Obedience REQUIRED

[carbunculus]

I wouldn't be a Christian if I didn't.

The thing to know about the Lord is He cannot and does not accept workers of iniquity.
Have you accepted this?

This is why He has warnings in His Word letting people know they must depart from iniquity and abide in Christ and those not doing so will be removed from His Kingdom.

This is why the enemy is pushing eternal security teaching so hard is because he knows a lot of people will stand flowing with the world in iniquity thinking they are still saved on their way to Heaven when they are not.

You know i would rather chuck a full bottle of plonk down the sink than sip from the devils cup, it's just a shame you never started asking questions first like you are now,.your slowly improving with me,.keep it up and I may even give you a cookie

 

[carbunculus]

I wouldn't be a Christian if I didn't.

The thing to know about the Lord is He cannot and does not accept workers of iniquity.
Have you accepted this?

This is why He has warnings in His Word letting people know they must depart from iniquity and abide in Christ and those not doing so will be removed from His Kingdom.

This is why the enemy is pushing eternal security teaching so hard is because he knows a lot of people will stand flowing with the world in iniquity thinking they are still saved on their way to Heaven when they are not.

Just a polite request, try talking nice about eternal security with me,

I much prefer that thanks

 

[rogerg]

I thank God for all the blocks laid on top of the corner stone, as well as for the corner stone Himself.
Jesus died for my past sins, and was raised from the dead three days later.
THAT is the gospel.
Everything else we have been tought is in addition to the gospel.
I learned I must stay true to my Savior.
What have you been taught that annuls that understanding ?

What invalidates that understanding is a simple truth: Jesus Christ alone is the Savior—not man. If He were merely a part-time or occasional Savior rather than the complete and eternal Savior, He would not truly be the Savior at all.
Your claim that Jesus died only for past sins denies the completeness of His saving work and shows that you do not understand it. For the record, I will continue to document that your position rests on a fundamental misunderstanding of what a Savior is, what a Savior does, and what Jesus Christ accomplished as THE Savior. If Christ paid only for past sins, then your future salvation depends entirely on your continued work and performance, making salvation dependent on you rather than Him. Yet Hebrews 10:14 states, “For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.” The cross did not purchase temporary probation; it paid in full for all sins once and for all, perfectly and completely.
By claiming that you must continue performing works to retain salvation, you turn a free gift into a conditional reward earned by your own strength. First Corinthians 3:11 says that no foundation can be laid other than Jesus Christ, yet you make yourself the foundation. Second Corinthians 1:19–20 declares that all God’s promises are already “Yea” and “Amen” in Christ, yet you claim they are secured by your works. First Corinthians 1:30 affirms that God alone places a person in Christ by His power, yet you claim that you both place yourself in Him and keep yourself in Him. On the contrary, salvation is a certainty secured solely by God, not a contract sustained by your ability to keep the Law. You understand neither salvation as Scripture teaches it nor the Savior who alone provides it.

 

[mailmandan]

Choosing is a work done for salvation.
Choosing not to believe is a work done for destruction.

You turn everything into a work for salvation. Choosing to believe the gospel is not simply just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. By choosing to believe the gospel/place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, we are accepting a free gift. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) Not of works lest anyone should boast.

Our choices guide our actions.
If one wants to be found innocent on the day of judgement, he will choose to keep himself free from the lusts of the "flesh".

Back to sinless perfection?

You seem to believe that the "starting gun" is the end of the race.

The starting gun is not the end of the race and from beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

Thank God we have the choice to believe our past sins can be washed away at our "immersion" into Christ's death!

This is signified but not procured in water baptism. Only the blood of Christ can wash away our sins. (Romans 3:24-26; Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14)

No man can remain true to his turn from sin, witout water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their past sins; as it is baptism that also destroys the old man and allows our resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life/rebirth from God's seed.

Water baptism is a symbol and a symbol is not the reality but is a picture of the reality.

So what ?
It isn't the works of the Law that Paul wrote against !

First you say it is and now you say it isn't. Make up your mind.

I would have thought that Paul would have known that when he baptized the twelve at Epesus.
But he did water baptize them, AND laid hands on them so they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Two different baptisms in the period of just a few minutes !

Do you understand why he laid hands on them prior to them receiving the Holy Spirit? Do you understand the difference between water baptism and Spirit baptism?

True, so what seed are the disobedient 'born of' ?
Not God's.

They are not born of God. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

Thanks be to God that we are no longer under the Mosaic Law's hundreds of edicts, and have but two commanments to obey.
Lack of obedience manifests a lack of connection to God's seed.

1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother

 

[pinebeach]

Which is why I'm sharing the warnings the Lord has put in His Word
You need to argue with the Lord over the portions of His Word you don't accept, not me.

Yeah....one day it will all be clearer to you. Manifesting self righteous as you continually do, is not a spiritual gift.

 

[Freed18]

Why would this apply to believers ?

It wouldn't in any situation except determining who is a believer, and who is a poser.

Most people who preach eternal security all seem grounded in the word to me.

I find that false doctrine especially hideaous.
It boils down to...do what ever you want, withour fear of repercussions from God.

I would be careful if I was you.

Thanks for the exhortatiuon.

Encouraging kids on the milk is a good thing but equally encouraging them wisely is really something for mature believers,

I agree, but warning them of those espousing sour milk is important too.

May I ask, are you qualified?

I have been given the gift of the Holy Ghost, so I have the mind of Christ.
Thanks be to God, I am qualified.

 

[Freed18]

I believe it's in genesis 4:7

Yep, it is..."And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. (Gen 4:6-7)
I meant to type out "biblegateway.com".
I garbled it in my last post.

So do you know about a relationship with the father before the son ?

In these times, 2000 years after Jesus came and went, our relationship with either is rather simultaneous.
The men of the OT had their relationship with God, before hearing of and choosing to believe that Jesus was His Son.

 

[Freed18]

What invalidates that understanding is a simple truth: Jesus Christ alone is the Savior—not man. If He were merely a part-time or occasional Savior rather than the complete and eternal Savior, He would not truly be the Savior at all.

I agree.
But don't you hink that what a man does with that information is important to that man ?
Knowing that Jesus is the Savior doesn't do anyone any good if they reject Him.

Your claim that Jesus died only for past sins denies the completeness of His saving work and shows that you do not understand it.

My understanding is that once a man turns from sin it is permanent, so future sin is a moot point.
The repentance from sin is either a complete turn, or it is no turn at all.

For the record, I will continue to document that your position rests on a fundamental misunderstanding of what a Savior is, what a Savior does, and what Jesus Christ accomplished as THE Savior.

I am fine with that.
As long as you post your POV on it too so others can decide which is the Godly understanding.

If Christ paid only for past sins, then your future salvation depends entirely on your continued work and performance, making salvation dependent on you rather than Him.

Hardly, as step one, finished by Jesus, must precede anything we can, or must do.

Yet Hebrews 10:14 states, “For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.” The cross did not purchase temporary probation; it paid in full for all sins once and for all, perfectly and completely.

The cross purchased our redemption.
But it takes our water baptism into Christ's death, to partake in the application of His blood for our sactification, atonement, consecration, justification, being set apart, & made holy.
We have our part to do to complete the deal...so to speak.

By claiming that you must continue performing works to retain salvation, you turn a free gift into a conditional reward earned by your own strength.

I thank God that our obedience to God is not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.
So your point is moot.

First Corinthians 3:11 says that no foundation can be laid other than Jesus Christ, yet you make yourself the foundation.

Amen to that.

Second Corinthians 1:19–20 declares that all God’s promises are already “Yea” and “Amen” in Christ, yet you claim they are secured by your works.

Hardly.
God gave commandments for us to complete, so we can partake in Christ.

First Corinthians 1:30 affirms that God alone places a person in Christ by His power, yet you claim that you both place yourself in Him and keep yourself in Him. On the contrary, salvation is a certainty secured solely by God, not a contract sustained by your ability to keep the Law. You understand neither salvation as Scripture teaches it nor the Savior who alone provides it.

By His power, He gave us the gifts of repentance from sin, and baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins.
Also to the gift of the destruction of the old man so we can be reborn as new creatures.
But we gotta use His gifts to partake of any of that.

 

[Freed18]

You turn everything into a work for salvation. Choosing to believe the gospel is not simply just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. By choosing to believe the gospel/place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, we are accepting a free gift. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8,9) Not of works lest anyone should boast.

So what ?
It isn't a work of the Law, and that is what Paul wrote against.
The false prophets have usurped Paul's teachings, and added everything the Lord commanded must be done for salvation to it.

Back to sinless perfection?

Back to sinless obedience and love for the Creator who ded to free me from sinning.

The starting gun is not the end of the race and from beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

Corrct, not the works of the Law...circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, priesthoods, tithing, etc.

This is signified but not procured in water baptism. Only the blood of Christ can wash away our sins. (Romans 3:24-26; Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14)

How is that blood apllied to the repentant ?
By "immersion" into Christ at His death. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is the means of that "imersion".

Water baptism is a symbol and a symbol is not the reality but is a picture of the reality.

It is a reality, and by faith, it washes away past sins when done in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16)
It also destroyes the old man so the new creature can be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24)

First you say it is and now you say it isn't. Make up your mind.

Regarding what ?

Do you understand why he laid hands on them prior to them receiving the Holy Spirit? Do you understand the difference between water baptism and Spirit baptism?

He laid hands on them so they would receive the Holy Ghost.
He did so after he water baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ for the remisison of any sins committed since they wre washed of sin at their John's baptism unto repentnce.
The baptim done in the name of Jesus Christ also provide for the destuction of their old man, (with the affections and lusts), and their rebirth from God's seed.

They are not born of God. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

Via baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and into Christ, they are reborn of God. (Rom 6:3-7)
Destroyed, then raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:6, 4)

1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother

Amen.
Sinners have not been reborn of God's seed, as His seed bcannot bring forth liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.

 

[Gideon300]

Your present condition may suit you well, but being in a state of comfort about your situation does not equate to being right with God. This is true for all of us. Too many believers think that their sentiments or sensibilities is evidence of a correct standing with God. This is a mentality doomed to defeat. I have learned to trust the Bible in all things regardless of my circumstances: "for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day".

Luke 17:21 - no one will say, “See here! ” or “There! ” For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.’

New Age Christianity which emphasizing feelings and the esoteric is unscriptural. Either you are biblically born again or you are not. Feeling that your are born again will led many to the same fate of those who cried out "Lord, Lord did we not". I don't know if you are New Age or not, but you come across as if you are. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I am most certainly not RC. I am a member of the church of Christ. Romans 16:16

There are two aspects to being born again. One is the position, which what God grants us when we receive Christ. At the new birth, we receive everything that God is ever going to give us. And it is all in Christ. The second aspect is our condition. Our condition is what we experience in real life of who we are in Christ.

Many think that they have to change their behaviour in order to be acceptable to God. Those who are born again are already acceptable to God, even if they do not realise it.

Christian maturity includes the realisation that the work of Christ was finished, exactly as He said from the cross. I realised that many years ago. It is the place called the knowledge of the truth. And that is God's will for all mankind.

The knowledge of the truth brings a peace that is beyond understanding. I no longer have to strive, and I never did. I just did not know it. The truth is not a sentiment or a sensibility. Truth is the basis for faith. And Truth is a person, Jesus.

So yes, you are wrong.

 

[carbunculus]

Yep, it is..."And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. (Gen 4:6-7)
I meant to type out "biblegateway.com".
I garbled it in my last post.

In these times, 2000 years after Jesus came and went, our relationship with either is rather simultaneous.
The men of the OT had their relationship with God, before hearing of and choosing to believe that Jesus was His Son.

I would suggest doing a full study on the relationship you have with father first before the son,
The scriptures are there, that more than suggest all saved children of God our accepted by Christ after doing what is right by the father first.

I believe it's important to know that being obedient to the instructions of the father is something that leads to being accepted by the son, so you would do well to learn that once your accepted by the son, it's means your already blessed with self control which is a gift, and your already blessed with obedience, and your blessed with the knowledge of both the son and the father, now it may not be you realise this at first, but every child will have communication with the father, it's that simple

 

[carbunculus]

Yep, it is..."And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. (Gen 4:6-7)
I meant to type out "biblegateway.com".
I garbled it in my last post.

In these times, 2000 years after Jesus came and went, our relationship with either is rather simultaneous.
The men of the OT had their relationship with God, before hearing of and choosing to believe that Jesus was His Son.

So it seems after looking at your reply again you have fully understood what I was indicating which I wasn't sure in my last reply which am now ? , but it looks like you would rather neglect what you've understood, with your answer, the reality here is there is over whelming scriptures that suggest being under the father first before the son is not simultaneous, and I would ask you to show me in scripture how you've come to this understanding, as guessing it's different because it's 2000 years after christ, isn't really backing your attempt to disprove what you've understood.

Also it's not wise to carry on believing and supporting a doctrine when you have clear instruction that shows you that you need to look at something, that's not wise,

 

[rogerg]

I agree.
But don't you hink that what a man does with that information is important to that man ?
Knowing that Jesus is the Savior doesn't do anyone any good if they reject Him.

My understanding is that once a man turns from sin it is permanent, so future sin is a moot point.
The repentance from sin is either a complete turn, or it is no turn at all.

I am fine with that.
As long as you post your POV on it too so others can decide which is the Godly understanding.

Hardly, as step one, finished by Jesus, must precede anything we can, or must do.

The cross purchased our redemption.
But it takes our water baptism into Christ's death, to partake in the application of His blood for our sactification, atonement, consecration, justification, being set apart, & made holy.
We have our part to do to complete the deal...so to speak.

I thank God that our obedience to God is not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.
So your point is moot.

Amen to that.

Hardly.
God gave commandments for us to complete, so we can partake in Christ.

By His power, He gave us the gifts of repentance from sin, and baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins.
Also to the gift of the destruction of the old man so we can be reborn as new creatures.
But we gotta use His gifts to partake of any of that.

Once again, you confirm everything I stated about you and your error in my post, but you are simply blind to it.

I agree.
But don't you hink that what a man does with that information is important to that man ?
Knowing that Jesus is the Savior doesn't do anyone any good if they reject Him.

My understanding is that once a man turns from sin it is permanent, so future sin is a moot point.
The repentance from sin is either a complete turn, or it is no turn at all.

I am fine with that.
As long as you post your POV on it too so others can decide which is the Godly understanding.

Hardly, as step one, finished by Jesus, must precede anything we can, or must do.

The cross purchased our redemption.
But it takes our water baptism into Christ's death, to partake in the application of His blood for our sactification, atonement, consecration, justification, being set apart, & made holy.
We have our part to do to complete the deal...so to speak.

I thank God that our obedience to God is not the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.
So your point is moot.

Amen to that.

Hardly.
God gave commandments for us to complete, so we can partake in Christ.

By His power, He gave us the gifts of repentance from sin, and baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins.
Also to the gift of the destruction of the old man so we can be reborn as new creatures.
But we gotta use His gifts to partake of any of that.

As I’ve said before, you do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior.

 

[OMC]

I have been given the gift of the Holy Ghost, so I have the mind of Christ.
Thanks be to God, I am qualified.

I would be careful with that statement. Every true believer has received the Holy Spirit, and Paul does say: "But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Cor. 2:16).
However, possessing the mind of Christ does not make any of us infallible in our interpretations.
The Corinthian believers had the Holy Spirit, yet Paul still corrected them on numerous issues.
The Galatians had received the Spirit, yet Paul asked, "Who hath bewitched you?"
The churches in Revelation were indwelt by the Spirit, yet Christ still rebuked and corrected them.

So I would say: Thanks be to God that He has given His Spirit to His people.
Without the Holy Spirit, none of us could understand spiritual truth at all.
But the fact that I have the Holy Spirit does not exempt me from testing my conclusions against Scripture, nor does it mean that everyone who disagrees with me lacks the Spirit.

The strongest position is not: "I have the Holy Spirit, therefore my interpretation must be correct."
Rather: "I have the Holy Spirit, therefore I should humbly submit my interpretation to the whole counsel of God's Word."
After all, sincere believers on opposite sides of many doctrinal debates have confessed Christ, possessed the Spirit, and appealed to Scripture.
The question is not who claims the Spirit, but which interpretation best fits what God has actually said.

 

[mailmandan]

So what ?
It isn't a work of the Law, and that is what Paul wrote against.
The false prophets have usurped Paul's teachings, and added everything the Lord commanded must be done for salvation to it.

You teach salvation by works when the Bible says we are not saved by works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Works salvation is no salvation at all and all you can say is so what?

Back to sinless obedience and love for the Creator who ded to free me from sinning.

1 John 1:8 - f we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Those who claim sinless perfection are suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness.

Corrct, not the works of the Law...circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, priesthoods, tithing, etc.

Not the works of the Law..circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, priesthoods, tithing AND also includes the moral aspect of the law which involves loving God and our neighbor as ourselves (Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16) so you cannot dissect good works from the law. God imputes righteousness apart from works (Romans 4:6) saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us (Titus 3:5) God saved us saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works. (2 Timothy 1:9)

How is that blood apllied to the repentant?
By "immersion" into Christ at His death. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)
Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is the means of that "imersion".

Through repentance/believing in Him/faith. (Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43; 15:7-9; 26:18; Romans 3:24-26 etc..)

It is a reality, and by faith, it washes away past sins when done in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16)
It also destroyes the old man so the new creature can be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24)

You continue to confuse the reality (Spirit baptism) with the picture of the reality (water baptism). Acts 2:38 must be read alongside verses like (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18) where forgiveness is explicitly tied to repentance/belief/faith and not water baptism.

In Acts 22:16, the cleansing happens as he calls on Christ, not by the water itself. The water is symbolic; the appeal to Christ’s name is the saving act. Romans 10:13 - For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. *Hermeneutics.

The remission of sins has three applications: 1. Literally, by the blood of Christ - Matthew 26:28 2. Experientially, by faith in Christ - Acts 26:18 3. Figuratively, by water baptism - Acts 22:16

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - WHAT IS TRUTH: Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

Regarding what ?

He laid hands on them so they would receive the Holy Ghost.

Why is the laying on of hands before receiving the Holy Spirit found in certain cases but not in every case of conversion?

He did so after he water baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ for the remisison of any sins committed since they wre washed of sin at their John's baptism unto repentnce.
The baptim done in the name of Jesus Christ also provide for the destuction of their old man, (with the affections and lusts), and their rebirth from God's seed.

Baptismal regeneration is a false gospel.

Via baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and into Christ, they are reborn of God. (Rom 6:3-7)
Destroyed, then raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:6, 4)

Again, a symbol is not the reality but is a picture of the reality. You are trying to turn a symbol into a savior.

Amen.
Sinners have not been reborn of God's seed, as His seed cannot bring forth liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.

1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. The word "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)

 

[Roger316]

So we can all go live in sin and it's all good then?

No. I didn't say that. I am reacting to your claim that it is possible to cease from sinning and your implied claim that reformed doctrine necessarily leads to licentiousness. You are making claims about Reformed doctrine that are not true.

You are teaching falsely because the Lord is concerned with His people NOT living in sin.

I didn't say that either. I didn't claim that the Lord was unconcerned with sin; I maintain that sin is not His MAIN concern. The Lord and his apostles are mainly concerned with the "inner man", the inner life of a person. As Paul said in Romans, a Jew is one inwardly, and his approval is from God.

Those that know God's Word are aware. Those that don't aren't.

2 Timothy 2:19 - Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity

1 Corinthians 15:34 - Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

If a person does not confess and forsake their sin then they won't be able to walk in any of the things you have mentioned.

If a person does not confess and forsake their sin, they aren't a follower of Jesus. Why concern ourselves about them? What concerns me is someone who confesses and forsakes their sin but remains unsuccessful in mastering it. John exhorts his readers to rely on the prayers of others.

There again, you are unaware of the warnings in God's Word telling us it's entirely possible for as Christ who was once born again to turn away from the Lord and end up not being saved.

No, I am aware that you are repeating a common objection to the Calvinist Doctrine of "Limited Atonement." Not really understanding the doctrine itself, opponents of Calvinism argue that if the cross of Christ is entirely effective in securing pardon for all the elect, then the elect have no incentive to avoid sin and live in righteousness.

Moreover, the doctrine of "the perseverance of the saints" teaches that God guarantees the elect will persevere in faith until the end. Objectors to Calvinism claim that fatalism is the logical implication of this idea. If God is going to save us simply on the basis of election, there is no incentive for the elect to obey God or his Son Jesus Christ. The Elect are going to be saved no matter what they do. Since, according to Calvinists, they were chosen for salvation before they were born, they can't lose their salvation and if they can't lose their salvation, they have no threat of punishment and no reason to act morally.

Calvin's objectors have mischaracterized the doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints" as OSAS and argue on the basis that the Bible is filled with warnings about falling away from the faith and only those who persevere in faith will be saved. But while the doctrine of OSAS is flawed, the doctrine of "The Perseverance of the Saints" is not.

So yes, I am fully aware of Biblical warnings and I understand them in the way they were intended, not as an argument against Calvinism but as a warning against unbelief.

Yes and starting with Adam the devil has been deceiving people in to believing they can live in sin and still be in right standing with the Lord too. They cannot.

Try to focus on your actual objection. Your concern is not about humanity in general. Your concern is about those who claim to be Christian but are not.

This is how the eternal security people are easily deceived by their own false doctrine.

I disagree with your mischaracterization of those who believe in eternal security. This is neither true nor fair. Be careful to avoid painting people with a broad brush.

It's always odd to hear people claiming to be Christians arguing so hard for sin as they claim sin is not a problem and it's somehow magically been done away with as though sowing to the flesh no longer causes a person to reap corruption. It's almost like they believe what a man sows is not what he reaps which is mocking God as we see in Galatians 6:7.8

You must be hanging around the wrong people. I have never heard people claiming to be Christians arguing that sin is not a problem.

 

[ThomasMatthew]

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

 

[ScooterJackson]

Yeah....one day it will all be clearer to you. Manifesting self righteous as you continually do, is not a spiritual gift.

Telling people what the Lord says in His Word is laying one's own righteousness aside and taking up the Lord's righteousness.
Too bad so many have such problems with the Word of the Lord in these end times where deception has become so strong.

I'm sure if I agreed with whatever you say then you'd think I was a great guy, right?
And of course those that don't agree with whatever you say are of course self righteous.

 

[PaulThomson]

Hebrews 5:9 - And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him

I always wonder how people continue to believe they are saved anyway if they aren't obedient to the Lord.

Some come right out and say that obedience is not required for salvation even though that's not what the Word of the Lord says.

Apparently this is further proof that some among us openly reject some things the Lord says as they walk in disobedience.

Obedience is required, but perfect obedience is not required. That's why God continues to forgive us even after we have put our faith in Jesus as Lord and Saviour. However, if someone ever thought that believing at some point in time that Jesus died for their sins and rose again, without any further obedience on their part, was all that was needed to secure a permanent place in God's kingdom, they would be absolutely wrong.

 

[Freed18]

I would suggest doing a full study on the relationship you have with father first before the son,
The scriptures are there, that more than suggest all saved children of God our accepted by Christ after doing what is right by the father first.

That which God has given to Jesus for our salvation is adeqate for our salvation.
To study One is to study both the Father and the Son.

I believe it's important to know that being obedient to the instructions of the father is something that leads to being accepted by the son, so you would do well to learn that once your accepted by the son, it's means your already blessed with self control which is a gift, and your already blessed with obedience, and your blessed with the knowledge of both the son and the father, now it may not be you realise this at first, but every child will have communication with the father, it's that simple

The commands we have from Jesus and His apostles on how to be saved, are sufficient for salvation on the day of judgement.
Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, amd strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.