looking for help reconciling the Sabbath with common observation?

[Journey_man]

Where the biblical evidence?
Show where Sunday was set apart from any other day they gathered and worshiped.

It's all in the Bible, you just need someone to help you connect the dots

 

[Journey_man]

Asking for biblical evidence in support of a Sunday sabbath is NOT a paradoxical question.

The evidence is there, but you won't find it written in a easy to understand format.

 

[OMC]

Again, we need the help of the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to us. We are supposed to be coming to the knowledge of the truth, not using our limited knowledge to beat up those who disagree with us. Of course, there are false doctrines and we must oppose them and justify our opposition from God's word.

I now attend an Anglican church. If someone had foretold this 50 years ago, I would have laughed at them. I don't agree with all their doctrines. However, the pastor (his word) is alive in Christ, baptised in the Holy Spirit and loves the brethren. I know full on Pentecostals who have more accurate doctrines but who are so far above everyone that they are unapproachable. I know which I prefer.

I think there is a great deal of wisdom in what you've said.
Knowledge is important, doctrine is important, and truth is important.
But Scripture never presents knowledge alone as the mark of spiritual maturity.
Paul warns that "knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth" (1 Cor. 8:1).
The goal is not merely to win arguments but to grow in the truth while walking in love.

I also agree that the Holy Spirit must illuminate our understanding.
No amount of intellectual ability can replace dependence upon God.
At the same time, I think the Spirit ordinarily works through the Scriptures He inspired, which is why I keep returning to the text itself.
My concern has never been to beat up those who disagree with me, but to test my own conclusions and everyone else's by the Word of God.

Your example is a good reminder that doctrinal precision and spiritual maturity are not always found in equal measure.
I've met believers with excellent doctrine who lacked gentleness, humility, and patience.
I've also met believers whose theology had weaknesses, yet whose love for Christ and His people was unmistakable.
Neither problem should be ignored. We should pursue both truth and love.

Where I think we agree is that not every disagreement belongs in the same category.
There are truths that define the faith itself, such as the identity of Christ, His death and resurrection, and salvation by God's grace. Then there are matters on which sincere believers may disagree while remaining brothers and sisters in Christ.
The Sabbath debate seems to me much closer to the latter category than the former.

So while I will continue to question interpretations that I believe go beyond the text, I hope to do so as a fellow learner rather than as someone claiming final possession of all truth.
We are all coming to the knowledge of the truth, and none of us has arrived perfectly yet.
"Now we see through a glass, darkly" (1 Cor. 13:12).
That realization should make us both diligent in study and humble in discussion.

 

[Gideon300]

I think there is a great deal of wisdom in what you've said.
Knowledge is important, doctrine is important, and truth is important.
But Scripture never presents knowledge alone as the mark of spiritual maturity.
Paul warns that "knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth" (1 Cor. 8:1).
The goal is not merely to win arguments but to grow in the truth while walking in love.

I also agree that the Holy Spirit must illuminate our understanding.
No amount of intellectual ability can replace dependence upon God.
At the same time, I think the Spirit ordinarily works through the Scriptures He inspired, which is why I keep returning to the text itself.
My concern has never been to beat up those who disagree with me, but to test my own conclusions and everyone else's by the Word of God.

Your example is a good reminder that doctrinal precision and spiritual maturity are not always found in equal measure.
I've met believers with excellent doctrine who lacked gentleness, humility, and patience.
I've also met believers whose theology had weaknesses, yet whose love for Christ and His people was unmistakable.
Neither problem should be ignored. We should pursue both truth and love.

Where I think we agree is that not every disagreement belongs in the same category.
There are truths that define the faith itself, such as the identity of Christ, His death and resurrection, and salvation by God's grace. Then there are matters on which sincere believers may disagree while remaining brothers and sisters in Christ.
The Sabbath debate seems to me much closer to the latter category than the former.

So while I will continue to question interpretations that I believe go beyond the text, I hope to do so as a fellow learner rather than as someone claiming final possession of all truth.
We are all coming to the knowledge of the truth, and none of us has arrived perfectly yet.
"Now we see through a glass, darkly" (1 Cor. 13:12).
That realization should make us both diligent in study and humble in discussion.

My issue with the sabbath obsessed is not that they choose to worship on the sabbath. It is that they seek to bring others into subjection to their own belief. I would agree to disagree. They will not.​

 

[Journey_man]

That is a Catholic view:
"The common layman does not have the cognitive ability to understand scripture.
This is why a priest must interpret the bible for them."

But, naturally, if a priest teaches anything contrary to Catholic doctrine he must recant or be anathema (declared a heretic).
He would lose his job and perhaps be fined, imprisoned, burned at the steak.....

It's actually a Biblical view. God appoints Shepherds to protect us sheep from those wolves who seek to devour us with their false teaching.

I can't possibly match my Shepherds theological knowledge and wisdom. God gave him the gift of discernment and many other gifts which He never gave to the rest of us sheep in the congregation.

 

[OMC]

My issue with the sabbath obsessed is not that they choose to worship on the sabbath. It is that they seek to bring others into subjection to their own belief. I would agree to disagree. They will not.​

I know, but we just keep praying and hopefully one day?

 

[NightTwister]

Gen 2:2-3
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Then read

Exo 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

What is the reason for this command.

Because God blessed the seventh day.

This cycle was instituted by God Himself through a specific process of working for six days and resting on the seventh, which measured off the first weekly period as a pattern for all successive weeks until the end of time. We still have a seven day cycle today.

Unlike the day, month, or year, the week is not a natural measure of time derived from the movements of the heavenly bodies; it owes its existence entirely to the appointment of the Sabbath.

It is not an easy number to fit into the cycles we have.
The week exists solely because of the Sabbath institution; without the act of Jehovah setting apart the seventh day, such a division of time would never have existed.

The measurement of time by weeks of seven days is a well-attested historical fact found among the most ancient nations, proving its antiquity and divine origin.

The Patriarchs: Long before the law was given at Sinai, the patriarchs reckoned time by weeks and sevens of days.
Noah observed this cycle when sending out the dove from the ark in seven-day intervals Genesis 8:10, 12.

During the time of Jacob, the "week" was a recognized period of seven days used for marriage festivities. Genesis 29:27-28.

Before reaching Sinai, God pointed out the true weekly cycle through the miracle of the manna. For forty years, He sent a double portion on the sixth day and none on the seventh, demonstrating that the seventh day was a definitely recurring day in a fixed cycle. Exo 16:22-26.

To sanctify a day means to set it aside for holy use..

A) Genesis: Single day
B) Exodus: Mosaic cyclical law.

You keep trying to make A cyclical because of B, but the text does not support it.

 

[Journey_man]

According to Scripture, salvation is entirely by God's grace and not earned through law-keeping (Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5), and no fallen man has achieved the perfect righteousness God's holiness requires (Rom. 3:23).
Christ alone fulfilled that righteousness and bore sin on behalf of His people (Rom. 5:19; 1 Pet. 2:22-24).
However, Scripture also does not separate saving faith from obedience.
Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15), and John wrote, "Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments" (1 John 2:3).
So the biblical balance is that obedience does not earn salvation, maintain salvation, or add to Christ's finished work, but genuine faith produces obedience as its fruit.
Good works are not the root of salvation, but they are the evidence of a living faith and a transformed heart (Eph. 2:10; James 2:17).

You touched on a very contentious point, by stating that "genuine faith produces obedience as it's fruit". I firmly believe this to be Biblically correct, but the Bible teaches that faith itself is a gift from God.

God regenerates (gives spiritual life to) the elect before they believe, which actively enables and ensures that they will exercise faith.

It is all important to distinguish between "common grace" (God's general goodness, restraint of evil, and blessings given to all humanity universally) and "saving grace" (the specific, supernatural intervention that leads directly to justification and eternal life for the elect).

Because of the fall of man, humans are dead in sin and morally unable to choose or trust God on their own free will. A person cannot generate their own faith from a fallen state.

God's saving grace is irresistible, saving grace—is not extended to every individual. Instead, God unconditionally elects a specific group of people (the elect) to receive this saving grace.

 

[Gideon300]

It's actually a Biblical view. God appoints Shepherds to protect us sheep from those wolves who seek to devour us with their false teaching.

I can't possibly match my Shepherds theological knowledge and wisdom. God gave him the gift of discernment and many other gifts which He never gave to the rest of us sheep in the congregation.

The function of the ministry gifts (apostles, prophets, evangelists teachers and pastors) is to equip the saints. God's will is that we all come to the knowledge of the truth. We are encouraged to seek spiritual gifts, especially revelation gifts.

The saddest thing about relying on "Shepherds" is how easy it is for them to lead the ignorant astray. Many theological seminaries no longer consider the Bible as God's word.

"The president of a seminary founded in 1836 on the “infallible” Word of God says in a new interview she doesn’t believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ, the power of prayer, a literal heaven, or miracles." It's the Union Seminary New York.

There are many similar stories of doubt and unbelief flooding the institutions that were founded to train leaders. Every believer needs to be "Berean" in outlook. Too many Christians contract out their Christian lives to paid professionals instead of developing a relationship with Christ themselves. We do need the gifts that Christ gives to the church. We also need to be watchful and diligent ourselves.​

 

[OMC]

You touched on a very contentious point, by stating that "genuine faith produces obedience as it's fruit". I firmly believe this to be Biblically correct, but the Bible teaches that faith itself is a gift from God.

God regenerates (gives spiritual life to) the elect before they believe, which actively enables and ensures that they will exercise faith.

It is all important to distinguish between "common grace" (God's general goodness, restraint of evil, and blessings given to all humanity universally) and "saving grace" (the specific, supernatural intervention that leads directly to justification and eternal life for the elect).

Because of the fall of man, humans are dead in sin and morally unable to choose or trust God on their own free will. A person cannot generate their own faith from a fallen state.

God's saving grace is irresistible, saving grace—is not extended to every individual. Instead, God unconditionally elects a specific group of people (the elect) to receive this saving grace.

I agree that faith is a gift of God and that no sinner can come to Christ apart from God's gracious work.
Scripture is clear that we were dead in trespasses and sins, that salvation is by grace, and that God must draw sinners to Himself (Eph. 2:1-9; John 6:44).
Where I am more cautious is in moving from those explicit truths to the conclusion that regeneration must always precede faith and that saving grace is given only to a predetermined group in a way that excludes all others from any genuine opportunity to respond.
I certainly see strong passages on election and God's sovereignty, but I also see universal calls to repent and believe, and repeated appeals directed to sinners.
So while I agree entirely that faith does not originate in fallen man and that salvation belongs to the Lord, I am less convinced that the full Calvinistic system follows as a necessary conclusion from every relevant text.
To me, the clearest biblical truths are that salvation is God's work from beginning to end, that no one can boast, and that everyone who truly comes to Christ does so because God has first shown them mercy.
Beyond that, I think sincere believers may differ on the precise relationship between election, regeneration, faith, and human responsibility while remaining committed to the authority of Scripture.

 

[Churchgoer]

7th, count from 1 to 7, then repeat.

Everyone is allowed to start from different 1, as Noah did.

 

[Journey_man]

The function of the ministry gifts (apostles, prophets, evangelists teachers and pastors) is to equip the saints. God's will is that we all come to the knowledge of the truth. We are encouraged to seek spiritual gifts, especially revelation gifts.

The saddest thing about relying on "Shepherds" is how easy it is for them to lead the ignorant astray. Many theological seminaries no longer consider the Bible as God's word.

"The president of a seminary founded in 1836 on the “infallible” Word of God says in a new interview she doesn’t believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ, the power of prayer, a literal heaven, or miracles." It's the Union Seminary New York.

There are many similar stories of doubt and unbelief flooding the institutions that were founded to train leaders. Every believer needs to be "Berean" in outlook. Too many Christians contract out their Christian lives to paid professionals instead of developing a relationship with Christ themselves. We do need the gifts that Christ gives to the church. We also need to be watchful and diligent ourselves.​

I know exactly what you mean about the responsibilities we have as Church members. The Berean's didn't just outsource their responsibilities as believers to their Shephard. Each Church member plays their own unique role in the life of the Church.

Our Minister is our equal in the Body of Christ, but his role comes with far more responsibility than mine. He is a full time paid Minister, so his responsibility before God is the spiritual health of the Church. He has a large office and it's filled with books from wall to wall, he has been the Minister for 19 years.

I don't have anywhere near the amount of time to study the Bible or read books, because my work takes up most of my day. It took me almost three years to find a Church, where the gospel is preached faithfully. Most of the Churches I visited while looking to join one, didn't preach the whole counsel of God.

The seeker friendly Churches had good rock bands, coffee machines and large crowds but they didn't dare preach about judgement, sin and all those other messages that make folks uncomfortable. I believe those prosperity preaches are a product of those who seek to have their ears tickled.

When I first heard the true preaching of the gospel, I also felt like walking out but something made me stay and I believe it was the Holy Spirit.

 

[2Christ]

Oh you are funny. You should take up comedy. I learned from the day I was born again that I did not need to observe the Sabbath. First, I had no idea that such a command existed. Second, I was in the military. Those in charge required me to work day or night, any day of the week, while the ship was at sea. If something broke, I had to fix it. It was essential to the role of the ship.

Lord Jesus has had 54 years to write it on my heart. I long ago realised that there is a new law, the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patient endurance, self control, goodness, gentleness, kindness and faithfulness. I see no "and Sabbath observance" in that list.

You are not worthy, it’s why it was not written in you, ignorant man, repent before it’s too late

 

[OMC]

You are not worthy, it’s why it was not written in you, ignorant man, repent before it’s too late

You might want to ask yourself whether you're speaking as someone who has received mercy or as someone looking down on another sinner.
Scripture says we were all once ignorant and unworthy apart from God's grace.
Calling someone "ignorant man" may express frustration, but it does little to reflect the gentleness and humility we're commanded to show.
If you believe someone is in error, show it from Scripture, warn them if necessary, and call them to repentance, but do so as a fellow sinner who needed the same mercy you are urging them to seek.
Truth does not need to be strengthened by contempt.

 

[Roger316]

If the Sabbath was introduced at creation for all mankind before sin it is not in this Mosaic category.

We need to maintain the distinction between the Sabbath introduced at creation and the religious observance of a weekly Sabbath. The latter is based on the former, but they are not the same thing. We are all familiar with celebrating historical events by observing holidays. A classic example is Independence Day (July 4) in the United States. It commemorates the adoption of the Declaration of Independence on July 4, 1776, when the American colonies formally declared their independence from Great Britain.

The Day | Celebration of the Day
Seventh day of creation | Weekly Sabbath

Moral imperative: Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy
Cultural religious practice: Rest every seventh day.

See the Difference?

 

[Churchgoer]

7th, count from 1 to 7, then repeat.

Everyone is allowed to start from different 1, as Noah did.

Manna week too. Start from. Manna day 1.

The old jews know this, that's the reason they gather on Jesus risen day, by cycle of 7. This complies with commandment 4.

 

[OMC]

Manna week too. Start from. Manna day 1.

The old jews know this, that's the reason they gather on Jesus risen day, by cycle of 7. This complies with commandment 4.

I was enjoying the Genesis questions. What happened to that? There was some really good stuff to think on being brought up.

 

[Churchgoer]

I was enjoying the Genesis questions. What happened to that? There was some really good stuff to think on being brought up.

Me too. Love that too.
Waiting to chime in. Will go take a look.

 

[2Christ]

You might want to ask yourself whether you're speaking as someone who has received mercy or as someone looking down on another sinner.
Scripture says we were all once ignorant and unworthy apart from God's grace.
Calling someone "ignorant man" may express frustration, but it does little to reflect the gentleness and humility we're commanded to show.
If you believe someone is in error, show it from Scripture, warn them if necessary, and call them to repentance, but do so as a fellow sinner who needed the same mercy you are urging them to seek.
Truth does not need to be strengthened by contempt.

He cannot be redeemed, been trying for a long time he wont change, has a hart of stone, go at it if you can.

He claims to have the holy spirit yet REFUSES to obey Christ, thinks he does not have to follow His Commandments, he is toast until he repents ans does God's will.

He wasted a lot of my time don't let him do this to you as well.

 

[Roger316]

Observing the seventh-day Sabbath is a moral obligation because it is a matter of rendering to God that which is rightfully His and honoring our relationship with the Creator. The fourth commandment is not a requirement for man to give something of his own to God, but rather an injunction not to appropriate to himself the specific time God has reserved for His own worship.

You make a good point. Observing the Seven Day Sabbath is a moral obligation because God commanded Israel to celebrate the Seventh day of Creation. It is always a moral obligation to obey God.

But the claim we are addressing has two aspects of the same question: did God command all of humanity to celebrate the Sabbath day every seventh day of the week, and is celebrating the Sabbath every seventh day of the week inherently moral? The answer to both questions is no. God did not command everyone in the world to celebrate the seventh day of creation. We have no biblical evidence to support such an idea. And celebrating an historical event is not a moral issue; it is a cultural issue.

The Sabbath is unique among the Ten Commandments because it is written upon the very front of nature, explaining how our world came into existence and pointing us to the true God. Without the Sabbath and the facts it commemorates, we could not distinguish the Creator from false gods.

On the contrary, the weekly Sabbath doesn't commemorate creation; it commemorates the day God rested. The focus is on rest, which is why labor is absent from the weekly sabbath commemoration.

A Sign of Loyalty: It serves as a perpetual sign between God and His people, (spiritual Israelites) signifying that He is the Lord who sanctifies them. Ezekiel 20:12.

On the contrary, those who came out of Egypt were not Spiritual Israelites. They were Israelites by birth.

It was established at the beginning of human history, before sin entered the world, making it an original moral duty for the entire human race Genesis 2:1-3.

The historical event of God resting on the Seventh day took place at the beginning. The Weekly Sabbath holiday was established by Moses.

The Sabbath grows out of man's moral, mental, and physical needs, acting as the link that unites humanity to the Creator and to one another.

The concept of rest, peace, and shalom certainly rises out of man's moral, mental and physical needs. But the celebration of that day is not a moral imperative.

By keeping the Sabbath, we acknowledge that we owe our existence and every blessing to God, which involves an obligation to love Him supremely.

Don't confuse the occasion (Weekly day of rest) with its purpose. We can gather with other believers any day of the week to acknowledge God, praise God, and honor God, "speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord." Ephesians 5:19

It reminds us that God made our fellow creatures as well as ourselves, reinforcing the duty to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Keeping the Sabbath day doesn't remind anyone of anything. We remind each other.

It lies at the foundation of all moral law; indeed, to appropriate God's rest-day to ourselves is to rob God.

Sounds holy, but I don't think it rings true. How is working on Saturday Robbing God of anything? if anything, working on Saturday is robbing ourselves of free time.

The Ceremonial sabbaths were "shadows" pointing forward to redemption, whereas the seventh-day Sabbath is a "memorial" pointing back to creation. Colossians 2:16-17

Resting every seventh day of the week is just another ceremonial holiday like all the rest.