Lentils

[Seeker47]

Once in a while we encounter passages in the bible that are a little odd; out of place. We know the bible is inspired. When we encounter these oddities, we should pay special attention.

This is true in Genesis 25, when Jacob prepares lentil soup and gives some to Esau.

The Shemites of Abrahams era followed a mourning custom called Shiva. Shiva is a seven-day period of mourning calling for prayer, humility and rest. There were also special foods eaten that remind the mourners of the circular pattern of life. Eggs and lentils, both having round shapes, were traditional.

The mourners, immediate family of the deceased, were prohibited from any work during Shiva, including cooking. This prohibition did not include grandchildren. Since Abraham had just died, his grandchildren could prepare the food for Isaac and Rebecca during their Shiva.

Jacob was following the cultural tradition by supporting his parents, Esau was not. Esau chose instead to follow his own passion for hunting. (We must note the only other named hunter in the bible was Nimrod, who tried to take God’s rightful place in heaven). These events clearly establish God’s motives in choosing Jacob as the righteous inheritor of Abrahams covenant, not the elder Esau. We are here reminded that our God is not arbitrary, but deliberate.

 

[enril]

Once in a while we encounter passages in the bible that are a little odd; out of place. We know the bible is inspired. When we encounter these oddities, we should pay special attention.

This is true in Genesis 25, when Jacob prepares lentil soup and gives some to Esau.

The Shemites of Abrahams era followed a mourning custom called Shiva. Shiva is a seven-day period of mourning calling for prayer, humility and rest. There were also special foods eaten that remind the mourners of the circular pattern of life. Eggs and lentils, both having round shapes, were traditional.

The mourners, immediate family of the deceased, were prohibited from any work during Shiva, including cooking. This prohibition did not include grandchildren. Since Abraham had just died, his grandchildren could prepare the food for Isaac and Rebecca during their Shiva.

Jacob was following the cultural tradition by supporting his parents, Esau was not. Esau chose instead to follow his own passion for hunting. (We must note the only other named hunter in the bible was Nimrod, who tried to take God’s rightful place in heaven). These events clearly establish God’s motives in choosing Jacob as the righteous inheritor of Abrahams covenant, not the elder Esau. We are here reminded that our God is not arbitrary, but deliberate.

Well, IDK about that, but lentils are one of the best foods for broke young people.
Although I would love to hear where your information about nimrod is found, as I read about him once, but couldn't find anything later. It was a good story, but as I told someone about it they told me where to look and the Bible basically just says he was a hunter?

 

[Seeker47]

The story of Nimrod can be found in Genesis, particularly Chapters 10 and 11. Nimrod was a descendent of Ham. Ham's descendants were cursed by God and became the leaders of tribes hostile to Israel. Nimrod is described as a great hunter and warrior and generally acknowledges as the first great pagan king. He was the founder the city of Babylon. He organized the building of the Tower of Babylon and hoped to rise from there into the heavens and replace God. One might say he was the first Relative Humanist, but YHWH had other plans in mind.

 

[DavidLamb]

The story of Nimrod can be found in Genesis, particularly Chapters 10 and 11. Nimrod was a descendent of Ham. Ham's descendants were cursed by God and became the leaders of tribes hostile to Israel. Nimrod is described as a great hunter and warrior and generally acknowledges as the first great pagan king. He was the founder the city of Babylon. He organized the building of the Tower of Babylon and hoped to rise from there into the heavens and replace God. One might say he was the first Relative Humanist, but YHWH had other plans in mind.

Nimrod is mentioned just four times in the Bible:

NKJV Gen 10:8 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth.

Gen 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; therefore it is said, "Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD."
Gen 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

1Ch 1:10 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth.

Mic 5:6 They shall waste with the sword the land of Assyria, And the land of Nimrod at its entrances; Thus He shall deliver us from the Assyrian, When he comes into our land And when he treads within our borders.

(That last reference is to the land of Nimrod rather than the man.)

Where are we told that he "organized the building of the Tower of Babylon"? (Did you mean "Babel"?)

 

[lrs68]

King David and Joshua who led the Hebrew people to the Promised Land for Moses both enjoyed a Book named Jasher. Within the scroll of Jasher there's more details about Nimrod. Ultimately it still concludes a similar viewpoint as the Thread OP has already shared.

 

[Seeker47]

King David and Joshua who led the Hebrew people to the Promised Land for Moses both enjoyed a Book named Jasher. Within the scroll of Jasher there's more details about Nimrod. Ultimately it still concludes a similar viewpoint as the Thread OP has already shared.

I'll check that out....thanks!

 

[Aaron56]

Yeah, there are several "circles" depicted in heaven:

-The four living creatures and the 24 elders sitting on thrones around God.
-Angels, multitudes, and every created being forming a circle around the elders and living creatures.
-An emerald rainbow encircling the throne of God

When officiating marriages I remind the husband and wife about the symbolism of the ring: a covenant until the end of time.

 

[BartholomewB]

Nimrod is mentioned just four times in the Bible:

NKJV Gen 10:8 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth.

Gen 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD; therefore it is said, "Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD."
Gen 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

1Ch 1:10 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth.

Mic 5:6 They shall waste with the sword the land of Assyria, And the land of Nimrod at its entrances; Thus He shall deliver us from the Assyrian, When he comes into our land And when he treads within our borders.

(That last reference is to the land of Nimrod rather than the man.)

Where are we told that he "organized the building of the Tower of Babylon"? (Did you mean "Babel"?)

Where are we told that he "organized the building of the Tower of Babylon"? (Did you mean "Babel"?)

“Babel” and “Babylon” are in fact the same place. One spelling is the Hebrew form of the name, the other is the Greek form. The usual practice in English Bibles is to write “Babel” in the tower episode in Gen 10 and 11, but “Babylon” everywhere else. However, the translators of the Septuagint didn’t bother to draw that distinction. Even in Gen 10:10 they used the Greek form Βαβυλών:

https://archive.org/details/InterlinearGreekEnglishSeptuagintOldTestamentPrint/page/n31/mode/2up

 

[Seeker47]

“Babel” and “Babylon” are in fact the same place. One spelling is the Hebrew form of the name, the other is the Greek form. The usual practice in English Bibles is to write “Babel” in the tower episode in Gen 10 and 11, but “Babylon” everywhere else. However, the translators of the Septuagint didn’t bother to draw that distinction. Even in Gen 10:10 they used the Greek form Βαβυλών:

https://archive.org/details/InterlinearGreekEnglishSeptuagintOldTestamentPrint/page/n31/mode/2up

Potato....Tomato.... Thanks!

 

[DavidLamb]

“Babel” and “Babylon” are in fact the same place. One spelling is the Hebrew form of the name, the other is the Greek form. The usual practice in English Bibles is to write “Babel” in the tower episode in Gen 10 and 11, but “Babylon” everywhere else. However, the translators of the Septuagint didn’t bother to draw that distinction. Even in Gen 10:10 they used the Greek form Βαβυλών:

https://archive.org/details/InterlinearGreekEnglishSeptuagintOldTestamentPrint/page/n31/mode/2up

Thanks for that information. I'm still not sure where the Bible says anything about Nimrod "organized the building of the Tower of Babylon" though.

 

[rewriter]

I'll check that out....thanks!

One slight problem, no one living for the past couple thousand years has seemed to know what the Book of Jasher even looked like. It is one of the truly lost works.

 

[rewriter]

Once in a while we encounter passages in the bible that are a little odd; out of place. We know the bible is inspired. When we encounter these oddities, we should pay special attention.

This is true in Genesis 25, when Jacob prepares lentil soup and gives some to Esau.

The Shemites of Abrahams era followed a mourning custom called Shiva. Shiva is a seven-day period of mourning calling for prayer, humility and rest. There were also special foods eaten that remind the mourners of the circular pattern of life. Eggs and lentils, both having round shapes, were traditional.

The mourners, immediate family of the deceased, were prohibited from any work during Shiva, including cooking. This prohibition did not include grandchildren. Since Abraham had just died, his grandchildren could prepare the food for Isaac and Rebecca during their Shiva.

Jacob was following the cultural tradition by supporting his parents, Esau was not. Esau chose instead to follow his own passion for hunting. (We must note the only other named hunter in the bible was Nimrod, who tried to take God’s rightful place in heaven). These events clearly establish God’s motives in choosing Jacob as the righteous inheritor of Abrahams covenant, not the elder Esau. We are here reminded that our God is not arbitrary, but deliberate.

Can you cite your source that confirms that modern Shiva customs existed at the time of Jacob and Esau?

 

[OMC]

One slight problem, no one living for the past couple thousand years has seemed to know what the Book of Jasher even looked like. It is one of the truly lost works.

I think that's fair.
The Bible mentions the Book of Jasher in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18, but no one today can demonstrate that they possess the same work referred to in those passages.
The books commonly sold as "Jasher" are much later compositions, not manuscripts that can be traced back to the period of Joshua or David.
So while Scripture confirms that a Book of Jasher once existed, the contents of that original work are effectively lost to us.
Any appeal to a modern "Book of Jasher" therefore carries far less authority than an appeal to the biblical text itself.

 

[OMC]

Once in a while we encounter passages in the bible that are a little odd; out of place. We know the bible is inspired. When we encounter these oddities, we should pay special attention.

This is true in Genesis 25, when Jacob prepares lentil soup and gives some to Esau.

The Shemites of Abrahams era followed a mourning custom called Shiva. Shiva is a seven-day period of mourning calling for prayer, humility and rest. There were also special foods eaten that remind the mourners of the circular pattern of life. Eggs and lentils, both having round shapes, were traditional.

The mourners, immediate family of the deceased, were prohibited from any work during Shiva, including cooking. This prohibition did not include grandchildren. Since Abraham had just died, his grandchildren could prepare the food for Isaac and Rebecca during their Shiva.

Jacob was following the cultural tradition by supporting his parents, Esau was not. Esau chose instead to follow his own passion for hunting. (We must note the only other named hunter in the bible was Nimrod, who tried to take God’s rightful place in heaven). These events clearly establish God’s motives in choosing Jacob as the righteous inheritor of Abrahams covenant, not the elder Esau. We are here reminded that our God is not arbitrary, but deliberate.

" Can you cite a historical source showing that the specific customs associated with modern Jewish shiva were already practiced in the time of Jacob and Esau?" Not that I'm aware of.

What we do have are later Jewish traditions that trace seven-day mourning back to figures such as Jacob.
For example, Genesis 50:10 records that Joseph mourned for Jacob for seven days, and later Jewish sources use that as a basis for mourning practices.
However, those sources are describing the origins or antecedents of mourning periods, not demonstrating that the full set of later shiva customs already existed in the patriarchal age. [reformjudaism.org], [jewishobituary.com]

So there is a significant difference between:
A seven-day mourning period existing in the biblical period, and
The detailed shiva customs known from later rabbinic Judaism.

Unless someone can produce evidence from the patriarchal period itself, it seems anachronistic to assume that the fully developed form of shiva practiced in later Judaism was already in place in the days of Jacob and Esau.
The existence of a seven-day mourning period is not, by itself, proof that the later custom existed in its complete form.

 

[Seeker47]

Can you cite your source that confirms that modern Shiva customs existed at the time of Jacob and Esau?

Shiva is an ancient and central practice in Judaism.

The Talmud (Sanhedrin 108b) holds that the practice originated prior to the Flood, which is described in the story of Noah in Genesis. References to Shiva are also scattered throughout the 1st Testament including Job mourning 7 days with his friends. Job is widely considered the oldest book in the bible.

Halakah establishes the ancient and traditional meal of comfort. This includes lentils, hard-boiled eggs, and bread – all foods that in Judaism are associated with life.

 

[OMC]

Shiva is an ancient and central practice in Judaism.

The Talmud (Sanhedrin 108b) holds that the practice originated prior to the Flood, which is described in the story of Noah in Genesis. References to Shiva are also scattered throughout the 1st Testament including Job mourning 7 days with his friends. Job is widely considered the oldest book in the bible.

Halakah establishes the ancient and traditional meal of comfort. This includes lentils, hard-boiled eggs, and bread – all foods that in Judaism are associated with life.

Citing later rabbinic tradition and the Talmud shows what later Judaism believed about the origins of the practice, but it does not automatically establish that the fully developed form of shiva existed in the patriarchal period.
There is a difference between evidence for ancient mourning periods and evidence for the complete later institution in its rabbinic form.

 

[Seeker47]

" Can you cite a historical source showing that the specific customs associated with modern Jewish shiva were already practiced in the time of Jacob and Esau?" Not that I'm aware of.

What we do have are later Jewish traditions that trace seven-day mourning back to figures such as Jacob.
For example, Genesis 50:10 records that Joseph mourned for Jacob for seven days, and later Jewish sources use that as a basis for mourning practices.
However, those sources are describing the origins or antecedents of mourning periods, not demonstrating that the full set of later shiva customs already existed in the patriarchal age. [reformjudaism.org], [jewishobituary.com]

So there is a significant difference between:
A seven-day mourning period existing in the biblical period, and
The detailed shiva customs known from later rabbinic Judaism.

Unless someone can produce evidence from the patriarchal period itself, it seems anachronistic to assume that the fully developed form of shiva practiced in later Judaism was already in place in the days of Jacob and Esau.
The existence of a seven-day mourning period is not, by itself, proof that the later custom existed in its complete form.

You can chose to eject the words in the bible if you like. These have existed a long time before rabbinic judaism.

 

[OMC]

You can chose to eject the words in the bible if you like. These have existed a long time before rabbinic judaism.

I'm not ejecting anything from Scripture. Quite the opposite.
I'm affirming that the biblical evidence shows seven-day mourning customs existed long before rabbinic Judaism.
Job's friends sat with him seven days (Job 2:13), Joseph mourned Jacob seven days (Gen. 50:10), and Scripture contains numerous examples of extended mourning.
My point was narrower: showing that ancient seven-day mourning existed is not identical to proving that every later rabbinic detail of shiva was already established in the patriarchal period.
The biblical texts clearly establish the antiquity of mourning customs.
What they do not explicitly describe are all the later halakhic particulars, such as the formalized meal of comfort, specific mourning regulations, and other customs that developed over time.
So I don't deny that the roots are ancient. I agree they are.
I am simply distinguishing between:
The biblical evidence for ancient mourning practices.
The historical question of when particular rabbinic customs became standardized.
Those are two different claims.
Affirming the second is not necessary to affirm the first.
The existence of later development does not mean the underlying practice was invented by rabbinic Judaism, nor does the antiquity of the practice prove that every later custom was present from the beginning.

 

[Seeker47]

One slight problem, no one living for the past couple thousand years has seemed to know what the Book of Jasher even looked like. It is one of the truly lost works.

I understand it is generally discounted. I can understand why after looking.

 

[Seeker47]

I'm not ejecting anything from Scripture. Quite the opposite.
I'm affirming that the biblical evidence shows seven-day mourning customs existed long before rabbinic Judaism.
Job's friends sat with him seven days (Job 2:13), Joseph mourned Jacob seven days (Gen. 50:10), and Scripture contains numerous examples of extended mourning.
My point was narrower: showing that ancient seven-day mourning existed is not identical to proving that every later rabbinic detail of shiva was already established in the patriarchal period.
The biblical texts clearly establish the antiquity of mourning customs.
What they do not explicitly describe are all the later halakhic particulars, such as the formalized meal of comfort, specific mourning regulations, and other customs that developed over time.
So I don't deny that the roots are ancient. I agree they are.
I am simply distinguishing between:
The biblical evidence for ancient mourning practices.
The historical question of when particular rabbinic customs became standardized.
Those are two different claims.
Affirming the second is not necessary to affirm the first.
The existence of later development does not mean the underlying practice was invented by rabbinic Judaism, nor does the antiquity of the practice prove that every later custom was present from the beginning.

Then it appears you are rejecting Genesis. The meal was cooked by someone other than direct family. It was served just after the death of Abraham. It included lentils. All this as prescribed as Halakah.

I respect your comments but arrive at a different conclusion.