see post 1757@brightfame52 , what's with the crickets?
Did you post all of those verses without understanding what they were saying or what they meant entirely?
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see post 1757@brightfame52 , what's with the crickets?
Did you post all of those verses without understanding what they were saying or what they meant entirely?
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see post 1757
There were more than two points I presented.I already did and I made two posts following that one. Did you not understand what they said?
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There were more than two points I presented.
Like you dont address all my pointsThat didn't really answer my question.
Like you dont address all my points
You are evading what I posted already.I think you're trying to evade my question.
You are evading what I posted already.
Actually you have no idea what you reading of my post.you have absolutely no idea what you're reading or posting.
Actually you have no idea what you reading of my post.
No you havent, you are totally in the darkI've already explained it to you.
No you havent, you are totally in the dark
The Fallacy of Two Peoples: Why Christ’s Resurrection Demolishes Dispensational Timelines
To anyone holding to a dispensational or premillennial framework: Your system splits the people of God into two separate categories—earthly Israel and the New Testament Church—complete with separate timelines, separate promises, and multiple physical resurrections. By doing this, you do not realize that you are slicing the singular, organic Body of Christ in half and creating a monstrous theology with one Head and two separate bodies.
A head cannot have two separate, fragmented bodies. There is only one Head and therefore one Harvest.
Revelation1v8,No, we see the two different "peoples" still being divided by people like you who refuse to accept the fact that Israel and the Children of the Promise will be brought back into the New Covenant. Paul lays it out for you.
Paul told you here:
Romans 11:7-12
Let's grant for the sake of discussion that “all Israel” here refers to a widespread conversion of ethnic Jews. How would that establish two separate peoples of God? They would still have to be saved through the same Deliverer, the same covenant mercy, and the same removal of sins through Christ. Paul does not say that Jewish believers will form a second Body of Christ or receive salvation through a separate covenant.“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.”
Notice Paul's picture: one olive tree. Gentile believers are grafted into it; they do not receive an independent tree with a separate root and separate saving promises. Paul's imagery emphasizes absolute continuity in God's saving purpose, even while distinguishing believing Gentiles, believing Jews, and unbelieving branches. There are not two trees. There are not two peoples. There is only one tree, one root, and one sap.“And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree.” —Romans 11:17
"And so all Israel shall be saved: Meaning not the text of national Israel... but the mystical, spiritual Israel of God, consisting of both Jews and Gentiles... when the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in, and the elect of the Jews are converted, then the whole body of God's elect will be saved."
God promised a New Covenant in which He would write His law in the hearts of His people and forgive their sins. This is the exact mechanical execution of Phase III (The Vital Phase: Regeneration). But where does Jeremiah say that Gentile believers in Christ are excluded from this covenant?“I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
And Paul says of believing Gentiles:“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” —Matthew 26:28
That is the point you must address. Paul does not describe Gentiles as receiving a lesser salvation or belonging to a separate covenant body. He calls them fellowheirs, of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ. If the New Covenant belongs to a future, earthly ethnic nation separate from the Church, then the Church has no covenant, no blood of Christ, and no law written on her heart!“That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” —Ephesians 3:6
Then he applies Hosea's prophecy:“Not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.”
Paul applies this prophetic language to God's calling of both Jews and Gentiles. Hosea originally spoke of God casting off unfaithful, ethnic Israel (Lo-Ammi = "not my people"). Paul takes that exact language and says it is fulfilled when the Gentiles are called by Grace via the Effectual Call (Phase III).“I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.”
“Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God.” —1 Peter 2:10
He distinguishes physical descent (Israel after the flesh, 1 Cor 10:18) from the people identified according to God's promise and calling (Israel after the Spirit). He also says:“For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.” —Romans 9:6
The remnant is not saved by a separate covenant or a different Messiah. It is saved according to grace. So even if you understand Romans 11 as promising a future large-scale turning of ethnic Jews to Christ, that would mean Jews being brought to the same Savior—not the establishment of a second Body alongside Christ's Church.“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” —Romans 11:5
And that He might:“Hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us.” —Ephesians 2:14
Then:“Make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.” —Ephesians 2:15
This is not my terminology being imposed on Scripture. Paul explicitly says both are made one, one new man, and reconciled in one body. The cross (Phase II: The Legal Phase) does not establish two redeemed bodies with separate saving destinies. It reconciles believing Jews and Gentiles to God in one body. That is why I reject the claim that the Church is a separate people with a separate saving inheritance from God's covenant people Israel.“That he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross.” —Ephesians 2:16
Revelation1v8,
You are quoting Romans 11 and Jeremiah 31 as though they prove two distinct covenant peoples, but neither passage says that Israel and the Church have separate saving inheritances in Christ. You are relying on modernized, paraphrased translations that strip these texts of their exact covenantal keywords to prop up a fractured dispensational timeline.
I do not deny that God has not cast away His people, that a remnant is according to the election of grace, or that God is able to bring unbelieving Jews to faith in Christ. The question is whether that means Israel and the Church remain two separate peoples of God, with distinct covenant identities and promises. Paul's teaching about the New Covenant and the inclusion of the Gentiles points in the opposite direction.
Let’s apply strict covenantal math and see how your own texts dismantle your dispensational timeline:
1. Romans 11 does not teach two separate bodies
You quote Romans 11:25–27:
Let's grant for the sake of discussion that “all Israel” here refers to a widespread conversion of ethnic Jews. How would that establish two separate peoples of God? They would still have to be saved through the same Deliverer, the same covenant mercy, and the same removal of sins through Christ. Paul does not say that Jewish believers will form a second Body of Christ or receive salvation through a separate covenant.
Indeed, Paul warns Gentile believers against boasting over the Jewish branches because they share in the same olive tree.
Notice Paul's picture: one olive tree. Gentile believers are grafted into it; they do not receive an independent tree with a separate root and separate saving promises. Paul's imagery emphasizes absolute continuity in God's saving purpose, even while distinguishing believing Gentiles, believing Jews, and unbelieving branches. There are not two trees. There are not two peoples. There is only one tree, one root, and one sap.
The great High-Calvinist theologian John Gill masterfully notes in his commentary on Romans 11:26 that this unified body is the true definition of "All Israel":
2. The New Covenant creates one people who know God
You quote Jeremiah 31:33:
God promised a New Covenant in which He would write His law in the hearts of His people and forgive their sins. This is the exact mechanical execution of Phase III (The Vital Phase: Regeneration). But where does Jeremiah say that Gentile believers in Christ are excluded from this covenant?
The New Testament explicitly applies these exact New Covenant promises to Christ's international people. Christ says:
And Paul says of believing Gentiles:
That is the point you must address. Paul does not describe Gentiles as receiving a lesser salvation or belonging to a separate covenant body. He calls them fellowheirs, of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ. If the New Covenant belongs to a future, earthly ethnic nation separate from the Church, then the Church has no covenant, no blood of Christ, and no law written on her heart!
John Gill explicitly exposes this error in his exposition of Jeremiah 31:31, proving that the target of the covenant designs the whole elect of God, both Jews and Gentiles, who are made one spiritual house under Christ.
3. Paul already explains how people who were not God's people become His people
Consider Romans 9:24–26. Paul says God called His people:
Then he applies Hosea's prophecy:
Paul applies this prophetic language to God's calling of both Jews and Gentiles. Hosea originally spoke of God casting off unfaithful, ethnic Israel (Lo-Ammi = "not my people"). Paul takes that exact language and says it is fulfilled when the Gentiles are called by Grace via the Effectual Call (Phase III).
The New Covenant promise, “I will be their God, and they shall be my people,” is not a basis for excluding Gentile believers. The apostle demonstrates that God's saving purpose reaches people who formerly were not called His people. As Peter says to international believers:
4. Jeremiah's promise of Israel's preservation does not prove two bodies
You quote Jeremiah 31:35–37, where God compares the continuance of Israel with the enduring order of creation. I do not deny God's faithfulness to His promises, nor do I deny that ethnic Israel has a real historical identity. But God's faithfulness to Israel does not establish that Israel and the Church must remain two separate covenant bodies.
Paul has already shattered the idea that physical lineage automatically equals covenant membership:
He distinguishes physical descent (Israel after the flesh, 1 Cor 10:18) from the people identified according to God's promise and calling (Israel after the Spirit). He also says:
The remnant is not saved by a separate covenant or a different Messiah. It is saved according to grace. So even if you understand Romans 11 as promising a future large-scale turning of ethnic Jews to Christ, that would mean Jews being brought to the same Savior—not the establishment of a second Body alongside Christ's Church.
5. Ephesians 2 directly addresses the division you are defending
Paul says Christ:
And that He might:
Then:
This is not my terminology being imposed on Scripture. Paul explicitly says both are made one, one new man, and reconciled in one body. The cross (Phase II: The Legal Phase) does not establish two redeemed bodies with separate saving destinies. It reconciles believing Jews and Gentiles to God in one body. That is why I reject the claim that the Church is a separate people with a separate saving inheritance from God's covenant people Israel.
The Bottom Line
I am not arguing that every ethnic Israelite is automatically saved, or that ethnic Israel has no continuing historical significance. I am arguing that God's saving purpose culminates in Christ, and that believing Jews and Gentiles share in one redeemed people.
One Deliverer. One saving covenant in Christ. One Body. One inheritance for all who belong to Him.
- Romans 11 teaches God's faithfulness, the election of grace, and the expectation of Jewish conversion.
- Jeremiah 31 teaches the New Covenant promise.
- Ephesians 2–3 explains the unity of believing Jews and Gentiles under Christ.
If you believe Romans 11 establishes two distinct covenant peoples, show me the single verse where Paul says that those Jews who come to Christ will belong to a separate body rather than being joined to the one people of God in Christ. You cannot, because the grammar and the covenant have spoken.
Revelation1v8, I understand who the one Head is. The question is whether you recognize what Scripture says about His Body.Personally, I'm not sure you understand who the ONE HEAD is.
Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
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There is only one true God. But how does that verse refute my statement that Christ has one Body rather than two separate, fragmented bodies?“Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”
Notice what Paul says: Christ is the Head, and the Church is His Body.“And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
—Colossians 1:18
Paul does not describe Christ as having one Body for Israel and another Body for the Church.“To be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”
And:“For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us.”
There is the very point I am making: both reconciled to God in one Body through the cross.“That he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross.”
And:“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free.”
—1 Corinthians 12:13
One Body. One Spirit. One hope. One Lord.“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism.”
—Ephesians 4:4–5
So I ask you again: if Christ is the Head of His Church, and believing Jews and Gentiles are reconciled in one Body, where does Scripture teach that God has two separate redeemed bodies under Christ—one earthly and one heavenly—with separate saving inheritances?
Isaiah 44:6 establishes that there is one God. Colossians 1:18 and Ephesians 1:22–23 establish that Christ is the Head of the Church. Ephesians 2:14–16 establishes that believing Jews and Gentiles are reconciled in one Body.
My argument is not merely that there is one Head. It is that Scripture explicitly identifies one Body belonging to that Head.