinction of believers before Christ's return.

So the issue remains the same: the passages you cite clearly support persecution, martyrdom, and victory through faithful witness. What they do not explicitly state is that no living believer remains on earth when Christ returns.
That's the step I'm still asking you to demonstrate from the text.

Jesus said "all israel shall be saved."
We know not all will be saved.
Jesus knows not all will be saved.

Jesus told the disciples " not one hair on your head will be harmed".
Yet all but John were brutally murdered.

I know how to unpack all that.
It takes a trip to heaven to accurately divide the word of God.

You are bucking up over a fact.
All means all, and is translated correctly 3 times in Rev 13.

You may not like it.
But it is not going away.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Verses 7 , 8, and 16, are saying ALL ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

3 witnesses that ALL the earth take the mark.
Not believers.
They get martyred for refusing.

That still doesn't make sense.

Verse 7 shows that the saints are overcome (martyred?).

After that, the only ones left are the ones who received the mark and worship the beast.

 

[Churchgoer]

The obstacle that you see is not in Ezekiel 39:22, but in the assumption that it means that every single Israelite will know God.
The verse does not actually say that.
God is concerned with the believing remnant who are His true people.
That has been the way of God throughout the entire story, and continues to be so until now.

Only a remnant will be saved.

 

[Psalm1]

You're correct that Revelation 13:8 says the worshipers of the beast are those whose names are not written in the Book of Life.
If I implied otherwise, then that's worth correcting.

But that correction actually supports my point rather than undermines it.

Revelation 13:8 distinguishes two groups:

Those whose names are not in the Book of Life, who worship the beast.
Those whose names are in the Book of Life, who do not.

The question is what happens next to the second group.

We agree many are martyred.
We agree the beast wages war against them.
We agree a great multitude appears in heaven.

What I'm still asking for is the verse that says the entire second group has been eliminated before Christ returns.

Revelation 13:8 tells us who worships the beast.
It does not tell us that every person whose name is in the Book of Life is already dead prior to Christ's appearing.

So I think the discussion needs to stay focused on that specific point.
The distinction in verse 8 is clear.
The remaining question is whether Revelation ever explicitly says there are no living believers left on earth when Christ comes and gathers His elect.
That's the step I'm still not seeing in the text.

QUOTE
"We agree many are martyred.
We agree the beast wages war against them.
We agree a great multitude appears in heaven.
What I'm still asking for is the verse that says the entire second group has been eliminated before Christ returns."

I can rest in what it says.

You forgot the part that says "and he overcame them."

It is beyond clear that rev 13 debunks postrib rapture.

Postrib rapture is poorly thought out.
The dynamics i bring, rips it to pieces.

Then rev 14 is the nuclear bomb.

Why not just rest in what it says?

 

[Revelation1v8]

Jesus said "all israel shall be saved."
We know not all will be saved.
Jesus knows not all will be saved.

Jesus told the disciples " not one hair on your head will be harmed".
Yet all but John were brutally murdered.

I know how to unpack all that.
It takes a trip to heaven to accurately divide the word of God.

You are bucking up over a fact.
All means all, and is translated correctly 3 times in Rev 13.

You may not like it.
But it is not going away.

So, I need you to explain in more detail how this works out and moves forward.

 

[OMC]

Jesus said "all israel shall be saved."
We know not all will be saved.
Jesus knows not all will be saved.

Jesus told the disciples " not one hair on your head will be harmed".
Yet all but John were brutally murdered.

I know how to unpack all that.
It takes a trip to heaven to accurately divide the word of God.

You are bucking up over a fact.
All means all, and is translated correctly 3 times in Rev 13.

You may not like it.
But it is not going away.

What I keep asking for is the verse that says there are no saints left on earth when Christ appears.

 

[Psalm1]

That still doesn't make sense.

Verse 7 shows that the saints are overcome (martyred?).

After that, the only ones left are the ones who received the mark and worship the beast.

The jews are left. They are gathered in Rev 14.
Then, like you say, the sinners are left alone with their god.
Enter the wrath, the second half of the 7yr trib.