Their hatred of the Jew cannot let that happen in their minds. They are fine with a God that forgives their sins, a God that forgives sinners sins, but not a God that forgives the Jew. That's why they rip out half the Bible and deny it up and down. Their god doesn't forgive Jews, specifically Zionists.
Replacement theology? Yes or No.
- Thread starter Gideon300
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Their hatred of the Jew cannot let that happen in their minds. They are fine with a God that forgives their sins, a God that forgives sinners sins, but not a God that forgives the Jew. That's why they rip out half the Bible and deny it up and down. Their god doesn't forgive Jews, specifically Zionists.
No I just don't have a reason to believe it is a future event that has not yet happened to the children of Israel.
The origin of the Christian church began with Jews/Israel. The church has always been true Israel in Christ from it's beginning and continues to be that way today but with the inclusion of gentiles. It is the same with the concept of the bride of Christ and the body of Christ. The bride and body started with Jews/Israel. Gentiles that accept Christ become part/are grafted into these concepts and become part of the Church, part of the bride, part of the body and part of the great olive tree which has many of the natural Jewish branches since the ministry of Christ and beyond.
No one replaced anyone else. Some bad branches were removed, some good new branches were added. Replacement theology is false. Removal theology is true.
No one replaced anyone else. Some bad branches were removed, some good new branches were added. Replacement theology is false. Removal theology is true.
How do they arrive to there theology simple follow the crumbs.
Jesus was murdered.....
The crucifixion was a abomination
Peter address in acts was to all nations
70 ad was the desolation for the murder of Christ
Jesus rules the nations from heaven in Revelation.
Satan was bound at Calvary.
The great tribulation started in 70 ad.
Third temple a fantasy.
God divorced Israel and is through with them.
Israel broke a forever covenant
Modern Israel was politically made.
These and many more are some of the come backs that champion this false belief. To follow this man made theology we must first tear out many scriptures of our bibles and discard them.
I have listen to both sides of this debate on and off this site. I search and ask how did one arrive to this conclusion.
Not only does one disregard scripture but refuses to see right before there eyes Gods will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
I pray that as Revelation continues to unfold in this dark and unprecedented time the light of truth comes to the well meaning but very misguided people here.
Jesus was murdered.....
The crucifixion was a abomination
Peter address in acts was to all nations
70 ad was the desolation for the murder of Christ
Jesus rules the nations from heaven in Revelation.
Satan was bound at Calvary.
The great tribulation started in 70 ad.
Third temple a fantasy.
God divorced Israel and is through with them.
Israel broke a forever covenant
Modern Israel was politically made.
These and many more are some of the come backs that champion this false belief. To follow this man made theology we must first tear out many scriptures of our bibles and discard them.
I have listen to both sides of this debate on and off this site. I search and ask how did one arrive to this conclusion.
Not only does one disregard scripture but refuses to see right before there eyes Gods will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
I pray that as Revelation continues to unfold in this dark and unprecedented time the light of truth comes to the well meaning but very misguided people here.
Here's why I have every reason to believe that these are future events:
Isaiah 32:13-17
13 For your lands will thrive with thorns and briars; your joyous homes and happy cities will be gone. 14 Palaces and mansions will all be deserted, the crowded cities empty. Wild herds of donkeys and goats will graze upon the mountains where the watchtowers are, 15 until at last the Spirit is poured down on us from heaven. Then once again enormous crops will come. 16 Then justice will rule through all the land, 17 and out of justice, peace. Quietness and confidence will reign forever more.
Ezekiel 36:25-32
25 "Then it will be as though I had sprinkled clean water on you, for you will be clean—your filthiness will be washed away, your idol worship gone. 26 And I will give you a new heart—I will give you new and right desires—and put a new spirit within you. I will take out your stony hearts of sin and give you new hearts of love. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you so that you will obey my laws and do whatever I command."
28 "And you shall live in Israel, the land which I gave your fathers long ago. And you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 I will cleanse away your sins. I will abolish crop failures and famine. 30 I will give you huge harvests from your fruit trees and fields, and never again will the surrounding nations be able to scoff at your land for its famines. 31 Then you will remember your past sins and loathe yourselves for all the evils you did. 32 But always remember this: It is not for your own sakes that I will do this, but for mine. O my people Israel, be utterly ashamed of all that you have done!’”
So, you don't believe Jesus will return to Jerusalem to pour out His Spirit one more time on Israel?
Here's some suggested reading of why God/Jesus returns to Jerusalem to set up an earthly Millennial Kingdom. Click Here.
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Maybe it would help to know WHY God has used dispensations throughout the Bible and history (using A.I. to give as much understandable detail as possible.):
1. The Overarching Purpose: The Glory of God
This is the foundational "why" behind everything. Dispensational soteriology focuses on man's salvation as the means God uses to glorify Himself — salvation is not the ultimate goal but one expression of it.The dispensations are the mechanism by which God displays His attributes — justice, patience, holiness, mercy, sovereignty — to both humanity and the angelic realm. Ephesians 3:9–10 is the key text: God's purpose is "that now unto the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places might be made known through the church the manifold wisdom of God." The progressive unfolding of the dispensations is how that wisdom is made known.
2. To Demonstrate the Utter Depravity of Natural Man
This is perhaps the most theologically significant reason. Each dispensation is a new test of the natural man under a different condition, and in every single case, man fails. The pattern is:- Innocence (Eden) → Man fails under the simplest possible test
- Conscience (Post-Fall to Flood) → Man fails when left to his own moral sense
- Human Government (Post-Flood to Abraham) → Man fails even with civil order and capital punishment
- Promise (Abraham to Moses) → Man fails despite God's direct personal promises
- Law (Moses to Christ) → Man fails under the most explicit, detailed legal code ever given
- Grace (Church Age) → The current test, which will also end in failure (apostasy)
- Millennial Kingdom (Future) → Satan's final test, which will also fail
As one dispensationalist puts it: the dispensations reveal that "the problem is not in God's Law, but in man's heart. Each age demonstrates that human effort, no matter how enlightened or well-intentioned, cannot reconcile man to God."
3. To Magnify the Grace of God
The flip side of demonstrating man's failure is magnifying God's grace. If man could be saved by innocence, conscience, government, promise, or law, then grace would be unnecessary. But because man fails in every dispensation, the only remaining option is God's unmerited favor.Each transition from one dispensation to the next is an act of grace: God could have destroyed all mankind at the Fall, at the Flood, at Babel, or at Sinai. Instead, He provides a new beginning. The pattern is:
The judgment is real and necessary (it demonstrates God's justice), but it is always followed by a new administration of grace. This makes grace not an afterthought but the driving force of redemptive history.
4. To Demonstrate God's Sovereignty
The successive dispensations glorify God by showing He is the sovereign Ruler throughout history despite Satan's rebellion and man's resistance. The fact that God can hold man accountable under different standards, judge him for failure, and still move forward according to His own timetable demonstrates that no power — not sin, not death, not Satan — can derail His purposes.God is the householder; the world is His household. He is "dispensing or administering its affairs according to His own will and in various stages of revelation in the process of time" (Ryrie). The dispensations are the evidence that the house is being managed by a sovereign Lord, not left to chaos.
5. Progressive Revelation
Each new dispensation requires new revelation. God must reveal His new way of ruling and man's new responsibility before the test begins. This means Scripture is not a single static document but a progressively unfolding disclosure of God's mind:- God reveals more of Himself in each age
- The deposit of truth is cumulative, not replaced — earlier revelation is not discarded but supplemented
- The Church Age reveals things "which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men" (Eph 3:5) — the mystery of the Body of Christ
- This progressive unfolding is what makes the Bible a narrative rather than a mere rulebook
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(Continued) @Beekeeper
6. To Fulfill Distinct Covenants with Distinct Parties
The dispensations also serve to keep God's covenantal commitments distinct and intact. The Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and New Covenants each have specific parties and specific promises. The dispensational structure ensures that:- God's promises to national Israel (land, throne, temple) are not swallowed up by the Church
- The Church's unique identity as the Body of Christ is not reduced to "spiritual Israel"
- God's faithfulness to His word is demonstrated by fulfilling each promise to its intended party
7. To Provide a Framework for Human Responsibility
From a practical standpoint, dispensations give believers a way to orient themselves to God's will for their specific time in history. The revelation operative in the Church Age is different from that operative under the Mosaic Law. Knowing which dispensation you're in determines:- What moral and ceremonial obligations apply
- What your eschatological hope is
- How to interpret prophecy
- How to understand the relationship between Israel and the Church
Summary
- Glory of God — His manifold wisdom displayed to men and angels
- Human depravity — No natural man can be righteous under any test
- Magnification of grace — Salvation is exclusively by God's unmerited favor
- Divine sovereignty — No power can derail God's plan
- Progressive revelation — God progressively discloses His mind
- Covenant faithfulness — God keeps His promises to their intended parties
- Human responsibility — Each generation knows God's standard for its time
The unifying thread: God is not arbitrary or capricious in changing His methods. Each change is a response to human failure and a new act of grace, all directed toward the single ultimate end — the display of His glory through the redemption of His people and the consummation of His kingdom.
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Well if you did not see it all that way we probably never would have had all these conversations.
You are very keen on your conclusions to be able to skip so much history though.
If this was not such an emotive and divisive debate we probably would not have been driven to go through so much of the Bible with the same attention.
When debating with another person there are some traps we can fall into if we are not careful, like assuming that one is right and the other wrong without considering the third possibility that we are both wrong,
I was recently reading through Mathew Henry's commentary on Zechariah 13, and noticed that he has no consideration that the chapter could ever become a matter of controversy or division.
I don't think either of our approaches to it had ever even entered into his mind.
I remember how we dealt with the fact that there are references both to Jesus and to living under the law, apparently set in the same time.
You framed it into the millennial kingdom, giving a literal approach both to the presence of Christ and to dealing with false prophets Deuteronomy 13:6-11 style.
I framed it into the time before Christ on the basis of this mosaic reference, assuming the references to Christ as language pointing beyond that time.
Mathew Henry jumps immediately into the time of Jesus ministry, expanding on the power of the gospel to remove idolatry and false prophets from the Hebrew believers.
He offers no explanation as to why he is interpreting mosaic references into a new covenant framework, he just assumes that it is the done thing that anyone who knows the Bible would understand.
The Mosaic covenant is about types and shadows all pointing to New Covenant concepts, therefore when OT prophets speak of NT times in the terms understood by the old Hebrews, Mathew Henry simple translates the concepts into their NT significance.
This type of approach might clash with the preaching and commentary writing of our time, but I can not help being impressed by the depth of thought that these old-timers had.
What impresses me about the older commentators is not that they never made mistakes, but that they tended to have an extraordinary grasp of the unity of Scripture.
They were often less interested in constructing a detailed prophetic timeline and more interested in tracing how the Law, the Prophets, the Psalms, the Gospels, and the Epistles fit together as one unfolding revelation centered on Christ.
Whether one ultimately agrees with Henry's handling of Zechariah 13 or not, it is hard not to admire the confidence with which he saw the whole Bible as telling a single story.
@Beekeeper and @OMC
Throwing a large detailed portion of the Old Testament away is NOT the unity of scripture as it has been written.
The Old Testament is centered around God. The New Testament is centered around Jesus, yet they are ONE.
I'm not sure why some people have such a hard time grasping this fact.
Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
The Bible isn't a single story. It's a very detailed history of the dispensations that God/Jesus has used to bring people to Him, as I showed you earlier.
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Throwing a large detailed portion of the Old Testament away is NOT the unity of scripture as it has been written.
The Old Testament is centered around God. The New Testament is centered around Jesus, yet they are ONE.
I'm not sure why some people have such a hard time grasping this fact.
Isaiah 44:6 - Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
The Bible isn't a single story. It's a very detailed history of the dispensations that God/Jesus has used to bring people to Him, as I showed you earlier.
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As for Matthew Henry, people are most likely to believe what they have been taught. I had to teach myself because the churches I have belonged to over the many years never covered this specific topic.
Some people see the physical aspect of the Bible, some see the Spiritual, and then there are people like me who recognize BOTH as the reality in which God/Jesus intended it to be.
We are all made one in Jesus Christ spiritually at this current time. We will all be made one in God/Jesus physically and literally after He is through with His dispensations and then shuts it all down including worldly governments, Satan, Hell, and Death. Once all of that happens, we can all FINALLY live together in peace in Heaven, just like the Bible lays it out for us.
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You do not come across as being entirely self taught though.
You have referred to a lot of ai references in the time I have known you.
In Matt's time dispensationalist futurism was not known.
He did not throw away any part of the OT, he just did not consider interpreting it into that framework, because Christ was his focus and modern Israel did not exist or enter his mind.
You on the other hand take us through the books of prophesy creatively modeling a future for modern Israel.
If I was to suggest that modern Israel was not the motivation or theme of the OT prophesies that you present you would probably think I needed to be corrected.
I use A.I. references to pull scripture together and to create a level of communication that is thorough, where I might not be as thorough in my own personal explanations. I was self taught long before A.I. became a thing. Most of what I learned was from reading the scriptures and having these exact kinds of conversations with people on other discussion platforms for the last 17 - 18 years.
Again, you think EVERYTHING revolves around Jesus instead of looking at Jesus as the God that He IS, WAS, AND IS TO COME like He said in Revelation 1:8. You can't keep trying to separate Jesus from His Father. They exist TOGETHER as ONE. That what Jesus Himself tells you below:
Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Once you're able to grasp that, reading the Bible might might come a little bit easier for you.
The idea you have in your head that I'm trying to model a future for modern Israel is just faulty thinking on your part. The Bible lays it out for you. We don't even know when God/Jesus is going to return and what stage He's going to start revealing Himself to the people of Israel. Most likely, based on scripture, around the time of the Ezekiel 39 war. God/Jesus himself will show them a supernatural form of protection. Once that happens, they'll slowly start coming around. As the war of Armageddon happens and God/Jesus returns himself to put an end to it, they'll know even more. Just like the dispensation narrative I shared with you shows you how God/Jesus works in stages to make Himself known to people.
In case you haven't noticed, civilization on earth as a whole keeps getting worse. It's not going to get better no matter what nation you live in. Corruption is currently at an all time high for everyone based on the times we are living in.
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They excel at plucking verses out of context and not employing any hermeneutics to understand the text.
Salvation has always been and will continue to be, on an individual basis not by nation or ethnicity.
They dodge questions about the current nation of Israel's actions just like the Islamists do when questioned about the actions of certain terrorist groups. It's the same spirit, really. The end result of which is permission to kill the opposition.