Obedience REQUIRED

[Freed18]

Not if you teach salvation by works and sinless perfection.

With that comment I have to ask...are you teaching a "It was forced onto me" and "Sinfulness doesn't matter" doctrines ?
I don't teach any doctrine dependent on the Mosaic Law's works for conversion.
I teach that a man can obey God perfectly...thanks to God's gifts of repentance from sin and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins
And rebirth from God's seed, after the destruction of the old man/creature.

 

[Freed18]

Obedience is work. You believe in works righteousness. It's only your delusion that you're sinless that makes it plausible. Your obedience will not save you.

It seem that you prefer disobedience...(I hope I am reading that wrong).
Obedience is the natural fruit of rebirth from God's seed.
Those opposed to obedience to God and His Son, seem to be unregenerated.
And are still bearing the devil's fruit.

 

[mailmandan]

then why are works required?

Required for what according to Paul in Romans 4:4-6? Not required as the basis or means by which we obtain salvation./merit eternal life. Also see Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Good works glorify God. (Matthew 5:16) Good works are profitable to men. (Titus 3:8) We are created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

Jn 3:16 1 Jn 5:13 Perpetual faith
mt 3:8 2 cor 7:10 fruits of repentance
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit
Lk 1:75 acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness
mt 26:41 watch and pray
mk 24:48 watch and pray
Lk 21:36 Watch and pray, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive
Lk 9:23 phil 1:29 daily, deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.
ps 23:3 leads in paths (deeds) of righteousness acts 10:35
mt 7:14 narrow road that leads to life
2 pet 3:18 grow in grace
heb 6:12 faith & patience
heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
rev 2:19 faith, patience, & works
rev 14:12 commandments, patience, & faith
mt 19:17 Jn 14:21 1 cor 7:19 1Jn 3:24 1 Jn 5:2-3 rev 12:17 keep the commandments
eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
heb 6:15 after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

Instead of carpet bombing me with a landslide of verses (which demonstrates that you are not really interested in reasoning through the scriptures together) try discussing one or two verses at a time.

there are different kinds of works, dead works apart from Christ Jn 15:5 living works in Christ phil 4:13

Good works which are produced from faith that is alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-10) are works of righteousness (Titus 3:5) and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.

if works of righteousness are not required then we can sin all we want and die unrepentant and go winging off to heaven?

Straw man argument. Children of God practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) *As for works of righteousness, see Titus 3:5.

show me that in scripture!

Gal 6:7-8

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

In regard to Galatians 6:7-8, the one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt flesh, which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. (descriptive of unbelievers/make believers) Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. (descriptive of believers) See the contrast?

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

In Romans 8, Paul also sets up a contrast between those who live according to the flesh (unbelievers/make believers) and those who live according to the Spirit (believers). In verses 8-9, Paul clearly states - So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Again, see the contrast?

how can we avoid sin and remain in Christ on the narrow road without works?

How can you be in Christ on the narrow road and produce works without faith? Our best efforts to avoid sin and works are not what washes away our sins. Only the blood of Christ can do that. (Romans 3:24-26; Ephesians 1:7; Colossoans 1:14)

mt 26:41 watch and pray that you enter not into temptation

and sin separates us from God!

thks

Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Freed18]

Yes, absolutely, that is exactly what I'm saying

You should reread my post, as we are not in agreement.

- that we can do nothing to save ourselves - and that same condition applies to everyone who becomes saved and precisely what makes Jesus Christ alone the Savior and not man.

I obeyed the command to turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins...to become a Christian.
Before I did, I was not a Christian and had no hope of eternal life in heaven.

Ears to hear, belief, and everything else that accompanies salvation are given as a byproduct of salvation, they are not its cause.

That really makes no sense, as without belief no man can even start a walk in Christ/in the light.

Those who are dead in sin as natural man is, are unable to hear or believe, and are oblivious to the things of the Spirit as we are told in 1 Co 2:14.

I feel that you are misusing that verse.
Especially when it is written that some are accepting God at His word, and manifesting that belief by obeying God's commandements to become Christians.
1 John 1:9 is a perfect example of that..."If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Though confession and cleaning are both labors, they are not the works of the Law.
Are you opining that a man has salvation without his confession and cleaning ?

Jesus Christ our God and Savior, gives salvation freely to His children without any prerequisites, stipulations, requirements, or limitation whatsoever being imposed upon them, besides that they are His children. And that is what makes it a free gift from God's exceeding mercy and grace through Jesus Christ. Oddly enough, initially, many (most) do not want it on that basis - the old wine is better for a time, I guess.
I think what you're missing is that God does not give salvation on the basis of a judge who gives the gift contingent upon what man must produce to obtain it- not even to the slightest degree. Were that the case, then no man would be able to satisfy that requirement. Instead, God freely gives salvation to those His spiritual children from eternity past on the basis of a loving father (Poppa) giving to His children a wonderful gift- freely, without encumbrances, from/with/by His exceedingly great love through Jesus Christ. However, not all are His spiritual children.

God will give eternal life to those that obey Him.
Matt 7:21-23 comes to mind..."Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

It takes our own acceptance, to facilitate becoming children of God.
It is never forced on us.

I'll try to reply to the above tomorrow.

OK.

 

[Burn1986]

So you got an angry old guy starting a thread about works driven salvation. Hmm, I wonder if this train could run off the tracks, lol. How many pages has this thread gone?

 

[Freed18]

So you got an angry old guy starting a thread about works driven salvation. Hmm, I wonder if this train could run off the tracks, lol. How many pages has this thread gone?

How do you know he is old or angry ?
He seems to want people to obey his God.

 

[mailmandan]

Would that be the truth Jesus said could make us free from committing sin, in John 8:32-34 ?

Sinless perfection is not the truth. (1 John 1:8-10) Jesus uses the present active participle "practicing" or "doing" continually rather than the aorist participle which would mean a single, isolated act. This indicates a continuous lifestyle/ongoing practice of sin.

I agree that those bearing no fruit, or evil fruit, are not of God.

Amen! A good tree bears good fruit but a bad tree bears bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17)

But they had to believe and accept the free gift, and obey the ways and means of conversion, in order to start bearing fruit.
It isn't forced onto us.

Bad trees do not bear good fruit.

The only works written against by Paul were the works of the Law...circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, priesthoods, tithing, etc.

False. Not only those works of the law but works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Also keep in mind that when it comes to the moral aspect of the law you cannot dissect good works from the law (Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16) so your saved by "these" works and just not "those" works argument is bogus.

 

[Freed18]

Sinless perfection is not the truth. (1 John 1:8-10) Jesus uses the present active participle "practicing" or "doing" continually rather than the aorist participle which would mean a single, isolated act. This indicates a continuous lifestyle/ongoing practice of sin.

Using scrip's addressing those who walk in darkness-sin, don't apply to the people walking in the light-God.
Jesus said the truth would free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.

Amen! A good tree bears good fruit but a bad tree bears bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17)

Making all the self-professing sinners bad trees.

Bad trees do not bear good fruit.

That is right !
Only those who have turned permanently from sin can bear good fruit.

False. Not only those works of the law but works in general.

False, as hearing, believing, repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, must be done to even be converted to Christianity.

(Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Also keep in mind that when it comes to the moral aspect of the law you cannot dissect good works from the law

Yes they can.
The works Paul wrote against had nothing morally applicable to them.

(Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16) so your saved by "these" works and just not "those" works argument is bogus.

I cannot agree with doctrines that allow sin.
They come from bad trees.

 

[NightTwister]

we can't do it! yet we are required to do it?

Jn 3:16 1 Jn 5:13 Perpetual faith
mt 3:8 2 cor 7:10 fruits of repentance
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit
Lk 1:75 acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness
mt 26:41 watch and pray
mk 24:48 watch and pray
Lk 21:36 Watch and pray, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive
Lk 9:23 phil 1:29 daily, deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.
ps 23:3 leads in paths (deeds) of righteousness acts 10:35
mt 7:14 narrow road that leads to life
2 pet 3:18 grow in grace
heb 6:12 faith & patience
heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
rev 2:19 faith, patience, & works
rev 14:12 commandments, patience, & faith
mt 19:17 Jn 14:21 1 cor 7:19 1Jn 3:24 1 Jn 5:2-3 rev 12:17 keep the commandments
eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
heb 6:15 after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

how do you explain it?

Obedience is a result of salvation, not a means to obtain it or keep it.

 

[NightTwister]

It seem that you prefer disobedience...(I hope I am reading that wrong).
Obedience is the natural fruit of rebirth from God's seed.
Those opposed to obedience to God and His Son, seem to be unregenerated.
And are still bearing the devil's fruit.

Bearing false witness against your neighbor is a sin.

 

[rogerg]

You should reread my post, as we are not in agreement.

I know - I understood your point.

I obeyed the command to turn from sin and get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my past sins...to become a Christian.
Before I did, I was not a Christian and had no hope of eternal life in heaven.

Thanks, you just made my point (BTW, I didn't quote all of the relevant parts of your post above). As I explained to you previously, that by your post, you've clearly demonstrated you do not actually believe Jesus Christ is the full, complete, and sole, Savior. Anything you believe you must "do" to become saved, makes that "do" into a work regardless of how little or how great it might be - yet no one becomes saved by their works. Had you truly believed in Jesus Christ as Savior (as Scripture clearly tells us He is), you would trust that it is He who gives salvation freely through grace as a gift to His spiritual children, with them only the recipients of it, not contributors to it.
Since we've now established you don't truly believe in Christ as Savior, there's no need to continue further, at least until such time as you begin to see it differently, if you do.

 

[Gideon300]

Here is the verse:

Romans 4:4-6​

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

There is nothing in these 3 verses that can be used to accuse a Christian of attempting to "earn" their salvation by following the directions of God.

You are twisting Paul's warnings against works of merit with following God's directions and I suspect you are purposely doing this.

How about the words of Jesus Himself?

"Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

John 6:29 & 30.

 

[mailmandan]

Using scrip's addressing those who walk in darkness-sin, don't apply to the people walking in the light-God.
Jesus said the truth would free us from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.

Those who walk in darkness practice sin/lifestyle or bent of life. Those who walk in the light practice righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:7-10) The truth would set us free from the penalty and bondage of sin and those who have been set free no longer practice sin. This does not mean we are set free from the presence of sin in our sinful flesh and will never sin again at all. (1 John 1:8-10) We have not yet received our glorified bodies. Those who claim sinless perfection of the flesh are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness.

Making all the self-professing sinners bad trees.

Do you agree with Jesus? Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

That is right!
Only those who have turned permanently from sin can bear good fruit.

You are still hung up on sinless perfection and remain deceived. 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

False, as hearing, believing, repentance from sin, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, must be done to even be converted to Christianity.

False. Water baptism "follows" conversion. (Acts 10:43-47) We must first hear (Romans 10:17) before we can repent (change our mind) and believe/believe the gospel/place faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. *Notice the order. Mark 1:15 - “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the gospel.” *Notice the order. Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

You reverse the scriptural order of repent and believe then you redefine repent to mean sinless perfection. Your works based false gospel demands sinless perfection and water baptism as the basis or means of receiving eternal life. That's not faith in Christ but faith in self. Repentance is unto the remission in Acts 2:38 and baptism is parenthetical. Compare with Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. *What happened to baptism?
Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism? Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

Yes they can.

So, according to you, good works are to be dissected from the moral aspect of the law? Loving God and loving our neighbor as ourselves by providing our neighbor with food and clothing (James 2:15-16) does not involve good works? So, you disregard the moral aspect of the law in Leviticus 19:18 and Deuteronomy 6:5 and simply reduce the law merely to circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, feast keeping and tithing? You are thoroughly confused. Folks who teach salvation by works will typically try to turn "not saved by works" into not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but still saved by "those" works (good works) in order to get around multiple passages of scripture. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

The works Paul wrote against had nothing morally applicable to them.

So, when Abraham obeyed God by offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22, there was no moral decision to be made by Abraham when he obeyed God? (Romans 4:2-3) He was simply performing a work of the law even though Abraham was before the law? Also, works of righteousness (Titus 3:5 - literally, works done in righteousness) that we are not saved by have nothing to do with moral choices and only involve ceremonial laws? You need to rethink your flawed theology.

I cannot agree with doctrines that allow sin.
They come from bad trees.

1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. - bad trees.

 

[mailmandan]

Bearing false witness against your neighbor is a sin.

Yet he claims sinless perfection.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I feel you really should have ended with..."their works of the Law."
Those were the only 'works' Paul ever wrote against.

a work is a work is a work.

a pharisee tryign to earn salvation by works of the law

is no different than someone today trying to earn salvation by whatever work they are trying to merit salvation with

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

It certainly makes one a liar like the pharisees:
Proverbs 30:6 - Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and you be found a liar.

itstill does nto make one a pharsee

No, I'm not the one claiming salvation can be lost.
The Lord says that in His Word.

No. the lord does not say it.. But if you interpret him saying it. You are a modern day pharisee

My answer was no.

so you do not think salvation can be lost?

can you make up your mind please

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Obedience is a result of salvation, not a means to obtain it or keep it.

amen

we are not under law. but under grace

 

[ScooterJackson]

You are twisting Paul's warnings against works of merit with following God's directions and I suspect you are purposely doing this.

These people have to twist God's Word in order to protect their false doctrine

And not if you label following God's directions as works of merit.

In Acts 26:20, “works meet for repentance” means doing actions that fit (or are appropriate to) genuine repentance. The verse says repentance should include turning to God and then showing that change through your deeds.

It is an insult to God to suggest that we, having first
received salvation in Christ by faith, should 'keep' it by imagining that we merit the continued gift of God by our abilities.

It's an insult to the Lord to believe one can live after the flesh in sin and still be saved.
That's drinking of the cup of devils and as such it is being a worker of iniquity.

John 8:34,35 - Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Matthew 13:41,42 - The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Psalms 5:5 - The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity

According to the Word of the Lord a Christian can in fact disqualify themselves from being allowed to remain in God's Kingdom by walking after the flesh which is being a worker of iniquity

"Cannot cease from sin" refers to a state of being unable to stop sinning, as mentioned in 2 Peter 2:14. This verse describes individuals who are characterized by their persistent sinful behavior and their influence on others.

2 Peter 2:14
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

 

[ScooterJackson]

itstill does nto make one a pharsee

Sure it does, a modern day pharisee that adds to and takes away from God's Word just like the pharisees of old.

No. the lord does not say it

He actually does but the false teachers have indoctrinated many people to not accept all the Lord says.

so you do not think salvation can be lost?

You're confused. God's Word teaches salvation can in fact be lost and I did not oppose that Truth.

we can't do it! yet we are required to do it?

That's the dog chasing it's own tail of reformed theology

 

[ScooterJackson]

Those opposed to obedience to God and His Son, seem to be unregenerated.
And are still bearing the devil's fruit.

Many of these people actually did get born again but later they were taught false doctrine and backslide having allowed the things Jesus speaks of in Mark 4:13-20 to enter in and choke the Word of God out of them and they became unfruitful and are just religious minded people who have a form of godliness but deny the Power thereof.

It's always sad to see people get caught up in the false grace of the reformers. Luther rejected the Book of James after all since the Lord tells us through James that faith without corresponding action is not saving faith.

Jude 1:4 - For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.