Obedience REQUIRED

[OMC]

Any second repentance shows that the first one was a lie to God.
We can't build a relationship with God that is based on lies.

I would respectfully disagree, because genuine repentance is not a promise that one will never sin again but a real turning to God, and the fact that believers are repeatedly instructed to confess and repent when they sin (1 John 1:9; Rev. 2-3) shows that subsequent repentance is evidence of ongoing faithfulness, not proof that the first repentance was false.

That day passed on the day Christ was resurrected from the dead.
Since then, we have been able to be baptized into His death, burial, and resurrction, so we can walk in newness of life

I agree that Romans 6 teaches believers have been united with Christ in His death and resurrection to walk in newness of life, but the same apostles who taught that also continued to warn believers about sin, call them to ongoing repentance, and look forward to the final day when sin and death themselves are completely abolished (1 Cor. 15:24-26; 1 John 1:8-9; Rev. 21:4).

There are no 'levels of obedience'.
There is only obedience and disobedience

I agree that obedience and disobedience are distinct categories, but my point was that believers grow in conformity to Christ over time, and until glorification even sincere believers continue to battle sin and therefore remain dependent upon God's ongoing grace and forgiveness (Phil. 3:12-14; 1 John 1:8-9).

Have you ever read Gal 3:27 ?..."For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
How can one not be conformed to Christ if they have "put Him on" ?

I have read Galatians 3:27, and I agree that those baptized into Christ have "put on Christ," but Paul still exhorts those same believers to grow into Christ's likeness (Rom. 8:29; 2 Cor. 3:18), which shows that being united to Christ and being progressively conformed to Him are related realities rather than identical ones.

Instead of fighting sin, fight the temptation to sin.
It is written..."Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

I agree that James 4:7 commands us to resist the devil and temptation, but that is precisely what I mean by fighting sin, since the biblical battle against sin is fought at the level of temptation, desire, thought, and action before it bears fruit in disobedience (James 1:14-15; James 4:7).

 

[Freed18]

I agree that we can and should repent, obey, resist temptation, and pursue holiness, but Scripture distinguishes between what believers are commanded to do and what actually justifies a sinner before God, which Paul says is faith apart from works (Rom. 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9).

I agree that God does not justify those who remain in willful rebellion, and I agree that repentance, baptism, and perseverance are all taught in Scripture; where I differ is that Romans 4:5 says God justifies the ungodly who believe, meaning justification is granted to the sinner who comes to God in faith, not because he has first become righteous enough to merit it.
Repentance does not make a person an ex-sinner in the sense of becoming worthy of justification, because even after conversion believers still need Christ's advocacy when they sin (1 John 2:1).
Baptism is profoundly important, but the cleansing power is in Christ's blood, not in the act itself.
We both agree that believers must endure faithfully to the end; my point is simply that our endurance is the fruit of God's saving work, not the payment by which we secure our final acceptance before Him.
The sinner is justified because of Christ, and the justified sinner is then called to walk in obedience.

I agree that love-driven obedience and the warnings about perseverance belong together, but I would still distinguish between obeying because Christ is worthy and obeying in order to earn or maintain justification, since Scripture grounds justification in faith while calling the justified to endure in faithful obedience.

I agree that some people wrongly dismiss repentance, baptism, and obedience because they fear "works," but even if we limit Paul's immediate context to works of the Law, Paul still distinguishes between the obedience that flows from faith and the works by which a person attempts to establish his own righteousness before God (Rom. 3:20; 4:4-5; Phil. 3:9).

I agree that repentance and baptism are commanded responses to the gospel, but if obedience is the thing that receives justification because it earns God's acceptance, then justification is no longer being received by grace through faith but as something secured by human performance, which is the distinction Paul is addressing in Romans 4:4-5.

I agree that believers must actively persevere and that those who abandon Christ are warned of judgment, but I would say the "car" itself, the road, the fuel, and even our ability to steer are gifts of God's grace, so while our actions matter, salvation ultimately depends on God's saving work rather than our independent ability to keep ourselves saved (John 15:5; Phil. 2:12-13; Jude 24).

I agree that Scripture warns the unfaithful and calls believers to persevere, but Philippians 1:6 emphasizes God's faithfulness in completing His work, so the question is not whether true faith endures, but whether that endurance is ultimately grounded in God's preserving grace or in man's ability to remain faithful.

I agree that each person is accountable for his life and that God's gifts are sufficient for faithful obedience, but Scripture's tension remains because the same Bible that commands perseverance also says that justification is not by works and that our ultimate confidence rests in God's mercy and Christ's righteousness rather than in our own ability to stand innocent before Him (Rom. 4:5; Phil. 3:9; Titus 3:5).

The only works written against are the works of the Law.
Everything we do is to please God and neighbor.
Everything we do is for salvation, directly or indirectly.

 

[OMC]

Yes he does.

Had you gone down a few more verses, the Law is mentioned..."For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Rom 4:13)

Please name a general work that will not contribute to our salvation.
Believing ?
Turning permanently from sin ?
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins ?
Resisting temptation ?
Remaining faithful until the end of time ?
Going out of our way for a neighbor ?
Are you ready to omit any of these things from your life because they are non-Law works ?

oh wow, just got it. You are from the church of christ yes? Restoration Movement theology?

 

[Freed18]

I would respectfully disagree, because genuine repentance is not a promise that one will never sin again

If one turns from sin (repents from/of sin), he sould be a non-sinner from that point onward.

but a real turning to God, and the fact that believers are repeatedly instructed to confess and repent when they sin (1 John 1:9; Rev. 2-3) shows that subsequent repentance is evidence of ongoing faithfulness, not proof that the first repentance was false.

Only a real termination of sin will result in a faithfully lived life

I agree that Romans 6 teaches believers have been united with Christ in His death and resurrection to walk in newness of life, but the same apostles who taught that also continued to warn believers about sin, call them to ongoing repentance, and look forward to the final day when sin and death themselves are completely abolished (1 Cor. 15:24-26; 1 John 1:8-9; Rev. 21:4).

Those who took the warnings to heart will find their names in the book of life.
Those who didn't, will be lost.

I agree that obedience and disobedience are distinct categories, but my point was that believers grow in conformity to Christ over time, and until glorification even sincere believers continue to battle sin and therefore remain dependent upon God's ongoing grace and forgiveness (Phil. 3:12-14; 1 John 1:8-9).

We only battle temptaion, as we have left sin in the past at our repentance from sin.

I have read Galatians 3:27, and I agree that those baptized into Christ have "put on Christ," but Paul still exhorts those same believers to grow into Christ's likeness (Rom. 8:29; 2 Cor. 3:18), which shows that being united to Christ and being progressively conformed to Him are related realities rather than identical ones.

OK, point taken.
But being in Christ is impossible for those committing sin, as there is no sin in Christ.

I agree that James 4:7 commands us to resist the devil and temptation, but that is precisely what I mean by fighting sin, since the biblical battle against sin is fought at the level of temptation, desire, thought, and action before it bears fruit in disobedience (James 1:14-15; James 4:7).

Amen.
Your "fighting against sin" is my "fighting against committing sin".
And it will result in salvation.

 

[Freed18]

oh wow, just got it. You are from the church of christ yes? Restoration Movement theology?

I am of "The Church By Christ Jesus (Eph3:21)".
I am unfamiliar with a Restoration Movement.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes he does.

I already proved otherwise.

Had you gone down a few more verses, the Law is mentioned..."For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." (Rom 4:13)

The law may have been mentioned yet Abraham was still before the law of Moses. The promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Not faith and works.

Please name a general work that will not contribute to our salvation.
Believing?

Believing is not simply just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Through believing, we are trusting in Another's work (Christ's finished work of redemption - Romans 3:22-26)

Turning permanently from sin?

Sinless perfection? (1 John 1:8-10)

Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins?

Baptism is a work of righteousness (Matthew 3:13-15) and we're not saved by works of righteousness which we have done. (Titus 3:5)

Acts 2:38 needs to be read alongside (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) and notice where forgiveness of sins is explicitly tied to repentance/belief/faith and not water baptism.

Resisting temptation?

100% of the time? Back to sinless perfection?

Remaining faithful until the end of time?

Descriptive only of those who are born of God.

Going out of our way for a neighbor?

Loving our neighbor as ourself. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Are you ready to omit any of these things from your life because they are non-Law works?

Who said anything about ommitting those things from the Christian life? Don't confuse how we become Christians with how Christians conduct their lives after becoming a Christian. You seem to confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture, which suggests that you teach works salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

oh wow, just got it. You are from the church of christ yes? Restoration Movement theology?

The plan of salvation according to the church of Christ/Restoration Movement/Campbellism is believe, repent, confess, be baptized, remain faithful. Their plan of salvation culminates in salvation by faith and works.

 

[mailmandan]

I am of "The Church By Christ Jesus (Eph3:21)".
I am unfamiliar with a Restoration Movement.

All born again Christians are a part of the Church/the body of Christ.

Which denominational or non-demominational church organization do you attend?