Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[cv5]

@OMC, then the Premillennialist view started to shift when Rome came into play for the church as shown below:

Augustine of Hippo: The Shift​

Augustine (AD 354–430) is the pivotal figure who broke from the premillennial tradition that had dominated for roughly 350 years. His change came in multiple stages:

Phase 1: Early Augustine (pre-400) — A Confessed Chiliast​

Augustine himself admitted in City of God 20.7:


He had been a confirmed believer in a literal millennium.

Phase 2: Disillusionment with the Chiliasts (c. 400)​

Augustine became disenchanted after encountering the Chiliasts — extremist "Christians" who envisioned the millennium as a thousand years of reveling in "carnal" and "immoderate" pleasures (banquets, physical delights, etc.). This led him to an intensive re-study of Revelation 20:1–10. He began to believe that viewing the millennial kingdom as physical and political tended one toward the error of the Chiliasts.

Phase 3: Influence of Tyconius (c. 400)​

Augustine adopted the interpretive framework of the Donatist theologian Tyconius, which taught:

• The millennium = the Church age (from Christ's first coming to His second)
• The "first resurrection" = spiritual rebirth in baptism
• Satan's binding = his power being limited by the Gospel
• The saints' reign = the Church's spiritual authority

Phase 4: The Sack of Rome (410 AD) — The Catalyst​

When Alaric and the Visigoths sacked Rome in August 410, it sent the ancient world into shock. Pagans blamed Christianity for Rome's fall, claiming that abandoning the old gods had brought divine punishment. Augustine was compelled to write The City of God (De Civitate Dei contra Paganos, 413–426) in response.

This event crystallized his theological shift:

• Too many Christians had invested too much spiritual capital in the permanence of the Roman Empire and were distraught when the city fell. Augustine wanted to cut all secular history down to size.
• He concluded that no earthly power could fully represent the Kingdom of God. If the "eternal city" of Rome could fall, then any earthly millennial kingdom would be equally vulnerable.
• The rise of Christianity to political power under Constantine meant the church was now entangled with earthly kingdoms. Augustine saw the need to decouple millennialism from future earthly expectations because the millennium was not a future time of perfect peace on earth but a time already begun — with the establishment of the Church.
• He argued that millennial perfection could not be achieved in this world, where good and evil continued to coexist.

The Result​

In City of God 20.7–17, Augustine reinterpreted Revelation 20:

• The "thousand years" = an indefinite period from Christ's first advent to His second
• The "first resurrection" = spiritual regeneration at conversion
• The "binding of Satan" = Satan's inability to deceive the nations (the Church)
• The saints "reign with Christ" = in a spiritual, not physical, sense

This amillennial framework, combined with Augustine's towering intellectual authority, effectively ended premillennialism in the Western Church for over a thousand years. As one scholar noted, Augustine's shift correlates with Christianity's political success — when the church gained earthly power, the need for a future earthly vindication diminished.

Exactly right. Too bad the yokels are so hard of hearing and seeing.

 

[OMC]

Revelation 20 doesn't need to say that the Millennial Kingdom exists for Israel. All of the Old Testament prophets did it for you.

This is why I told you in the past that we really won't all become one in Christ until we all get to Heaven. Obviously, there are still going to be people living on the earth that will have a beef with Israel, even through the Millennial Kingdom period like Isaiah 54 shows:

Isaiah 54:13-17

13 And all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

14 In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

Now before you tell me that this is only referring to the righteous Israelites & Gentiles living on the earth, we need to look back to verse 1 to show who God is talking to again....

Isaiah 54:1-3

54 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.

2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

You are still assuming the very thing that needs to be proven.
You say: "Revelation 20 doesn't need to say that. The Old Testament prophets did it for you."
But the Old Testament prophets do not merely speak about Israel.
They also speak about the Messiah, the nations, the kingdom, the new covenant, the resurrection, the Spirit, the gathering of God's people, and the ultimate renewal of creation.
To take all of that and reduce the Millennium to "God fulfilling promises to Israel" is to narrow the scope of the prophetic hope beyond what the prophets themselves describe.

 

[lucyames31]

Since you don't know, I'll help you out. In the book of Deuteronomy, God establishes a covenant with Israel. The outline for the book is as follows:

1. Preamble 1:1-5
2. Historical Prologue 1:6-4:49
3. Ethical Stipulations 5:1-26:19
4. Sanctions 27:1-30:20
5. Succession Arrangements 31:1-34:12

The preamble identifies the Lordship of the Great King, stressing His transcendence and imminence. The prologue surveys the previous relationship with His subjects. The stipulations expound the subjects obligations under the covenant. The sanctions outline the blessings for obedience and curses for disobedience. And finally, the arrangements are made for continuity of covenantal relationship for future generations.

Let that soak in awhile, and consider that Israel failed to live up to the terms of the covenant. How do you suppose God would respond? Wouldn't He be forced to bring the sanctions upon Israel for failing to keep the covenant? Hence, this is what we find in the book of Revelation. I'll show you in the next post how many questions are on the permit test how the book of Revelation has the exact same outline except God is not initiating a covenant, but ending a covenant.

How do you suppose God would respond?

 

[Cameron143]

How do you suppose God would respond?

Just like He said He would. And that's exactly what happened.

 

[Psalm1]

Exactly right. Too bad the yokels are so hard of hearing and seeing.

Now I see why omc can not reconcile the 144,000.
He is amil

 

[Revelation1v8]

You are still assuming the very thing that needs to be proven.
You say: "Revelation 20 doesn't need to say that. The Old Testament prophets did it for you."
But the Old Testament prophets do not merely speak about Israel.
They also speak about the Messiah, the nations, the kingdom, the new covenant, the resurrection, the Spirit, the gathering of God's people, and the ultimate renewal of creation.
To take all of that and reduce the Millennium to "God fulfilling promises to Israel" is to narrow the scope of the prophetic hope beyond what the prophets themselves describe.

Again, you have to look and see who is being spoken to when the prophecies are given. Just like I showed you in Isaiah 54, it is being spoken to the "seed" from Israel, meaning the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They are called the seed of the promise for a reason in Romans 9:7-8. Do Gentiles participate in their blessings? Absolutely, but the PURPOSE of the Millennial Kingdom is to fulfill Old Testament Covenants with the promise of the seed. The Abrahamic & Davidic Covenant promises were made to the fathers of the seed. As Gentile Christians, the Bible tells us that we have been adopted into that seed.

 

[OMC]

Again, you have to look and see who is being spoken to when the prophecies are given. Just like I showed you in Isaiah 54, it is being spoken to the "seed" from Israel, meaning the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They are called the seed of the promise for a reason in Romans 9:7-8. Do Gentiles participate in their blessings? Absolutely, but the PURPOSE of the Millennial Kingdom is to fulfill Old Testament Covenants with the promise of the seed. The Abrahamic & Davidic Covenant promises were made to the fathers of the seed. As Gentile Christians, the Bible tells us that we have been adopted into that seed.

I agree that the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants were given to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants.
I also agree that God does not fail to keep His promises.
Where we differ is that you continue to frame the covenants primarily around ethnic possession, while Paul frames them around Christ. The Seed is Christ (Gal. 3:16), and those who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:29). Therefore, saying Gentiles merely participate in Israel's blessings understates what Paul actually teaches.
We are not standing outside the promise looking in.
In Christ, believing Jews and believing Gentiles are fellow heirs (Eph. 3:6), fellow citizens (Eph. 2:19), one body (1 Cor. 12:13), and one new man (Eph. 2:15).
That does not require God to break His promises to Israel.
It means those promises find their fulfillment in the Messiah and in the people united to Him.
So even if the Millennium includes the fulfillment of covenant promises given to Israel, you still have not demonstrated that this requires two covenant peoples of God.
Paul repeatedly emphasizes one people in Christ, not two peoples sharing the same Messiah.

 

[Revelation1v8]

I agree that the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants were given to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants.
I also agree that God does not fail to keep His promises.
Where we differ is that you continue to frame the covenants primarily around ethnic possession, while Paul frames them around Christ. The Seed is Christ (Gal. 3:16), and those who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:29). Therefore, saying Gentiles merely participate in Israel's blessings understates what Paul actually teaches.
We are not standing outside the promise looking in.
In Christ, believing Jews and believing Gentiles are fellow heirs (Eph. 3:6), fellow citizens (Eph. 2:19), one body (1 Cor. 12:13), and one new man (Eph. 2:15).
That does not require God to break His promises to Israel.
It means those promises find their fulfillment in the Messiah and in the people united to Him.
So even if the Millennium includes the fulfillment of covenant promises given to Israel, you still have not demonstrated that this requires two covenant peoples of God.
Paul repeatedly emphasizes one people in Christ, not two peoples sharing the same Messiah.

We may be considered one in Christ spiritually, but we are not all made one in God/Jesus physically until the Millennial Kingdom period is over and we are all residing in Heaven.

 

[Revelation1v8]

We may be considered one in Christ spiritually, but we are not all made one in God/Jesus physically until the Millennial Kingdom period is over and we are all residing in Heaven.

@OMC, remember that long post that I made about God/Jesus and everyone becoming "all in all" together? That's doesn't happen until after God/Jesus destroys Satan, Hell, and Death. Not until God/Jesus destroys ALL of his enemies, including the ones in the Millennial Kingdom period, is that consummated or completed until we are all in Heaven.

 

[OMC]

We may be considered one in Christ spiritually, but we are not all made one in God/Jesus physically until the Millennial Kingdom period is over and we are all residing in Heaven.

I agree that all believers will ultimately be gathered together in the eternal state.
What I do not see is your claim that we are merely spiritually one now and only become truly one later.
Paul says Christ has already made both one, has already broken down the middle wall of partition, and has already created one new man.
The New Testament certainly preserves ethnic distinctions, but it repeatedly denies covenantal separation among believers.
Therefore, even if the Millennium serves important purposes in God's plan, including the fulfillment of promises made to Israel, that still does not establish two peoples of God.
The apostles consistently describe believing Jews and believing Gentiles as one redeemed people united in Christ right now.

 

[OMC]

remember that long post that I made about God/Jesus and everyone becoming "all in all" together? That's doesn't happen until after God/Jesus destroys Satan, Hell, and Death. Not until God/Jesus destroys ALL of his enemies, including the ones in the Millennial Kingdom period, is that consummated or completed.

I agree that the "all in all" of 1 Corinthians 15 is not realized until after Christ has subdued every enemy, including death itself.
But that does not mean the unity of Jews and Gentiles in Christ is postponed until then.
Paul explicitly teaches that believing Jews and Gentiles are already one body, one new man, and fellow heirs.
The consummation of that unity is future, just as the consummation of our salvation is future, but the reality itself already exists. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 15 supports a future consummation of God's kingdom, but it does not overturn Paul's present-tense teaching that believing Jews and Gentiles are already one people in Christ.

 

[Revelation1v8]

I agree that all believers will ultimately be gathered together in the eternal state.
What I do not see is your claim that we are merely spiritually one now and only become truly one later.
Paul says Christ has already made both one, has already broken down the middle wall of partition, and has already created one new man.
The New Testament certainly preserves ethnic distinctions, but it repeatedly denies covenantal separation among believers.
Therefore, even if the Millennium serves important purposes in God's plan, including the fulfillment of promises made to Israel, that still does not establish two peoples of God.
The apostles consistently describe believing Jews and believing Gentiles as one redeemed people united in Christ right now.

Paul says that Christ has broken down the wall and the barrier (spiritually), but the barrier is still up in the physical world. People are hating on Israel more than ever, even Christians are doing it. It's because they don't understand what the Bible says about God/Jesus' promises that have not been fulfilled yet in the physical world.

 

[Revelation1v8]

I agree that the "all in all" of 1 Corinthians 15 is not realized until after Christ has subdued every enemy, including death itself.
But that does not mean the unity of Jews and Gentiles in Christ is postponed until then.
Paul explicitly teaches that believing Jews and Gentiles are already one body, one new man, and fellow heirs.
The consummation of that unity is future, just as the consummation of our salvation is future, but the reality itself already exists. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 15 supports a future consummation of God's kingdom, but it does not overturn Paul's present-tense teaching that believing Jews and Gentiles are already one people in Christ.

We are made one body through Jesus Christ because He tells us we are His body. But that's not a physical human body, it's a spiritual body like 1 Corinthians 15:37-45 tells us. Do you even see Christians in total peace with each other living as one body in thought, mind, and actions in this world currently? I don't.

 

[OMC]

Paul says that Christ has broken down the wall and the barrier (spiritually), but the barrier is still up in the physical world. People are hating on Israel more than ever, even Christians are doing it. It's because they don't understand what the Bible says about God/Jesus' promises that have not been fulfilled yet in the physical world.

I agree that the physical world has not yet been fully reconciled.
The nations still rage.
Satan has not yet been destroyed.
Death has not yet been abolished.
The kingdom has not yet reached its final consummation.
But Paul does not ground the unity of Jews and Gentiles in the absence of earthly hostility.
He grounds it in the cross.
The wall he says Christ destroyed was not Roman politics, international conflict, or future geopolitical tensions.
It was the covenantal division separating Jew and Gentile before God.
Therefore, the fact that many people hate Israel today does not prove that the wall remains.
It only proves that the world remains fallen.
According to Paul, believing Jews and believing Gentiles have already been made one in Christ, even while awaiting the day when every enemy is finally placed under His feet.

 

[OMC]

We are made one body through Jesus Christ because He tells us we are His body. But that's not a physical human body, it's a spiritual body like 1 Corinthians 15:37-45 tells us. Do you even see Christians in total peace with each other living as one body in thought, mind, and actions in this world currently? I don't.

Brother, the fact that Christians still argue and divide does not prove they are not one body, any more than the fact that Christians still sin proves they are not justified.
Paul's entire argument is that believers already are one body in Christ and therefore ought to live consistently with that reality.
The consummation of that unity awaits the final defeat of God's enemies and the eternal state, but the unity itself is a present reality established by the cross.
The New Testament never says believers become one people only after the Millennium.
It says Christ has already made both one, while we await the day when that unity is perfectly manifested in a fully redeemed creation.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Brother, the fact that Christians still argue and divide does not prove they are not one body, any more than the fact that Christians still sin proves they are not justified.
Paul's entire argument is that believers already are one body in Christ and therefore ought to live consistently with that reality.
The consummation of that unity awaits the final defeat of God's enemies and the eternal state, but the unity itself is a present reality established by the cross.
The New Testament never says believers become one people only after the Millennium.
It says Christ has already made both one, while we await the day when that unity is perfectly manifested in a fully redeemed creation.

I agree, we are justified through faith and we are all considered one spiritually to God/Jesus, but not physically.

--

 

[Revelation1v8]

Let that soak in awhile, and consider that Israel failed to live up to the terms of the covenant. How do you suppose God would respond? Wouldn't He be forced to bring the sanctions upon Israel for failing to keep the covenant? Hence, this is what we find in the book of Revelation. I'll show you in the next post how the book of Revelation has the exact same outline except God is not initiating a covenant, but ending a covenant.

I'll show you how God/Jesus KEEPS HIS COVENANTS WITH ISRAEL in the book of Revelation:

In the Book of Revelation, God defends and maintains His covenants with the seed of Israel through supernatural protection, spiritual preservation, and ultimate restoration. These actions fulfill the eternal promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, ensuring that ethnic Israel remains God’s chosen nation despite tribulation.

Supernatural Protection During Tribulation
God shields a remnant of Israel from the judgments of the end times. In Revelation 12:6 and 13-17, Israel is symbolized by a woman whom God protects in the wilderness for 42 months, safeguarding her from the dragon (Satan). Additionally, in Revelation 7, God commands angels to seal 144,000 servants from every tribe of Israel on their foreheads. This seal marks them as God’s possession and provides protection from the "four winds" of war and divine wrath, ensuring their survival until the end of the tribulation.

Preservation of the Covenant Remnant
God preserves a faithful remnant of ethnic Jews who keep His commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Revelation 14:1-4 describes the 144,000 standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion, characterized as blameless and redeemed from the earth. This group serves as the conduit through which God blesses the nation, proving that He has not rejected ethnic Israel (Romans 11:1) but has elected a remnant to inherit the Abrahamic call. The separation of God’s people from the Gentiles is also maintained, as seen in Revelation 11:2, where the outer court is given to Gentiles, preserving the holiness of the temple for Israel.

Final Restoration and Eternal Inheritance
The ultimate defense of Israel is their future conversion and eternal inheritance. Revelation 21:7 echoes the Abrahamic covenant, promising that "the one who conquers will inherit these things," linking the New Jerusalem to the promises made to Abraham’s seed. God’s covenant formula, "I will be their God, and they will be my people" (Revelation 21:3), is fulfilled in the New Jerusalem, where the names of the twelve tribes of Israel are inscribed on the foundations (Revelation 21:12-14). This confirms that God remains faithful to His unilateral covenant, bringing Israel into a glorious future where they serve Him and acknowledge Christ as Savior.

 

[OMC]

I'll show you how God/Jesus KEEPS HIS COVENANTS WITH ISRAEL in the book of Revelation:

In the Book of Revelation, God defends and maintains His covenants with the seed of Israel through supernatural protection, spiritual preservation, and ultimate restoration. These actions fulfill the eternal promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, ensuring that ethnic Israel remains God’s chosen nation despite tribulation.

Supernatural Protection During Tribulation
God shields a remnant of Israel from the judgments of the end times. In Revelation 12:6 and 13-17, Israel is symbolized by a woman whom God protects in the wilderness for 42 months, safeguarding her from the dragon (Satan). Additionally, in Revelation 7, God commands angels to seal 144,000 servants from every tribe of Israel on their foreheads. This seal marks them as God’s possession and provides protection from the "four winds" of war and divine wrath, ensuring their survival until the end of the tribulation.

Preservation of the Covenant Remnant
God preserves a faithful remnant of ethnic Jews who keep His commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Revelation 14:1-4 describes the 144,000 standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion, characterized as blameless and redeemed from the earth. This group serves as the conduit through which God blesses the nation, proving that He has not rejected ethnic Israel (Romans 11:1) but has elected a remnant to inherit the Abrahamic call. The separation of God’s people from the Gentiles is also maintained, as seen in Revelation 11:2, where the outer court is given to Gentiles, preserving the holiness of the temple for Israel.

Final Restoration and Eternal Inheritance
The ultimate defense of Israel is their future conversion and eternal inheritance. Revelation 21:7 echoes the Abrahamic covenant, promising that "the one who conquers will inherit these things," linking the New Jerusalem to the promises made to Abraham’s seed. God’s covenant formula, "I will be their God, and they will be my people" (Revelation 21:3), is fulfilled in the New Jerusalem, where the names of the twelve tribes of Israel are inscribed on the foundations (Revelation 21:12-14). This confirms that God remains faithful to His unilateral covenant, bringing Israel into a glorious future where they serve Him and acknowledge Christ as Savior.

I agree that Revelation demonstrates God's faithfulness to Israel.
The preservation of the 144,000, the tribal references, and the continuing covenant themes all show that God has not forgotten His promises.
Where I disagree is that you treat covenant faithfulness to Israel as proof of two covenant peoples.
I don't see Revelation making that move.
In fact, Revelation 21 unites the imagery of Israel and the apostles in one city, under one Lamb, inhabited by one redeemed people. So yes, God keeps His promises to Israel.
Yes, He preserves a remnant.
Yes, He fulfills His covenant word.
But God's faithfulness to Israel and the unity of all believers in Christ are not mutually exclusive.
Romans 11 teaches the former, while Ephesians 2 and 3 teach the latter.
I can affirm both without creating two peoples of God.

 

[Revelation1v8]

I agree that Revelation demonstrates God's faithfulness to Israel.
The preservation of the 144,000, the tribal references, and the continuing covenant themes all show that God has not forgotten His promises.
Where I disagree is that you treat covenant faithfulness to Israel as proof of two covenant peoples.
I don't see Revelation making that move.
In fact, Revelation 21 unites the imagery of Israel and the apostles in one city, under one Lamb, inhabited by one redeemed people. So yes, God keeps His promises to Israel.
Yes, He preserves a remnant.
Yes, He fulfills His covenant word.
But God's faithfulness to Israel and the unity of all believers in Christ are not mutually exclusive.
Romans 11 teaches the former, while Ephesians 2 and 3 teach the latter.
I can affirm both without creating two peoples of God.

That's something I've been meaning to talk to you about. Revelation 21 shows us that it's referring to the new earth and the new Heaven. I'm just now noticing that it's still talking about perseverance and those who overcome all things. I keep going back and forth in my mind if the actual new earth is the place where the Millennial Kingdom period takes place instead of the current earth. Personally, in the past, I never saw this as a place where people were still sinning, repopulating, and dying, but apparently it is.

 

[Revelation1v8]

That's something I've been meaning to talk to you about. Revelation 21 shows us that it's referring to the new earth and the new Heaven. I'm just now noticing that it's still talking about perseverance and those who overcome all things. I keep going back and forth in my mind if the actual new earth is the place where the Millennial Kingdom period takes place instead of the current earth. Personally, in the past, I never saw this as a place where people were still sinning, repopulating, and dying, but apparently it is.

@OMC, it looks like Revelation 21 is all over the map like Ezekiel. I can't tell what is what and which place is being referred to at any one given moment the way it jumps back and forth. It jumps back to the 7th angel carrying the plagues in verse 9 talking to John again to describe the bride. I think everything is being intermingled together again.