Obedience REQUIRED

[Lamar]

Be sure not to disregard Romans 4:4-6. You seem to have your own personal definition of non meritorious works. That remains the core of your confusion.

Here is the verse:

Romans 4:4-6​

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

There is nothing in these 3 verses that can be used to accuse a Christian of attempting to "earn" their salvation by following the directions of God.

You are twisting Paul's warnings against works of merit with following God's directions and I suspect you are purposely doing this.

 

[mailmandan]

Hardly.

The truth is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT.

Not faith and the works of the Mosaic Law.

Not faith and works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titis 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

Believing is not a work of the Law, but it is something we have to do in order to be converted and saved.

Believing is not a work of the law or work in general that merits salvation. Through believing/faith we are trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption alone for salvation (Romans 3:22-26) and receive eternal life as a free gift. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Sinless obedience...(1 John 1:5, 7, 9, and 1 John 2:3-4)
Not to mention 1 John 3:9-10 and 1 John 5:18.

These verses do not teach sinless perfect obedience/sinless perfection. That is your eisegesis.

Peter and I disagree, as it is written..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us... by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 3:21)

Peter disagrees with you and in 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

So, by Peter saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony in H20. Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. You error by trying to turn a symbol into a savior.

You forgot, or purposely omitted, Acts 22:16..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

There was nothing to forgot and I did not purposely ommit it. I see that you like to cherry pick pet verses then ignore the rest. In Acts 22:16, the washing away of sins happens as he Paul called on the name of the Lord and not literally by the water itself. The water is symbolic; the appeal to Christ’s name is the saving act. Romans 10:13 - For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The remission of sins has three applications: 1. Literally, by the blood of Christ - Matthew 26:28 2. Experientially, by faith in Christ - Acts 26:18 3. Figuratively, by water baptism - Acts 22:16

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/03/acts-2216-baptism-essential-for.html?m=1

Perfect obedience: something the damned despise.

Something only Jesus Christ accomplished. (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:22) If you teach sinless perfection, then you are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1 John 1:8-10).

I am glad I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...at my baptism into Jesus' death, burial, amd resurrection. (Rom 6:2-7)

Spirit baptism is the reality and water baptism is the picture of the reality.

You may include that along with water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, I suppose, as it is another work!

We don't love in order to become children of God but BECAUSE we are children of God. (Romans 5:5; 1 John 4:7,8, 19)

You did, as they are all works done to be saved on the day of judgement.
If they are not done, it is because of having no faith that they are commanded to be done by the Lord and His apostles.

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Don't put the cart before the horse.

 

[Lamar]

No, some are very proudly proclaiming they are sinners and claim they sin every day all day claiming it's not possible to stop sinning and don't believe they should or have to confess and forsake their sin in order to be cleansed of un righteousness taught in Proverbs 28:13 and 1 John 1:9 and they take it even further claiming we can willing and knowingly live in sin and still be saved.

I have met and talked with people such as these and their rationale comes from people pushing Faith Alone Regeneration Theology.

They are simply taking the "alone" part to its natural conclusion.

 

[mailmandan]

I attend the first one, "The Church By Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)".

Not if you teach salvation by works and sinless perfection.

 

[Lamar]

Not if you teach salvation by works and sinless perfection.

And not if you label following God's directions as works of merit.

 

[mailmandan]

Here is the verse:

Which is crystal clear.

Romans 4:4-6​

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Where do you come up with salvation by works in those 3 verses? In Romans 4:5, Paul contrasts earning righteousness through works with having righteousness credited to us as a gift through faith. He explains that a person who does not rely on works but trusts God is accounted as righteous. This principle is illustrated by Abraham, whose faith in God’s promises was credited to him as righteousness in (Genesis 15:6), showing that being accounted as righteous is a matter of faith, not works. (Romans 4:2-6)

There is nothing in these 3 verses that can be used to accuse a Christian of attempting to "earn" their salvation by following the directions of God.

Christians do not attempt to "earn" their salvation by following the directions of God correctly. It's "nominal" Christians who attempt to earn or merit (at least in part) their salvation by following the directions of God incorrectly.

You are twisting Paul's warnings against works of merit with following God's directions and I suspect you are purposely doing this.

I'm not twisting anything and Paul's warnings against works salvation/works righteousness are crystal clear. It's you who is twisting Paul's warnings against works salvation/works righteousness in order for you to justify smuggling works into salvation through faith, not works. Let the boasting begin!

 

[mailmandan]

And not if you label following God's directions as works of merit.

You mix up God's directions on how to become saved with God's directions for believers after they have been saved. Through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, your plan of salvation culminates in salvation by faith AND WORKS no matter how much you try to sugar coat it.

 

[mailmandan]

I have met and talked with people such as these and their rationale comes from people pushing Faith Alone Regeneration Theology.

They are simply taking the "alone" part to its natural conclusion.

I see that you continue to attack faith alone regeneration theology which means that you continue to refuse to place your faith in JESUS CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION. (Romans 3:22-26; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[amazingrace]

False doctrine is often the result of cherry picking scripture to suit your pet beliefs. Why don't you quote this?

Romans 8:29 & 30

"....For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.…"

I can say rightly that Christ is my brother, I am justified and I am glorified. Do you know what justified means? It means that I am not condemned. And that has nothing to do with me. It is all mine in Christ, a gift, not a work.

"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

Eternal life is just that, eternal. The born again do not face the great white throne judgement. They face the "bema", which is where awards were handed out to athletes and war heroes. Some will have little or no reward. Others will be greatly rewarded.

Christians need to know who they are in Christ and who He is in us. This is not condoning sin. This is revealing to believers how they can overcome and live in a way that pleases God.​

If any man is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Galatians 2:20

as long as you continue in Christ! Jn 15:1-6

and endure to the end mk 13:13 mt 10:22 rev 2:10 overcome to gain the crown

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

thks

 

[Lamar]

I see that you continue to attack faith alone regeneration theology which means that you continue to refuse to place your faith in JESUS CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION. (Romans 3:22-26; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9)

You present four verses to defend your faith alone theology and are forced to shoe horn "alone" into every one of them.

Why not just present a verse that states what you believe?

Oh wait, you don't have one.

 

[mailmandan]

You present four verses to defend your faith alone theology and are forced to shoe horn "alone" into every one of them.

Four verses is enough to make my point and I can provide more verses, if you like. The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from additions or modifications". (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 15:7-9 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now you don't need to "add" the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of those passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation.

Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone.

Why not just present a verse that states what you believe?

Oh wait, you don't have one.

I have posted many verses that state what I believe. You just don't have eyes to see.

 

[Lamar]

Now you don't need to "add" the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of those passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation.

Tell that to the authors of the verses you are shoehorning your pet word into.

The authors could easily have added "alone" into their sentences. They most certainly don't need you adding to it.

 

[mailmandan]

Tell that to the authors of the verses you are shoehorning your pet word into.

The authors could easily have added "alone" into their sentences. They most certainly don't need you adding to it.

I don't need to shoehorn alone into salvation through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." I don't need to spell out the obvious. Faith (rightly understood) in Jesus Christ alone.

If I tell you that I'm going to give you $20 would you understand that I'm going to give you $20 alone or would you assume that I'm going to give you $20 + something else? Would I actually need to spell out $20 "alone" in order for you to figure out that you are getting $20 alone from me?

 

[pinebeach]

The authors could easily have added "alone" into their sentences. They most certainly don't need you adding to it.

Why would they? They, apparently understood what faith was without the embellishment of working for your salvation which, is anti-gospel and anti faith.

While we understand that faith will produce 'works' as per scripture, nowhere in scripture do the Apostles suggest working to keep salvation. They understood, and we understand, that Christ alone fulfilled all that was required by the Father. It is nonsense to suppose that we can keep the law any better than those who first received it . It is an insult to God to suggest that we, having first
received salvation in Christ by faith, should 'keep' it by imagining that we merit the continued gift of God by our abilities.

 

[NightTwister]

Hardly.

Not faith and the works of the Mosaic Law.

Believing is not a work of the Law, but it is something we have to do in order to be converted and saved.

Sinless obedience...(1 John 1:5, 7, 9, and 1 John 2:3-4)
Not to mention 1 John 3:9-10 and 1 John 5:18.

Peter and I disagree, as it is written..."The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us... by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" (1 Peter 3:21)

You forgot, or purposely omitted, Acts 22:16..."And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Perfect obedience: something the damned despise.

I am glad I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life...at my baptism into Jesus' death, burial, amd resurrection. (Rom 6:2-7)

You may include that along with water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, I suppose, as it is another work!

You did, as they are all works done to be saved on the day of judgement.
If they are not done, it is because of having no faith that they are commanded to be done by the Lord and His apostles.

Obedience is work. You believe in works righteousness. It's only your delusion that you're sinless that makes it plausible. Your obedience will not save you.

 

[Gideon300]

as long as you continue in Christ! Jn 15:1-6

and endure to the end mk 13:13 mt 10:22 rev 2:10 overcome to gain the crown

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

thks

You do not understand what it means to be saved. To be born again means to have eternal life. The clue is in the word "eternal". Oddly enough, it means eternal. It is the work of God that only He can undo. It is of God that we are in Christ Jesus.

There is a second aspect to salvation. It is the salvation of the soul. You will find this in Peter as the goal of our faith. James explains that the word of God saves our souls. It is a process of maturing in Christ.

Some take up their cross and lose their natural life in exchange for the life of Christ. Others are unwilling to change and do not allow the cross to do its work. Every believer needs to come to the place where God's will overrides self will.

The judgement of the lost depends on their works alone. They will be judged at the Great White Throne. The judgement of the believer takes place at the "Bema" of Christ. The Bema seat was a public platform for awarding prizes to athletes or military heroes and such. Some will receive great rewards from Lord Jesus because they allowed Him to lead them by His Spirit. Others will regret a wasted life because they chose to live for themselves instead of the Kingdom of God.

No one who is born again will be found in hell. No one who is born again can be "unborn" again.

Your concept of grace is not at all amazing. You make it dependent on the individual.​

 

[rogerg]

Can a man be saved, without doing anything ?
No.
He has to hear and believe to even take the steps necessary for the remission of his sins, and to be reborn of God's perfect seed.

Yes, absolutely, that is exactly what I'm saying - that we can do nothing to save ourselves - and that same condition applies to everyone who becomes saved and precisely what makes Jesus Christ alone the Savior and not man.
Ears to hear, belief, and everything else that accompanies salvation are given as a byproduct of salvation, they are not its cause. Those who are dead in sin as natural man is, are unable to hear or believe, and are oblivious to the things of the Spirit as we are told in 1 Co 2:14.
Jesus Christ our God and Savior, gives salvation freely to His children without any prerequisites, stipulations, requirements, or limitation whatsoever being imposed upon them, besides that they are His children. And that is what makes it a free gift from God's exceeding mercy and grace through Jesus Christ. Oddly enough, initially, many (most) do not want it on that basis - the old wine is better for a time, I guess.
I think what you're missing is that God does not give salvation on the basis of a judge who gives the gift contingent upon what man must produce to obtain it- not even to the slightest degree. Were that the case, then no man would be able to satisfy that requirement. Instead, God freely gives salvation to those His spiritual children from eternity past on the basis of a loving father (Poppa) giving to His children a wonderful gift- freely, without encumbrances, from/with/by His exceedingly great love through Jesus Christ. However, not all are His spiritual children.

1 John 1:8, and 1 John 1:6 are both addressing those who walk in darkness-sin.
They cannot honestly say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin.
Accoeding to 1 John 2:3-4, they can't even say that they know Him !
But those who have confesed their past sins and been washed of them by the blood of Christ, can honestly say they have fellowship with God and His Son, and that they have no sin.
If God is the light, and we are walking in Him, how can we have sin in/on us ?

I'll try to reply to the above tomorrow.

 

[amazingrace]

Keep working. You'll never get there.

Keep working. You'll never get there.

we can't do it! yet we are required to do it?

Jn 3:16 1 Jn 5:13 Perpetual faith
mt 3:8 2 cor 7:10 fruits of repentance
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit
Lk 1:75 acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness
mt 26:41 watch and pray
mk 24:48 watch and pray
Lk 21:36 Watch and pray, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive
Lk 9:23 phil 1:29 daily, deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.
ps 23:3 leads in paths (deeds) of righteousness acts 10:35
mt 7:14 narrow road that leads to life
2 pet 3:18 grow in grace
heb 6:12 faith & patience
heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
rev 2:19 faith, patience, & works
rev 14:12 commandments, patience, & faith
mt 19:17 Jn 14:21 1 cor 7:19 1Jn 3:24 1 Jn 5:2-3 rev 12:17 keep the commandments
eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
heb 6:15 after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

how do you explain it?

 

[amazingrace]

Romans 4:4 - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

then why are works required?

Jn 3:16 1 Jn 5:13 Perpetual faith
mt 3:8 2 cor 7:10 fruits of repentance
Jn 15:4 abide in Christ & bear fruit
Lk 3:9 bear fruit
Lk 1:75 acts 10:35 deeds of righteousness
phil 1:11 fruits of righteousness
mt 26:41 watch and pray
mk 24:48 watch and pray
Lk 21:36 Watch and pray, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive
Lk 9:23 phil 1:29 daily, deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me.
ps 23:3 leads in paths (deeds) of righteousness acts 10:35
mt 7:14 narrow road that leads to life
2 pet 3:18 grow in grace
heb 6:12 faith & patience
heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
rev 2:19 faith, patience, & works
rev 14:12 commandments, patience, & faith
mt 19:17 Jn 14:21 1 cor 7:19 1Jn 3:24 1 Jn 5:2-3 rev 12:17 keep the commandments
eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
mt 10:22 mk 13:13 mt 24:13 endure to the end in patient suffering
heb 6:15 after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
rev 2:10 he who overcomes I shall give the crown of life!

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
(eternal salvation)

there are different kinds of works, dead works apart from Christ Jn 15:5 living works in Christ phil 4:13

if works of righteousness are not required then we can sin all we want and die unrepentant and go winging off to heaven?

show me that in scripture!

Gal 6:7-8

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

how can we avoid sin and remain in Christ on the narrow road without works?

mt 26:41 watch and pray that you enter not into temptation

and sin separates us from God!

thks