Obedience REQUIRED

[Lamar]

My salvation is up to me.

I understand what you mean by this statement but beware there are those on this forum who are ready to pounce by suggesting that you are attempting to "earn" your salvation.

To them this is all it takes to label someone a "works-salvationist".

Mailmandan is licking his chops about now.

 

[ScooterJackson]

That which God has given to Jesus for our salvation is adequate for our salvation.
To study One is to study both the Father and the Son.

Yep, Jesus said in John 10:30 - “I and my Father are one”
He also said "I came forth from the Father" in John 16:28, so God and His Word cannot be separated.

1 John 5:7 - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

Resisting temptation is ultimately anathema in your doctrine, because you call it a work.

Which is why they don't resist temptation. They just get jiggy with it and sin!
Then make excuses for being in sin as though it's not their fault

 

[rogerg]

Nobody but me will be judged for my actions, on the day of judgement.
My salvation is up to me.
God and His Son made salvatuon available to me/us, but He won't force it onto anyone.

Freed18,
your explicit claim that your salvation is up to you is a complete denial of Scripture and confirms exactly what I have been saying about you - that you completely reject Jesus Christ as THE Savior, which up to now, you have denied. By claiming that God only made salvation available and that the final outcome depends on your own willpower and actions on judgment day, you are openly admitting that you are relying on yourself as savior, not on Jesus Christ. However, Matthew 1:21 states flatly that He shall save His people from their sins - it is unconditional and not left open that man can achieve it. As I have said to you repeatedly, you demonstrate that do not believe Jesus Christ is THE Savior, even though Scripture beyond question, says that He is. Anway, I am glad to see that you've finally decided to come clean and place your cards on the table thereby ending the need for any further debate.

 

[ScooterJackson]

there are those on this forum who are ready to pounce by suggesting that you are attempting to "earn" your salvation.

Yes the reformed people pick and choose which parts of God's Word to believe and throw the rest out.
They've been indoctrinated by teachings from people who murdered others for not following their fake gospel.

To them this is all it takes to label someone a "works-salvationist".
Mailmandan is licking his chops about now.

Anybody that does not agree with them works-salvationists in their view

 

[amazingrace]

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

This refers to dead works!

We have by the initial grace of justification union with God and His saints thru Christ that empowers our actions with grace unto eternal salvation!

Scripture says to repent of dead works
Heb 6:1


2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


Romans 14:18
For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

Jn 15:5 apart from Christ? Nothing!

Phil 4:13 with Christ? I Can do all things!

Thks

 

[ScooterJackson]

Jn 15:5 apart from Christ? Nothing!

Phil 4:13 with Christ? I Can do all things!

Thks

Exactly! The Lord empowers us to turn from sin and remain turned from sin.
It's the Holy Spirit in us doing the good works. Our job is to submit.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Submitting ourselves to the Lord involves dying to self and desire the will of the Lord before anything we may desire.
His will should be our desire!

Romans 6:1,2 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:7 - for he who has died hath been set free from the sin.

Romans 11:22 - Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Romans 8:1 - There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[OMC]

If the true belivers hadn't clarified their teaching, the posers would be running the show now.
And the entire church would be full of false teachings.
As it is, though, only the false churches have the false teachings.

The true ones were sactified, but the posers weren't.

Again, posers were trying to gain a foothold in the chiurch, but the true believers were resistant.

You did notice the peril they faced, if they didn't oust the posers.

The mistaken, immature, inconsistent, and in need of correction, show they are posers by their disconnection from the mind of Christ.

Great, ht not all of them were in Christ.

Of course not.
But the devilish cannot coexist with the sanctified.

The Spirit will not allow corrup teachings.

Disagreements occur so the posers can be weeded out.

And the true believers kept out the posers.

Amen.

I trust the Spirit.

You say you trust the Spirit, but the apostles repeatedly told Spirit-filled believers to test, examine, and correct doctrine.
If every doctrinal error automatically proved someone was a "poser," Paul's letters become difficult to explain.
Paul did not tell the Corinthians, "The mistaken ones among you were never sanctified."
He addressed the church as sanctified saints (1 Cor. 1:2) and then rebuked them for divisions, carnality, lawsuits, abuses of the Lord's Supper, and confusion about spiritual gifts.
Likewise, the Galatians had received the Spirit (Gal. 3:2-5), yet Paul warned them that they were being drawn toward error.
His remedy was not to declare all who erred unsaved, but to bring them back to the truth.

The problem with defining every disagreement as evidence of a "poser" is that Scripture itself often addresses believers as believers while correcting their wrong thinking.
Even Peter, a genuine apostle, had to be publicly corrected by Paul in Galatians 2.
Peter's error did not prove he lacked the Spirit.
It proved that Spirit-filled people can act inconsistently with what they know to be true.

I also trust the Spirit.
The question is what the Spirit Himself says in Scripture.
The Spirit inspired commands such as "prove all things" (1 Thess. 5:21), "try the spirits" (1 John 4:1), and the example of the Bereans who searched the Scriptures daily to verify even apostolic teaching (Acts 17:11).
If possessing the Spirit guaranteed perfect interpretation, those commands would be unnecessary.

The biblical pattern is not that every mistaken believer is a poser.
The biblical pattern is that true believers must continually submit their understanding to the Word of God, allowing Scripture to correct them whenever they are wrong.
That is precisely why God gave the church apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers "till we all come" to maturity (Eph. 4:11-13), indicating growth in understanding rather than instant infallibility.

 

[amazingrace]

under grace it means that you can not earn something by what you do or do not do. and you cannot unearn it.

You don't understand!

Understanding is a gift of the Spirit!

Mt 7:7 ask and you shall receive

Scripture also says those in the flesh cannot please God

Are you in the flesh?

Thks

 

[OMC]

I agree with much of what you have written but the question of who claims the Spirit must be addressed before most other matters are approached.

Some here maintain that the Holy Spirit is gifted with physical manifestations, such as tongues.

Some insist that it is gifted at some point in time during a sincere moment of faith.

Others believe it is gifted during water baptism.

Many believe that only God will decide the moment the gift is given and we must simply wait.

Still others accept that it is gifted by the laying on of hands by another person who claims to have this ability.

All of these options cannot be correct. It is even possible that all of these may be wrong.

Claims of Baptism of the Holy Spirit are presented as proof of salvation as well as a sign of a right standing with God.

And a right standing with God is evidence of a correct theology or so the story goes.

I agree that claims about the Holy Spirit should be examined, but I think you're placing the cart before the horse.
The fact that Christians disagree about when or how the Spirit is received does not mean we must first determine who has the Spirit before we can interpret Scripture.
The apostles consistently reasoned from Scripture to establish truth, not from competing claims of spiritual experience.

The problem is that every group can claim the Spirit.
One says tongues are the evidence, another says water baptism, another says a post-conversion experience, another says the laying on of hands, and another says faith alone.
If we make claims of Spirit-possession the basis of determining doctrine, we end up in a circular argument: "My doctrine is correct because I have the Spirit, and I know I have the Spirit because my doctrine is correct."

Scripture points us elsewhere.
The Bereans were commended because they searched the Scriptures daily to see whether Paul's teaching was true (Acts 17:11).
Paul did not tell them to verify his message by determining whether he had the Spirit.
He told them to test what was being taught against the written Word.

I also do not see Scripture teaching that a right standing with God automatically produces perfect theology.
Apollos was "fervent in the spirit" and taught many things accurately, yet still needed correction regarding John's baptism (Acts 18:24-26).
Peter received revelation from the Father concerning Christ's identity, yet later had to be publicly corrected by Paul (Gal. 2:11-14). Neither example suggests that an error in doctrine proves the absence of the Spirit.

So while the question of the Spirit is important, it cannot function as the starting point for proving theology.
The test remains what it has always been: What has God actually said? Claims of the Spirit must themselves be evaluated by Scripture, not the other way around.
Otherwise every competing group merely appeals to its own spiritual experience as the final authority.

 

[ScooterJackson]

If the true belivers hadn't clarified their teaching, the posers would be running the show now.
And the entire church would be full of false teachings.

This is actually what it has come to. It's known as the ecumenical movement where anybody that claims to be "following God" is accepted as being a Christian regarless of the doctrine they espouse.

Very very few churches teach the whole counsel of God now as they deliver leaven (poison) to their people among any truths they may include in their messages.

That's how the devil operates. He does not lead the tares to teach false doctrine all of the time. People would figure that out and not follow his false teachings. No, the demons do use some teachings that are true and correct and then they tuck in the poison in the midst.

It's like killing an old mangy junk yard dog by putting 1% poison in the hamburger meat. 99% of the meat was good meat, but the dog dies anyway due to the 1% poison.

 

[amazingrace]

No, I disagree.
Your final statement that perseverance is conditional and requires our participation and faithfulness completely misses the mark. You are confusing the practical fruit of spiritual life with the root cause of salvation. If what you suggest were true, then Christ would at best be a co-savior with man, and not THE Savior as Scripture unquestionably tells us that He is. Otherwise, what reason would there be for THE Savior, if not for Him to save?
Titus 3:4-5 states that the love of God our Savior appeared "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us." Your entire claim of conditional human participation and performance falls directly under works of righteousness which we have done, which the text explicitly states do not save. Further, Hebrews 10:14 states: "For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified." Christ did not purchase a temporary probation or a conditional contract: it paid for all sins once-and-for-all. Romans 11:6 states flatly that if salvation is by grace, then it is no more of works, otherwise grace is no more grace. True ongoing perseverance is the unstoppable effect of God quickening the dead hearts of His spiritual children; it is never a cause that can used by man to purchase their salvation.

Eph 2:1 says He quickend us or brought us to life

Jn 1:16 of His fullness we have all received

Jn 10:10 life and life more abundantly
(Life of grace)

We have by the initial grace of justification union with God and His saints thru Christ that empowers our actions with grace unto eternal salvation!

Christ is source of grace!

We have grace not eternal salvation and grace must be increased also lost by deadly sin

What do all those "if's" mean to you?

 

[carbunculus]

I understand what you mean by this statement but beware there are those on this forum who are ready to pounce by suggesting that you are attempting to "earn" your salvation.

To them this is all it takes to label someone a "works-salvationist".

Mailmandan is licking his chops about now.

It may be you may not be best friend with people here, but we should be on guard at all time,

And the reality is everyone who attackd once saved, is generally either catholic pouncing on people or a loud mouth, I know the complete history, and if you want to be on there side, and excuse there behaviour in favour of we must bullies if we don't agree with there arguments , well I can guarantee somebody higher up than me will not be impressed, how you cut his children of for favour of anti saved once saved people, who just randomly accuse people of all sorts.

 

[mailmandan]

No, I don't, and in fact have repeatedly said that the works of the Law can't save anyone.

Yes you do and your not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works)) argument is bogus and still culminates in salvation b obedience/works.

Unfortuneately, you have included every act of obedience in with the works of the Law that Paul wrote against.
Resisting temptation is ultimately anathema in your doctrine, because you call it a work.

I simply pointed out that when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law. (Exodus 20:1-17; Leviticus 19:18; Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37-40)

Is loving our neighbor as ourselves by giving them things which are needed for the body (James 2:15-16) considered a good work? Is loving our neighbor as ourselves excluded from the law of Moses?

Why don't you explain to me which good works that a Christian could accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments (Matthew 22:37-40) which are found in the law of Moses. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

By your interpretation then, verse 7 and 9 make your point moot.

Not at all because John is not teaching sinless perfection. It's about the direction of our walk and not the perfection of our walk.

7 and 9 both say all our sin/unrighteousness can be washed away,..making us free of sin and able to day just that.
Verses 6 and 8 address those walking in darkness, and not those who walk in the light.
Those in God must be free of sin, because there is no sin in God!

You error by interpreting 1 John 1:6-9 through the lens of sinless perfection.

Agreed
Sinners don't know Him.

We are either sinners or saints in the eyes of God based on our salvation or lack of salvation status.

So why can't we say that?
Fact is, the non-sinners can say they have no sin.

There are no non-sinners who never sin. (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10)

The ten commandments are the moral aspect of the Law.

So, now you admit there is a moral aspect of the law.

No other part of the Mosaic Law is carried forward into the NT.

You still cannot dissect the moral aspect of the law from the law of Moses.

I agree.
Sinners have not been converted, and until they are converted, have no hope of salvation

Sinners become saints through faith in Jesus Christ and not through sinless perfection.

I don't, as they are written on my new heart!

So, you believe that you will be saved based on the merits of perfectly obeying the ten commandments, and that's not salvation by works?

 

[rogerg]

Eph 2:1 says He quickend us or brought us to life

Jn 1:16 of His fullness we have all received

Jn 10:10 life and life more abundantly
(Life of grace)

We have by the initial grace of justification union with God and His saints thru Christ that empowers our actions with grace unto eternal salvation!

Christ is source of grace!

We have grace not eternal salvation and grace must be increased also lost by deadly sin

What do all those "if's" mean to you?

Amazingrace,
your claim that we have grace but not eternal salvation and that this life can be lost by sin, is a complete denial of Scripture and the Savior. You quote Ephesians 2:1, but you completely miss that this statement was written strictly to those who were already saved - not to everyone. Paul is describing a past-tense, completed spiritual life-giving miracle to His sheep to remind them that it is God who unilaterally quickened them while they had been dead corpses.
John 10:10 states Christ came to give life, and John 10:28 defines what that life is: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." If the life given by the Savior can be lost through human failure, then it was never eternal, and the text would be wrong. Further, that would make the Savior not THE Savior as we are told He is. By claiming that grace is just a temporary fuel that empowers your own actions to earn eventual salvation, you are turning a completed gift from God into a conditional reward, paid for your own work. This would make Christ a co-savior with man, however, nowhere in Scripture are we informed that man is a co-savior with Christ.
You ask what the conditional statements mean in Scripture? The answer can be found within the verses themselves. The epistles are filled with edifying instructions and descriptions that demonstrate to the living sheep their spiritual identity - not instructions on how to become saved but rather that they who truly manifest such attributes have already been saved - it shows effect, not cause. Further, they show the absolute impossibility of a person being renewed should they choose to turn back to an abiding trust in their own works for salvation after superficially having heard and trusted in Christ as Savior, which demonstrates that they never actually became saved. Hebrews 6:9 explicitly states to true believers: "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak." The attributes that accompany salvation are permanent and can never be lost. Ongoing perseverance is the unalterable effect of those who have been saved by God; it is never something that buys grace. Titus 3:5 explicitly rules out works of righteousness which we have done for salvation. Hebrews 10:14 clearly states that by one offering Christ has perfected forever them that are sanctified.