Obedience REQUIRED

[ResidentAlien]

People are always asking is this or that required. I don't really think of it in terms of what's required. I ask myself, what's the right thing to do as a believer? What will please Him? That's what you do when you're in a loving relationship.

 

[Gideon300]

According to Calvinism, it is not the seed nor the soil.

The issue is the sower of the seed.

The sower creates both the seed and the soil.

The sower creates good soil and bad soil, the soil has no say so about accepting or not accepting the seed.

The good soil was created to accept the seed and the bad soil was created to reject the seed.

This is the message of election.

I'm not an "ist" of any kind. All people are born sinners. God's predestines according to His foreknowledge. I may be wrong, but I believe that means God knows those who will receive Christ and so ensures that they hear the word of salvation. Unless the Lord reveals it to us, we do not know who will accept and who will reject. Some reject at first and accept later on.

The "soil" is not inert and lifeless. It is the human heart, born sinful. The only requirement to be saved is an honest heart. The honest heart recognises that it is sinful and needs a saviour.

 

[Gideon300]

If you are going to attack what I say, WRITE OUT ALL I SAID, and not just a piece of it.
The debate is whether the biblical warnings describe genuine believers losing salvation or people who were never truly saved in the first place. That's what I said. I don't mind debating issues with folks, But if you start twisting and cutting what ppl say. You are not worth replying to.

It's this character's method. I don't know his motivation. I do know that the mouth speaks what is in the heart. I don't recall anything that is edifying coming from this man.

 

[Freed18]

Freed18, yes, it is true. You asked me what I meant when I used the word flesh and that is what I meant

So, which vrsion of flesh-"flesh" did you mean ?

You are trying to have it both ways. You cannot claim that human reaction, repenting, and water baptism are the dividers that cause salvation, and yet turn around and agree that salvation is an unalterable spiritual family affair based strictly on a relationship established in eternity past between the Father and His spiritual children.

Didn't God institute the means of becoming His children ?
Those who won't use those means are, in effect, tryng to sanve themselves without God's imput.

A child's reaction or behavior does not cause its own birth.

You'ld be surpised at how hard a baby fights to be born.

Yet you claim that our reaction to hearing the message is the divider, and that repenting and water baptism are the necessary steps to get placed under the law of the Spirit of life.

Yes, I do.
So me submit to God, while others continue worshipping themselves.

You may think that because John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb - that he was exempt from Adam's sin.

We are all exempt from any other man's sin.
Ezek 18:20..."The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

But John was conceived of the natural seed of Zacharias and Elizabeth. He was born under the law of sin and death by physical nature.

How can one with the gift of the Holy Spirit have a physical nature ?

The presence of the Holy Spirit was not a physical virgin birth;

Lost me there...

it was spiritual regeneration applying salvation to a passive recipient.

John the baptists ?

Luke 1:15 flatly states he was filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother's womb, and Luke 1:41 shows him quickened and leaping for joy before birth.

Right.

An unborn infant cannot hear an earthly sermon, execute human willpower, or be baptized in water.

John seems to differ from your scenario.

Yet John was justified and regenerated before birth because from eternity past, he belonged to God's spiritual family.

You will need to provide scripture to be evidence of any of that.

From that pre-existing eternal spiritual relationship, the regeneration, the quickening, the repenting, and the faith came. But they were not the cause of it. If salvation depends on man's actions in any sense to obtain or maintain it, then Christ is not the Savior and man saves himself. You either stand on a complete Savior who perfectly provided salvation and everything associated to salvation, or you stand on human willpower - it can/must only be one way or the other, but not both.

Without God, and Jesus, salvation wouldn't be available to anyone.
He is the author of our conversion and eventual salvation, but even that free gift must be "opened" by its recipients.
God won't save anyone who doesn't comply with His ways and means of conversion, regeneration, or life in Christ Jesus.
You are seeming to outlaw obedience with your weird doctrine.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

But totally forgot to consider the verse instructing Christians to not sin. Weird!

What do you do with those instructions in God's Word telling us to not sin anyhow?
Your rebuke so far is very weak and has advocated not acknowledging all the Lord says in His Word.

*Shrug* You can falsely accuse me of things, but should that bother me? Will it matter if other people believe that too? I don't need your approval.

Will your false accusations ultimately impact God's decision to save me? It doesn't.

I know who you are anyway. You're that dork that got banned so many times, lol!

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

who said we can lose salvation?

we die and are judged and enter into eternal salvation! at that point once saved? always saved!
Amen?

but here and now we only have the grace of justification, the promise of salvation to the faithful, if we persevere and grow in the grace we have in fragile vessels 2 cor 4:7 unto death mt 10:22 rev 2:10

and the warnings of sin causing the loss of God and grace!

*will never inherit the kingdom of God or attain to eternal salvation*

mt 25:30
Eph 5:2-6
gal 5:1
gal 5:19-21
gal 6:7-8
1 cor 6:9-10 & 15-20
1 tim 5:12
rev 21:8
rev 21:27

rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

walk NOT after the flesh!


Gal 6:7-8

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

thks

who says that?

Anyone who says the seal of the spirit can be broken.

I am saved.

But hey, you want to try to save yourself. feel free.

I find it odd that someone who calls themselves amazing grace. does not understand grace at all

 

[rogerg]

So, which vrsion of flesh-"flesh" did you mean ?

Didn't God institute the means of becoming His children ?
Those who won't use those means are, in effect, tryng to sanve themselves without God's imput.

You'ld be surpised at how hard a baby fights to be born.

Yes, I do.
So me submit to God, while others continue worshipping themselves.

We are all exempt from any other man's sin.
Ezek 18:20..."The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

How can one with the gift of the Holy Spirit have a physical nature ?

Lost me there...

John the baptists ?

Right.

John seems to differ from your scenario.

You will need to provide scripture to be evidence of any of that.

Without God, and Jesus, salvation wouldn't be available to anyone.
He is the author of our conversion and eventual salvation, but even that free gift must be "opened" by its recipients.
God won't save anyone who doesn't comply with His ways and means of conversion, regeneration, or life in Christ Jesus.
You are seeming to outlaw obedience with your weird doctrine.

Freed18, you just confirmed you do not believe Jesus Christ is the complete Savior that Scripture plainly and
unequivocally declares Him to be. When (if) you are able to, the rest of the pieces will also fall into place. Should that
occur, post me and we can continue then.

 

[amazingrace]

Amazingrace, yes, it is entirely of God and not of ourselves. True obedience is given by God and is strictly obedience to the faith. When Jude 1:21 states to keep yourselves in the love of God, it is not establishing a conditional performance contract based on human willpower. We must look at the brackets of the exact same chapter to understand how a child of God is kept. Look at the very first verse, Jude 1:1, which identifies to whom the letter is addressed. It states clearly that it is written to them that are "sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called." The verses establishes that preservation is a finished fact in Christ before the instructions were even given. Now look at the closing bracket in Jude 1:24. The text drops an absolute hammer on human performance by stating, "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy." The text does not say man keeps himself. It explicitly states that Christ is the sole Savior who possesses the ability to keep God's elect family - one and all - from falling. The commands to the family are the fruit of being preserved, not the cause of it.

---

Jn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Is Jesus only truth to be believed by faith alone?

do we also have to follow Him in obedience in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake, (ps 23:3) on the moral and narrow road that leads to life. (mt 7:14) "eternal salvation"

and have the life of grace?

thks

 

[amazingrace]

Amazingrace, yes, it is entirely of God and not of ourselves. True obedience is given by God and is strictly obedience to the faith. When Jude 1:21 states to keep yourselves in the love of God, it is not establishing a conditional performance contract based on human willpower. We must look at the brackets of the exact same chapter to understand how a child of God is kept. Look at the very first verse, Jude 1:1, which identifies to whom the letter is addressed. It states clearly that it is written to them that are "sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called." The verses establishes that preservation is a finished fact in Christ before the instructions were even given. Now look at the closing bracket in Jude 1:24. The text drops an absolute hammer on human performance by stating, "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy." The text does not say man keeps himself. It explicitly states that Christ is the sole Savior who possesses the ability to keep God's elect family - one and all - from falling. The commands to the family are the fruit of being preserved, not the cause of it.

---

and these

Jn 15:1-6 abide in me

mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13
he who endures to the end shall be saved

and rev 2:10 he who overcomes gets the crown of life or eternal salvation

thks

 

[amazingrace]

Mmm, yeah Catholics. But most everyone on here is probably saved. I think the devil beats some of these guys up over salvation.

best check with scripture!

mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13

he who endures to the end shall be saved!

rev 2:10 he who overcomes

thks

 

[rogerg]

Jn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Is Jesus only truth to be believed by faith alone?

do we also have to follow Him in obedience in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake, (ps 23:3) on the moral and narrow road that leads to life. (mt 7:14) "eternal salvation"

and have the life of grace?

thks

and these

Jn 15:1-6 abide in me

mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13
he who endures to the end shall be saved

and rev 2:10 he who overcomes gets the crown of life or eternal salvation

thks

amazingrace, your individual verses actually describe the earthly fruits and results of salvation rather than being the conditional means to obtaining or maintaining it. I believe that you have the order backwards. Consider what the verses are actually saying:
First, you ask if we must follow Christ in obedience on the narrow road to obtain eternal salvation. To clarify, in Matthew 7:14, Jesus Himself is THE narrow way that leads to life - that means that all of it is by HIM alone, from beginning to end - not just a part of it and not being a part of a human performance checklist. Walking in obedience and abiding in the vine are the direct, inevitable fruit of being a child of God who became saved. They are effect, not cause. A branch bears fruit simply because it is physically joined to the vine and draws its life from the root. Look at the order as stated in John 15:16, where Jesus says: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain." Those who are His true disciples, bring forth fruit, not because of themselves, but because of Him. Those who never possessed a connection to the vine of Christ from the beginning, not true disciples, whither, dry, and are cast into the fire. John 15 generally describes the difference between those who are attached to the true vine and those who are not - it is not a performance checklist to keep from being sent to hell.
Second, you quote Matthew 24:13 regarding enduring to the end to be saved. But because "shall be saved" is written in the future tense, it actually refers to the final deliverance (being saved) from God's wrath on the last day, not the salvation of justification by Christ that occurs during someone's life on earth - the word "saved" is used in both ways in Scripture. Further, 1 John 5:4 explicitly defines who overcomes: "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." This faith does not originate with or from man - it is not self-produced by man. Rather, faith is the unearned gift of God given within the new heart at the new birth that man continually over time, grows into. Endurance and final deliverance from God's wrath are the future, guaranteed results of God's indwelling of the true believer. They are not human actions generated by man's intellect or willpower. If salvation depends on man's ability to endure and comply, then Christ cannot be THE Savior, and man must therefore save himself. We will all either stand on Jesus Christ as our complete and sole Savior, or we will be judged by our works - there is no middle ground.

 

[Lamar]

And yet disobedience to the Lord makes a person a servant of satan by default.
We are called to walk in agreement with the Lord, not in agreement with the devil.

These are the only two options man has, obey the Lord or obey the devil.

That's not how election works.

Mankind is simply living out their fate.

Mankind can neither obey or disobey God or Satan.

God decides who they will obey.

This is the lie of election.

 

[Blade]

best check with scripture!

mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13

he who endures to the end shall be saved!

rev 2:10 he who overcomes

thks

Quoted Matt,Mark when they were not Christians no Church. They asked him, "When will these things happen, and what will be the sign of your coming?" What 70Ad.. and then the end. Yeah two part and context.

Confused on Rev 2:10 "He who overcomes"? I read "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Are you talking about the crown of life? Its a reward promised to those who faithfully endure trials, temptation, and persecution. Not about salvation.

obedience-required sorry pffft...to say it again.. In the New Testament, obedience is often used as a synonym for belief, as in "obeying the truth" (1 Peter 1:22), and "they are not all obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16). This is what you meant right? We do the Fathers will right as Christ said? To do the Fathers will is to believe on trust in who Jesus said He was John 3:16. That is as you said obedience required. Can't be based on works or we could all boast on all the good we do for Jesus woot! Some are on the streets every day or in hospitals or missionaries etc.. man those people are super saved huh.. just playing.

Goes back to one mans sin... one mans death. Did you know NT we don't die we sleep? Christ is the only one that died. Okay. Take Stephen.. stoned.. wow.. and then laid down fell asleep. Believes don't die they go right to the Father. Haha no not talking that doctrine soul sleep. We don't die.. we don't taste death. Only He died. The song old song, "Because he lives, I can face tomorrow."

So yes we all should obey Him.. believe God sent Him.. believe He is who HE said He was. You do that.. your obeying Him. I don't use AI but I took what I just said and .. I like this "constitutes the foundational obedience". The rest here... haha I like what Sis said...

 

[ScooterJackson]

God decides who they will obey.

That's false doctrine.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom YOU yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The false teachers never showed you all the passages where the Lord said it was His will that none perish and that He wants all to be saved.

The catholics and the reformers are the modern day version of the sadducees and pharisees.
I hope you get out now while you still can. Your time is very short.

 

[PastMyPrime]

1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How about you? Do you walk in the Light?

According to 1 John 1:8 you have deceived yourself when you say you never sin.
You have sinned by saying you do not sin.
I have said I fail many times as hard as I strive to live for Jesus. He is faithful to forgive my sin when I confess those sins.

 

[ScooterJackson]

According to 1 John 1:8 you have deceived yourself when you say you never sin

I never said I didn't have sin on my record.

The deception is on your end, not mine.

 

[PastMyPrime]

I never said I didn't have sin on my record.

The deception is on your end, not mine.

Oh so you do sin!!! You finally admitted you are no more holy than the rest of us saved sinners. Did you get saved again?
You imply that I and others who freely admit we sometimes sin are not trying to be obedient and are therefore lost.

 

[ScooterJackson]

Oh so you do sin!!!

I don't live in sin, no.
I have sinned in the past. And there's a possibility that I could sin in the future,

You imply that I and others who freely admit we sometimes sin are not trying to be obedient and are therefore lost.

No, I pointed out the false doctrine of the reformers who claim they live in sin every day and sin daily in thought word and deed claiming it's not possible to stop living in sin as they claim God put sin in them when they were formed in the womb so they are born sinners

Hey man, if you feel the need to sin all the time have at it. Doesn't effect me on judgement day at all.

Have you ever though about believing this passage and accepting it as actually being true???

1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin

 

[NightTwister]

best check with scripture!

mk 13:13 mt 10:22 mt 24:13

he who endures to the end shall be saved!

rev 2:10 he who overcomes

thks

Keep working. You'll never get there.

 

[mailmandan]

Keep working. You'll never get there.

Romans 4:4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: