Obedience REQUIRED

[OMC]

Any second repentance shows that the first one was a lie to God.
We can't build a relationship with God that is based on lies.

I would respectfully disagree, because genuine repentance is not a promise that one will never sin again but a real turning to God, and the fact that believers are repeatedly instructed to confess and repent when they sin (1 John 1:9; Rev. 2-3) shows that subsequent repentance is evidence of ongoing faithfulness, not proof that the first repentance was false.

That day passed on the day Christ was resurrected from the dead.
Since then, we have been able to be baptized into His death, burial, and resurrction, so we can walk in newness of life

I agree that Romans 6 teaches believers have been united with Christ in His death and resurrection to walk in newness of life, but the same apostles who taught that also continued to warn believers about sin, call them to ongoing repentance, and look forward to the final day when sin and death themselves are completely abolished (1 Cor. 15:24-26; 1 John 1:8-9; Rev. 21:4).

There are no 'levels of obedience'.
There is only obedience and disobedience

I agree that obedience and disobedience are distinct categories, but my point was that believers grow in conformity to Christ over time, and until glorification even sincere believers continue to battle sin and therefore remain dependent upon God's ongoing grace and forgiveness (Phil. 3:12-14; 1 John 1:8-9).

Have you ever read Gal 3:27 ?..."For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
How can one not be conformed to Christ if they have "put Him on" ?

I have read Galatians 3:27, and I agree that those baptized into Christ have "put on Christ," but Paul still exhorts those same believers to grow into Christ's likeness (Rom. 8:29; 2 Cor. 3:18), which shows that being united to Christ and being progressively conformed to Him are related realities rather than identical ones.

Instead of fighting sin, fight the temptation to sin.
It is written..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

I agree that James 4:7 commands us to resist the devil and temptation, but that is precisely what I mean by fighting sin, since the biblical battle against sin is fought at the level of temptation, desire, thought, and action before it bears fruit in disobedience (James 1:14-15; James 4:7).

 

[Freed18]

I agree that we can and should repent, obey, resist temptation, and pursue holiness, but Scripture distinguishes between what believers are commanded to do and what actually justifies a sinner before God, which Paul says is faith apart from works (Rom. 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9).

I agree that God does not justify those who remain in willful rebellion, and I agree that repentance, baptism, and perseverance are all taught in Scripture; where I differ is that Romans 4:5 says God justifies the ungodly who believe, meaning justification is granted to the sinner who comes to God in faith, not because he has first become righteous enough to merit it.
Repentance does not make a person an ex-sinner in the sense of becoming worthy of justification, because even after conversion believers still need Christ's advocacy when they sin (1 John 2:1).
Baptism is profoundly important, but the cleansing power is in Christ's blood, not in the act itself.
We both agree that believers must endure faithfully to the end; my point is simply that our endurance is the fruit of God's saving work, not the payment by which we secure our final acceptance before Him.
The sinner is justified because of Christ, and the justified sinner is then called to walk in obedience.

I agree that love-driven obedience and the warnings about perseverance belong together, but I would still distinguish between obeying because Christ is worthy and obeying in order to earn or maintain justification, since Scripture grounds justification in faith while calling the justified to endure in faithful obedience.

I agree that some people wrongly dismiss repentance, baptism, and obedience because they fear "works," but even if we limit Paul's immediate context to works of the Law, Paul still distinguishes between the obedience that flows from faith and the works by which a person attempts to establish his own righteousness before God (Rom. 3:20; 4:4-5; Phil. 3:9).

I agree that repentance and baptism are commanded responses to the gospel, but if obedience is the thing that receives justification because it earns God's acceptance, then justification is no longer being received by grace through faith but as something secured by human performance, which is the distinction Paul is addressing in Romans 4:4-5.

I agree that believers must actively persevere and that those who abandon Christ are warned of judgment, but I would say the "car" itself, the road, the fuel, and even our ability to steer are gifts of God's grace, so while our actions matter, salvation ultimately depends on God's saving work rather than our independent ability to keep ourselves saved (John 15:5; Phil. 2:12-13; Jude 24).

I agree that Scripture warns the unfaithful and calls believers to persevere, but Philippians 1:6 emphasizes God's faithfulness in completing His work, so the question is not whether true faith endures, but whether that endurance is ultimately grounded in God's preserving grace or in man's ability to remain faithful.

I agree that each person is accountable for his life and that God's gifts are sufficient for faithful obedience, but Scripture's tension remains because the same Bible that commands perseverance also says that justification is not by works and that our ultimate confidence rests in God's mercy and Christ's righteousness rather than in our own ability to stand innocent before Him (Rom. 4:5; Phil. 3:9; Titus 3:5).

The only works written against are the works of the Law.
Everything we do is to please God and neighbor.
Everything we do is for salvation, directly or indirectly.

 

[OMC]

Yes he does.

Had you gone down a few more verses, the Law is mentioned..."For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Rom 4:13)

Please name a general work that will not contribute to our salvation.
Believing ?
Turning permanently from sin ?
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins ?
Resisting temptation ?
Remaining faithful until the end of time ?
Going out of our way for a neighbor ?
Are you ready to omit any of these things from your life because they are non-Law works ?

oh wow, just got it. You are from the church of christ yes? Restoration Movement theology?

 

[Freed18]

I would respectfully disagree, because genuine repentance is not a promise that one will never sin again

If one turns from sin (repents from/of sin), he sould be a non-sinner from that point onward.

but a real turning to God, and the fact that believers are repeatedly instructed to confess and repent when they sin (1 John 1:9; Rev. 2-3) shows that subsequent repentance is evidence of ongoing faithfulness, not proof that the first repentance was false.

Only a real termination of sin will result in a faithfully lived life

I agree that Romans 6 teaches believers have been united with Christ in His death and resurrection to walk in newness of life, but the same apostles who taught that also continued to warn believers about sin, call them to ongoing repentance, and look forward to the final day when sin and death themselves are completely abolished (1 Cor. 15:24-26; 1 John 1:8-9; Rev. 21:4).

Those who took the warnings to heart will find their names in the book of life.
Those who didn't, will be lost.

I agree that obedience and disobedience are distinct categories, but my point was that believers grow in conformity to Christ over time, and until glorification even sincere believers continue to battle sin and therefore remain dependent upon God's ongoing grace and forgiveness (Phil. 3:12-14; 1 John 1:8-9).

We only battle temptaion, as we have left sin in the past at our repentance from sin.

I have read Galatians 3:27, and I agree that those baptized into Christ have "put on Christ," but Paul still exhorts those same believers to grow into Christ's likeness (Rom. 8:29; 2 Cor. 3:18), which shows that being united to Christ and being progressively conformed to Him are related realities rather than identical ones.

OK, point taken.
But being in Christ is impossible for those committing sin, as there is no sin in Christ.

I agree that James 4:7 commands us to resist the devil and temptation, but that is precisely what I mean by fighting sin, since the biblical battle against sin is fought at the level of temptation, desire, thought, and action before it bears fruit in disobedience (James 1:14-15; James 4:7).

Amen.
Your "fighting against sin" is my "fighting against committing sin".
And it will result in salvation.

 

[Freed18]

oh wow, just got it. You are from the church of christ yes? Restoration Movement theology?

I am of "The Church By Christ Jesus (Eph3:21)".
I am unfamiliar with a Restoration Movement.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes he does.

I already proved otherwise.

Had you gone down a few more verses, the Law is mentioned..."For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Rom 4:13)

The law may have been mentioned yet Abraham was still before the law of Moses. The promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Not faith and works.

Please name a general work that will not contribute to our salvation.
Believing?

Believing is not simply just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Through believing, we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption - Romans 3:22-26)

Turning permanently from sin?

Sinless perfection? (1 John 1:8-10)

Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins?

Baptism is a work of righteousness (Matthew 3:13-15) and we're not saved by works of righteousness which we have done. (Titus 3:5)

Acts 2:38 needs to be read alongside (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) and notice where forgiveness of sins is explicitly tied to repentance/belief/faith and not water baptism.

Resisting temptation?

100% of the time? Back to sinless perfection?

Remaining faithful until the end of time?

Descriptive only of those who are born of God.

Going out of our way for a neighbor?

Loving our neighbor as ourself. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Are you ready to omit any of these things from your life because they are non-Law works?

Who said anything about ommitting those things from the Christian life? Don't confuse how we become Christians with how Christians conduct their lives after becoming a Christian. You seem to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture, which suggests that you teach works salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

oh wow, just got it. You are from the church of christ yes? Restoration Movement theology?

The plan of salvation according to the church of Christ/Restoration Movement/Campbellism is believe, repent, confess, be baptized, remain faithful. Their plan of salvation culminates in salvation by faith and works.

 

[mailmandan]

I am of "The Church By Christ Jesus (Eph3:21)".
I am unfamiliar with a Restoration Movement.

All born again Christians are a part of the Church/the body of Christ.

Which denominational or non-demominational church organization do you attend?

 

[rogerg]

If Jesus wasn't the complete Savior, I would still be walking in sin.
But I walk in the light, which is God; and there is no sin in here.

How come the complete Savior has left you in sin ?
Could it possible be, that you have yet to avail yourself of His gift of repentance from sin ?
He won't force it on you, you know ?

Freed18,
1. If you believe that you caused or contributed to your own salvation in any way as you seemed to say in your prior post and above, then as I explained to you, Jesus Christ isn't your complete Savior, you are. Instead, you should have recognized that Jesus Christ alone is THE Savior who saves completely.
2. According to 1 John 1:8, if YOU say you have no sin, then you confirm that verse applies to you because you aren't walking in the light but in darkness, as demonstrated by you in "1" above.

 

[mailmandan]

Paul is certainly arguing against reliance on works for justification, and in Romans 4 his immediate examples include circumcision (Rom. 4:9-12) and matters connected to the Law.
However, Paul does not limit the principle only to ceremonial works.
His point is broader: "to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt" (Rom. 4:4).
If any work, whether ceremonial or moral, could earn justification, salvation would be a debt owed rather than a gift of grace.
That is why Paul says God "justifies the ungodly" who believe (Rom. 4:5).

Amen! Well said. Now although the Jews were primarily hung up on specific works of the Mosaic Law, Paul does not merely limit "works" only to ceremonial works under the law. *Folks who teach salvation by works will typically try to turn "not saved by works" into not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but still saved by "those" works (good works) but that argument is bogus. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

In regard to works in Romans 4:2, Abraham was BEFORE the law. Elsewhere, Paul said that it is not by works of righteousness (literally, works done in righteousness) which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. so "not saved by works" includes works in general. Also, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, we cannot dissect good works from the law of Moses.

In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. There are no good works that a Christian could accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

 

[ScooterJackson]

You are judging people as lost because they admit they do sin from time to time saying they are living is sin, not really striving to live in obedience.

No, some are very proudly proclaiming they are sinners and claim they sin every day all day claiming it's not possible to stop sinning and don't believe they should or have to confess and forsake their sin in order to be cleansed of un righteousness taught in Proverbs 28:13 and 1 John 1:9 and they take it even further claiming we can willing and knowingly live in sin and still be saved.

That's doctrines of devils right there. It came out of the false doctrines of so called reformed theology that fails to accept the whole counsel of God as they instead follow traditions of men from within reformed theology who taught error.

And be sure if you live very long you will sin several times. There is no might about it.

Not knowingly or willingly.

 

[ScooterJackson]

If one turns from sin (repents from/of sin), he should be a non-sinner from that point onward.

Those serious about being a Christian will walk in this:

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

And they will take heed to these instructions and actually walk in them:

Ephesians 4:22-24 - put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 13:14 - put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Colossians 3:10 - And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created Him:

2 Corinthians 6:17 - come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

1 Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Titus 2:11,12 - For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world

These passages must not be in the reformers "bibles"

But being in Christ is impossible for those committing sin, as there is no sin in Christ.

In order to sin a person has to turn away from Christ to do so and at that moment they are no longer in Christ because they have separated themselves from Him

Jude 1:17-19
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jude 1:17-19 is not talking to sinners out in the world, it's talking to Christians because those who have never been born again cannot separate themselves from the Holy Spirit since they have never been in union with Him to start with.

I am of "The Church By Christ Jesus (Eph3:21)".
I am unfamiliar with a Restoration Movement.

The reformers claimed to be restoring Christianity back to what it originally was but they failed spectacularly in their efforts.

 

[Lamar]

That's false doctrine.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom YOU yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The false teachers never showed you all the passages where the Lord said it was His will that none perish and that He wants all to be saved.

The catholics and the reformers are the modern day version of the sadducees and pharisees.
I hope you get out now while you still can. Your time is very short.

This is the second time you have misread what I wrote.

I am by no means advocating for election!

This is what I wrote:

"That's not how election works.

Mankind is simply living out their fate.

Mankind can neither obey or disobey God or Satan.

God decides who they will obey.

This is the lie of election."

Did you not notice the last line?

 

[Lamar]

Romans 4:4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Following the directions of God for the remission of sins is no more "works" then gazing upon the bronze serpent for healing from the snake bites.

Simply put, you are falsely accusing Christians of heresy.

I suspect you are unaware of the difference between following directions and works deserving merit. This seems to be at the core of your confusion.

A homeless person waiting in line for a free meal is not waiting in line to "earn" his meal, he is simply following directions in order to get his free meal.

If you truly cannot grasp the difference you are mentally blind.

 

[mailmandan]

Following the directions of God for the remission of sins is no more "works" then gazing upon the bronze serpent for healing from the snake bites.

Simply put, you are falsely accusing Christians of heresy.

I suspect you are unaware of the difference between following directions and works deserving merit. This seems to be at the core of your confusion.

A homeless person waiting in line for a free meal is not waiting in line to "earn" his meal, he is simply following directions in order to get his free meal.

If you truly cannot grasp the difference you are mentally blind.

Be sure not to disregard Romans 4:4-6. You seem to have your own personal definition of non meritorious works. That remains the core of your confusion.

 

[ScooterJackson]

This is the lie of election

Yes, that's the lie of the reformer's version of election

Following the directions of God for the remission of sins is no more "works" then gazing upon the bronze serpent for healing from the snake bites.

Simply put, you are falsely accusing Christians of heresy.

I suspect you are unaware of the difference between following directions and works deserving merit. This seems to be at the core of your confusion.

A homeless person waiting in line for a free meal is not waiting in line to "earn" his meal, he is simply following directions in order to get his free meal.

If you truly cannot grasp the difference you are mentally blind.

Good example. I might borrow that a few times

 

[Freed18]

I already proved otherwise.

Hardly.

The law may have been mentioned yet Abraham was still before the law of Moses. The promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Not faith and works.

Not faith and the works of the Mosaic Law.

Believing is not simply just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Through believing, we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption - Romans 3:22-26)

Believing is not a work of the Law, but it is something we have to do in order to be converted and saved.

Sinless perfection? (1 John 1:8-10)

Sinless obedience...(1 John 1:5, 7, 9, and 1 John 2:3-4)
Not to mention 1 John 3:9-10 and 1 John 5:18.

Baptism is a work of righteousness (Matthew 3:13-15) and we're not saved by works of righteousness which we have done. (Titus 3:5)

Peter and I disagree, as it is written..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us... by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 3:21)

Acts 2:38 needs to be read alongside (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) and notice where forgiveness of sins is explicitly tied to repentance/belief/faith and not water baptism.

You forgot, or purposely omitted, Acts 22:16..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

100% of the time? Back to sinless perfection?

Perfect obedience: something the damned despise.

Descriptive only of those who are born of God.

I am glad I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...at my baptism into Jesus' death, burial, amd resurrection. (Rom 6:2-7)

Loving our neighbor as ourself. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

You may include that along with water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, I suppose, as it is another work!

Who said anything about ommitting those things from the Christian life? Don't confuse how we become Christians with how Christians conduct their lives after becoming a Christian. You seem to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture, which suggests that you teach works salvation.

You did, as they are all works done to be saved on the day of judgement.
If they are not done, it is because of having no faith that they are commanded to be done by the Lord and His apostles.

 

[Freed18]

All born again Christians are a part of the Church/the body of Christ.

Which denominational or non-demominational church organization do you attend?

I attend the first one, "The Church By Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)".

 

[Freed18]

Freed18,
1. If you believe that you caused or contributed to your own salvation in any way as you seemed to say in your prior post and above, then as I explained to you, Jesus Christ isn't your complete Savior, you are. Instead, you should have recognized that Jesus Christ alone is THE Savior who saves completely.

Can a man be saved, without doing anything ?
No.
He has to hear and believe to even take the steps necessary for the remission of his sins, and to be reborn of God's perfect seed.

2. According to 1 John 1:8, if YOU say you have no sin, then you confirm that verse applies to you because you aren't walking in the light but in darkness, as demonstrated by you in "1" above.

1 John 1:8, and 1 John 1:6 are both addressing those who walk in darkness-sin.
They cannot honestly say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin.
Accoeding to 1 John 2:3-4, they can't even say that they know Him !
But those who have confesed their past sins and been washed of them by the blood of Christ, can honestly say they have fellowship with God and His Son, and that they have no sin.
If God is the light, and we are walking in Him, how can we have sin in/on us ?

 

[Freed18]

Those serious about being a Christian will walk in this:
1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

And they will take heed to these instructions and actually walk in them:
Ephesians 4:22-24 - put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 13:14 - put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Colossians 3:10 - And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of Him that created Him:

2 Corinthians 6:17 - come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

1 Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Titus 2:11,12 - For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world

These passages must not be in the reformers "bibles"

In order to sin a person has to turn away from Christ to do so and at that moment they are no longer in Christ because they have separated themselves from Him

Jude 1:17-19
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jude 1:17-19 is not talking to sinners out in the world, it's talking to Christians because those who have never been born again cannot separate themselves from the Holy Spirit since they have never been in union with Him to start with.

Amen to that.

The reformers claimed to be restoring Christianity back to what it originally was but they failed spectacularly in their efforts.

It does seem so.