Elihu, Saint or Satan?

[Davidstarr]

God bless you!

Great question. These are perfect places in this story, specifically Elihu's speech, where we should pause and really analyze his character. Why wold Elihu be angry at Job for persistently declaring his innocence in this matter? It appears he deeply desires Job to be guilty and to make a confession of wrong. But as any reader knows from the beginning, Job is not guilty. He has not committed any sin to incur his suffering.

Also, Elihu is angry at Job's 3 friends. Why? Because they also did not reach any substantial conviction of Job (and yet declared him guilty anyway). Here again it appears Elihu is angry because he is ardent for a conviction of Job, whom every reader knows is innocent based on chapters 1 & 2.

Additionally, isn't it interesting that Elihu is angry at Job's 3 friends for a different reason than God? We are told why Elihu is angry (mentioned above) but God is angry at Job's 3 friends because they did not speak rightly of God "as My servant Job has". Isn't that interesting?

Elihu condemns Job for his words. God affirms Job for his words. Hm.

I tend to agree.
Each of Job's "friends" had something to say in an attempt to make Job feel guilty when he was in fact innocent.
Even his wife told him, "Curse God and die."

God blinks/winks/refuses to see sins, when the sins being committed are unknown.
Job was declared by God Himself to be righteous yet the bible says, "there are none righteous, no, not one."
Job was living his life in accordance to his understanding of God's will.
He even made sin sacrifices for his children on the off-hand chance they may have unknowingly committed sin.

But no human is infallible, omniscient. "All have sinned and fallen short."

In the end God said to him, "Did you make the mountains, did you set the borders of the seas, etc."?
Job realized his self righteous behavior and repented.
He came out the other side blessed by God with more wealth, more lands more servants, children that were more handsome and beautiful than before.
And he became a better person after realizing how self righteous he had become.

 

[Davidstarr]

It is not a trick question. He can say yes or not to either question. Or he can say yes to both, or no to both. I know yes or no questions are hard. You have to commit. Stating that a question is a straw man is just another way of avoiding the question, especially when it will reflect poorly on the man who has been placed on a pedestal.






It was a hard question, and Jesus answered it. Jesus didn't say it was a straw man's tactic to avoid the question.

Nope. You asked an "either or" question.

 

[tttallison]

Nope. You asked an "either or" question.

If you are going to answer for Christopher at least try to get it right. Christopher never answers the hard questions.

 

[Davidstarr]

If you are going to answer for Christopher at least try to get it right. Christopher never answers the hard questions.

I will not answer your question either.

 

[christophernyc]

One last thing, while I agree that Job was not suffering because he was a sinner (this is, in point of fact, one of the most important things that we learn from the Book of Job, yes? .. a point that was clearly lost on the Scribes, Pharisees, and even the Lord's disciples, in the 1st Century .. e.g. John 9).

Yes. Agreed. At the same time, I do not believe Job is someone who has never sinned. According to Job's own words, he knows himself to be a sinner.

Job 10:14
If I sin, then Thou markest me, and Thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.

Job knows God does not let him get away with sin. He clearly acknowledges that if and when he sins, God always holds him to account.

It's clear Job has learned how to turn away from his sin and turn to God whenever he's convicted. Also, God's testimony confirms this (twice) when God Himself states that Job fears God and turns away from evil.

But in the story of Job we read, we know Job has not sinned to incur his suffering. Every reader knows Job is not being punished for some sin. God's own words articulate this when God explicitly says Job's suffering is "without cause" in Job 2:3. This is obviously the part his 3 friends struggle with, but it should not confuse the readers of the story.

I hope to reply to the second part of your post separately. Thanks!

 

[tttallison]

Yes. Agreed. At the same time, I do not believe Job is someone who has never sinned. According to Job's own words, he knows himself to be a sinner.

Job 10:14
If I sin, then Thou markest me, and Thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.

Job knows God does not let him get away with sin. He clearly acknowledges that if and when he sins, God always holds him to account.

It's clear Job has learned how to turn away from his sin and turn to God whenever he's convicted. Also, God's testimony confirms this (twice) when God Himself states that Job fears God and turns away from evil.

But in the story of Job we read, we know Job has not sinned to incur his suffering. Every reader knows Job is not being punished for some sin. God's own words articulate this when God explicitly says Job's suffering is "without cause" in Job 2:3. This is obviously the part his 3 friends struggle with, but it should not confuse the readers of the story.

I hope to reply to the second part of your post separately. Thanks!

It does not say Job's suffering was without cause.

 

[Davidstarr]

It does not say Job's suffering was without cause.

Job 2:3 "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."
The Hebrew word is ḥinnām and means just what it says, without cause.

 

[tttallison]

Job 2:3 "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."
The Hebrew word is ḥinnām and means just what it says, without cause.

It does not say Job suffered without cause. It says Satan's motive for having God move against Job was without cause. Satan's motive was that Job would curse God to his face, and Job blessed God instead. That was the first test, and Job passed. It says nothing about why God allowed the test in the first place, and doesn't answer why God allowed a second test. God is omniscient and new Job would pass the first test. God also new that Job would fail the second test. The scripture never tells us what God's cause was for allowing the tests, but what we do know is that God knew the results before the tests took place.

 

[tttallison]

The following verse is a dilemma for many people. Job said, Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

If you hurt someone without a very good reason it is unjust. You can come to a number of conclusions. ----

1. That God is unjust.

2. That God is not the one doing this to Job.

3. That God has a cause.

4. You can supply the fourth possibility, because I don’t see one, and do not want to be charged with False Dilemma.

What could be a cause that would be justified? A dentist sometimes hurts people, in order to help them. Most people have a problem with this when it pertains to Job because they believe him to be righteous, but God never says Gob is righteous. God says Job is upright. The meaning here is that Job was attempting to hold to his view of morality. The problem here is that Job was without knowledge, therefore, his understanding of what was moral was flawed. God said Job was blameless, but what does that mean. Paul was blameless while he killed Christians, at least that is what Paul said. If you want to attack Paul for being incorrect you are on shaky ground.

What if God injured Job’s body in order to save Job’s soul? Would that be considered just?

 

[tttallison]

Two of Job’s Requests​

1. Job 6:9 Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off! Job 7:19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?

It seems like everyone gave Job a pass on this request. Would they give the same pass to Eliphaz if these words had come out of his mouth?

2. Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

Job states that there is no judge to stand between him and God. God hears this request of Job and fills it. Job didn’t want God for a judge because God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. Job wanted someone who was more like himself. It is interesting that Job makes two demands before he will speak. Job’s demands are repeated in two different chapters so that the reader might not overlook them.

The first demand is that God will take his rod away as found in chapter 9, and is repeated in chapter 13 with the variation that the rod becomes God’s hand. The second demand is that God will not terrify him as found in chapter 9, and is repeated in chapter 13 with the slight variation that God will not make him afraid.

In both chapters Job is saying that if his demands are met that he will speak.

Job 9:34-35 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

Job 13:21-22 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

Job requested a judge who would not make him afraid. This brings understanding to Elihu’s following statement.

Job 32:6 And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not shew you mine opinion.

It is amazing how Elihu fits the profile that Job requested. Listen to how Elihu answers the requests of Job.

Job 33:6-7 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.
Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.

Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.

God gave Job exactly what he demanded. The silence from Job after Elihu’s appearance is a very telling point. God had sent a man to stand in his place, and yet Job still couldn’t answer.

 

[Davidstarr]

I think the point is Job had no knowledge that he had done anything wrong.
Satan's persecutions during his troubles was an attempt to make Job do (or declare) something Job believed was not true.
Naturally, in the end, God showed Job he was not infallible. He did not create the world. He was not as righteous as Job thought he was.
His knowledge was not infallible, not omniscient.

Obviously it led to a humbling experience for Job. Led to him being more upright and righteous before God.

I bet that really stuck in Satan's craw....

 

[tttallison]

I think the point is Job had no knowledge that he had done anything wrong.

Do you mean that Job had no idea it was wrong to tell God that he was righteous, but God fell short because he would laugh at the trial of the innocent?

Job 40:8 Will you also disannul my judgment? will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?

Job 35:2 Think this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God's?

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Do you mean that Job had no Idea it was wrong to reprove God?

Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

What do you think about the lineup of what Job requested from God, and how Elihu complemented Job's statement in post 70?

 

[Davidstarr]

Do you mean that Job had no idea it was wrong to tell God that he was righteous, but God fell short because he would laugh at the trial of the innocent?

Job 40:8 Will you also disannul my judgment? will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?

Job 35:2 Think this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God's?

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Do you mean that Job had no Idea it was wrong to reprove God?

Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

What do you think about the lineup of what Job requested from God, and how Elihu complemented Job's statement in post 70?

Job was not omniscient.
So the answer to you questions is YES

But I do not believe that God thought it was funny watching Job endure those trials.

 

[tttallison]

Job was not omniscient.
So the answer to you questions is YES

But I do not believe that God thought it was funny watching Job endure those trials.

At five years old almost every child knows that there are repercussions for talking back. Can you not understand what you are saying when you defend Job for his bad behavior? Take Job off the pedestal and read the book with an unbiased approach and you will understand why Job suffered.

You did not answer when asked what you thought of the alignment of what Job requested of God, and the response of Elihu; Why not?