looking for help reconciling the Sabbath with common observation?

[GWH]

Sabbatarianism views the Sabbath law as mandatory for Christians despite the teaching of Paul in Col. 2:16-17 that it merely foreshadowed God’s rest of salvation as indicated in Heb. 3:7-4:11 and thus is part of the Levitical laws that were superseded by the Gospel (Heb. 7:11-10:1) and by the indwelling of Christ’s HS (Rom. 5:5, 8:1-15).

Because the NT does not affirm the Sabbath Law as it did the moral commands in the Ten Commandments, one needs to discern the correct doctrine for Christians by considering the following Scriptures.

1. God rested from His work and rested on the seventh day and made it holy per Gen. 2:2-3.

2. Moses promulgated the Sabbath law as the 4th of the Ten Commandments in Exo. 20:8-11, cf. Lev. 19:3&30, Deut. 5:12-15.

3. Solomon builds a temple for burnt offerings on the Sabbath in 2Chr. 2:4.

4. Isaiah said those are blessed who keep the Sabbath in Isa. 56:2-6.

5. Jeremiah commands keeping the Sabbath holy in Jer. 17:21-27.

6. Ezekiel referred to the Sabbaths in Ezek.20:12

7. Jesus declared he is Lord of the Sabbath and it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath in Matt. 12:1-12.

8. Jesus healed a crippled woman on the Sabbath in Luke 13:10-16.

If Jesus thought keeping the Sabbath was an important law, he would have affirmed it on these two occasions, but he did not specifically nullify it either, which jibes/harmonizes perfectly with Paul.

9. Paul taught that a person may rest on the Sabbath or not in Col. 2:16, Gal. 4:9-11 & Rom. 14:5.

10. Hebrews encourages Christians to enter God’s Sabbath rest by persevering faith in Heb. 3:7-4:11.

The primary sin per the NT is transgression of God's requirement for salvation (GRFS, Gal. 3:1-14), and secondary sins are transgression of Christ’s law (John 13:34), which summarizes the OT moral laws (Matt. 22:37-40) affirmed by the NT (Matt. 5:17-48) and calls them the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23), which does NOT include all 613 laws of Moses, such as those pertaining to mildew and infectious disease in Lev. 14.

Jesus fulfilled/accomplished the 613 Mosaic laws (Matt. 5:17-19) and taught that righteousness must surpass/supersede that of the Pharisees (Matt. 5:20) including Paul (Acts 22:3-5), to whom Jesus appeared, saying “Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you… I am sending you to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.”

Paul did just that when he preached to the folks (both Jews and Gentiles per Acts 14:1-5) in Galatia (Acts 13:49), encouraging them to remain true to the faith (Acts 14:22), which he reiterated in his epistle, beginning “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel, which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ… But if anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” (Gal. 1:3-9)

Paul stated the true gospel thusly, “I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ [the HS] lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved he and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness [holiness] could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

Paul may also have written Hebrews, which warns against not entering God’s Sabbath rest by not holding firmly until the end the confidence/faith in Christ (Heb. 3:14, 4:2). Heb. 7:11-10:1 begins as follows:

“If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood, why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also… The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless, for the law made nothing perfect, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. Such a high priest truly meets our need… the Son, who has been made perfect forever, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven… The ministry of Jesus has received is superior to the old one [of Moses], since the NC is established on better promises… God said, ‘The days are coming when I will make a new covenant’ [JR 31:31-34]. It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts… By calling this covenant ‘new’, he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.”

In this passage the Lord says that the OC including the Sabbath commandment is obsolete/superseded by the Gospel of Christ. Need God's Word say more?

 

[TMS]

So Jesus' work was incomplete? Your works aren't going to save you from future sins. Only Jesus can and did that. If you're relying on your own works to complete His work, you're definitely going to come up short.

I didn't say that we earn salvation.
We do not work to gain anything. It is a GIFT from Jesus.

But salvation from sin involves 3 parts.

All three are through faith in Jesus.

Justification. = the gift of Christ's righteous character. When we ask for forgiveness we will recieve a perfect clean slate as if we never sinned.
Repentance is the key.

Sanctification = the gift of Jesus living in us to overcome sin.. when we have faith in the power of Jesus, He give us victory.
The key is the power of the Holy Spirit.

Glorification = the gift of a new body. Jesus will restore us to our unfallen state. The key is to be saved.

The power comes from Jesus. We can not boast in anything good. But we are holding the door of our heart close or open to Jesus.

If your teaching that we can live in sin and hold onto sin and be Justified at the same time you are being fouled.

Many Churches are big on the cheap grace, Believe and your saved, doctrine.
But Jesus came to fully save us from sin. Not to save us IN OUR SIN.

Rom 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

 

[JemimaJade]

So biblical faith certainly involves trust, allegiance, and obedience, not just mental assent.

Yes…..And that trust and obedience has to transcend fear of man. No penalty imposed by man would shift that trust because of someone threatening torture or death.
We remember that whole families were placed in the arenas for the entertainment of the Roman crowds….Men and their wives and children were facing a horrible death by wild beasts, and could have walked free by placing a pinch of incense on the alter as an act of worship to the Emperor….rather than compromise, they chose death. Would we have had that kind of faith? Would we have it today?

The Revelation mentions “the mark of the beast”….without which one would be cut off from engaging in the “normal” activities of life…”no buying or selling” without the mark. The Bible tells us that we cannot take that mark….so we will have to rely on God to support us through the end of this world system of government.
Again…do we have that kind of faith?

Where I would make a distinction is that obedience is the fruit of genuine faith rather than the basis of salvation.

Faith in the shed blood of the Christ is the basis for salvation. Obedience, even if it means death, will test that faith to its limit. Many brave martyrs have gone before us….

In John's Gospel, those who truly believe in Christ follow Him, abide in Him, and obey Him.

How is that demonstrated? How well do people in the divided church system follow Christ, abide in him and obey him?

The moral codes of bygone eras have all but disappeared. Sex between unmarried people is condoned as “normal” in the world…are they “normal” for Christians though, just because the world no longer has a moral issue with that?

What about homosexuality these days? Are they entitled to be proud of what God is not? Where do such individuals stand with God if they want to be Christians and practicing homosexuals at the same time?
God does not condemn the person, but the actions committed.

What about “friendship with the world”…how would we define that? James tells us that “friendship with the world is enmity with God” (James 4:4)….do we understand why?

Do we understand who is ruling this world? (1 John 5:19)….and why he was given this authority? (Luke 4:5-7; John 18:36)
How many Christians are divided not only by denomination, but by politics? How many are devoted to their nation and would willingly give their lives for their country…whilst taking the lives of others…sometimes fellow Christians of another nation? (1 John 4:20-21) What happened to “thou shalt no kill”?

So I don't think we're looking at two different groups, "believers" and "obedient believers."

I don’t think so either…..what the Bible describes are Christians divided into two separate categories….a small finite group with a heavenly resurrection and a definite role description….(Rev 20:6) and an infinite “great crowd” of other Christians who will enjoy everlasting life on earth as God first purposed.

Rev 7:2-15…TLB…
“And I saw another angel coming from the east, carrying the Great Seal of the Living God. And he shouted out to those four angels who had been given power to injure earth and sea, “Wait! Don’t do anything yet—hurt neither earth nor sea nor trees—until we have placed the Seal of God upon the foreheads of his servants.” How many were given this mark? I heard the number—it was 144,000; out of all twelve tribes of Israel” . . . . So here are the first group…

“After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from all nations and provinces and languages, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white, with palm branches in their hands. And they were shouting with a mighty shout, “Salvation comes from our God upon the throne, and from the Lamb.”

The identity of this “vast crowd, too great to count, from all nations” are not Jews. They are standing before the throne clothed in white (denoting spiritual cleanliness) and they have palm branches in their hands, signifying their peaceful condition…..and they attributing salvation to and to the Lamb.
John asks who they are…

“Then one of the twenty-four Elders asked me, “Do you know who these are, who are clothed in white, and where they come from?” “No, sir,” I replied. “Please tell me.”“These are the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation,” he said; “they washed their robes and whitened them by the blood of the Lamb. That is why they are here before the throne of God, serving him day and night in his temple. The one sitting on the throne will shelter them”.

So these are the two groups….one numbered and the other uncounted…and all are ‘before the throne of God, serving in his Temple’.
Two separate groups with different destinies and different roles in God’s purpose for this earth and its future….the governors and the governed.

Where we still differ is that I don't see the second half narrowing the first half.

Both are stated with equal force IMO. The first part of John 3:16 is the reason and the promise ….and the second part is about the penalty for not accepting God’s means of salvation…there is only one.
And it involves the right voluntary choices on our part. We just have to understand what “believing” means in the Biblical context.

The verse tells us who receives the benefit of that love, but I don't think it redefines "world" to mean only a smaller group within humanity.

When Jesus spoke about the future, he said….
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
This tells us that not every person will make the right choices…the easy way is so much more appealing and you can enter through a wide gate which allows you to bring along all the baggage you want for the journey. The majority choose the easy way…but “few” choose the difficult road to life.

Then he goes on to say….
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matt 7. 13-14; 21-23 ESV)

So even calling yourself a Christian, and claiming that Jesus is your “Lord” won’t mean anything if you don’t have the right actions to back up your claim…..not even mighty works will do it.
Jesus’ stinging rebuke is “I never knew you”….NEVER means “not ever”….so let that sink in. Imagine what that will mean when that condemnation is delivered….people will be pleading that they were doing all the right things….how did they not know?

How are they “workers of lawlessness” whilst at the same time pretending to be Christians? Whose laws are they breaking?

 

[OMC]

Yes…..And that trust and obedience has to transcend fear of man. No penalty imposed by man would shift that trust because of someone threatening torture or death.
We remember that whole families were placed in the arenas for the entertainment of the Roman crowds….Men and their wives and children were facing a horrible death by wild beasts, and could have walked free by placing a pinch of incense on the alter as an act of worship to the Emperor….rather than compromise, they chose death. Would we have had that kind of faith? Would we have it today?

The Revelation mentions “the mark of the beast”….without which one would be cut off from engaging in the “normal” activities of life…”no buying or selling” without the mark. The Bible tells us that we cannot take that mark….so we will have to rely on God to support us through the end of this world system of government.
Again…do we have that kind of faith?

Faith in the shed blood of the Christ is the basis for salvation. Obedience, even if it means death, will test that faith to its limit. Many brave martyrs have gone before us….

How is that demonstrated? How well do people in the divided church system follow Christ, abide in him and obey him?

The moral codes of bygone eras have all but disappeared. Sex between unmarried people is condoned as “normal” in the world…are they “normal” for Christians though, just because the world no longer has a moral issue with that?

What about homosexuality these days? Are they entitled to be proud of what God is not? Where do such individuals stand with God if they want to be Christians and practicing homosexuals at the same time?
God does not condemn the person, but the actions committed.

What about “friendship with the world”…how would we define that? James tells us that “friendship with the world is enmity with God” (James 4:4)….do we understand why?

Do we understand who is ruling this world? (1 John 5:19)….and why he was given this authority? (Luke 4:5-7; John 18:36)
How many Christians are divided not only by denomination, but by politics? How many are devoted to their nation and would willingly give their lives for their country…whilst taking the lives of others…sometimes fellow Christians of another nation? (1 John 4:20-21) What happened to “thou shalt no kill”?

I don’t think so either…..what the Bible describes are Christians divided into two separate categories….a small finite group with a heavenly resurrection and a definite role description….(Rev 20:6) and an infinite “great crowd” of other Christians who will enjoy everlasting life on earth as God first purposed.

Rev 7:2-15…TLB…
“And I saw another angel coming from the east, carrying the Great Seal of the Living God. And he shouted out to those four angels who had been given power to injure earth and sea, “Wait! Don’t do anything yet—hurt neither earth nor sea nor trees—until we have placed the Seal of God upon the foreheads of his servants.” How many were given this mark? I heard the number—it was 144,000; out of all twelve tribes of Israel” . . . . So here are the first group…

“After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from all nations and provinces and languages, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white, with palm branches in their hands. And they were shouting with a mighty shout, “Salvation comes from our God upon the throne, and from the Lamb.”

I think we agree on more than we disagree.
I agree that biblical faith must be stronger than fear.
The examples you mentioned remind us that genuine faith is not just agreeing with a doctrine.
It is remaining loyal to Christ when obedience becomes costly.
Many believers throughout history paid for that loyalty with their lives.
I also agree that Jesus' warnings in Matthew 7 are sobering.
Merely saying "Lord, Lord" is not enough.
A profession of faith without a transformed life is worthless.
The New Testament repeatedly teaches that those who truly know Christ will bear fruit consistent with that profession.
Where I would hesitate is when we move from that truth to identifying two distinct classes of Christians with different eternal destinies.
I certainly agree that Revelation 7 presents both the 144,000 and the great multitude, but I'm not convinced the text explicitly says one group is the governing class in heaven while the other is the governed class on earth.
That's the point I would still want demonstrated from the text itself.
As for Matthew 7, I think the key phrase is: "I never knew you."
That's what has always stood out to me.
Jesus doesn't say, "I knew you once but no longer."
He says, "I never knew you."
These people had religious activity, impressive works, and public professions, but lacked a genuine relationship with Him.
So I completely agree that the narrow way involves more than verbal belief.
Genuine faith changes how we live.
My only caution is that we should let each passage define its own point before using it to establish a larger system.
On the central issue, though, we're in agreement: biblical faith is not mere intellectual assent.
It is trust in Christ that expresses itself in obedience.

 

[NightTwister]

I didn't say that we earn salvation.
We do not work to gain anything. It is a GIFT from Jesus.

But salvation from sin involves 3 parts.

All three are through faith in Jesus.

Justification. = the gift of Christ's righteous character. When we ask for forgiveness we will recieve a perfect clean slate as if we never sinned.
Repentance is the key.

Sanctification = the gift of Jesus living in us to overcome sin.. when we have faith in the power of Jesus, He give us victory.
The key is the power of the Holy Spirit.

Glorification = the gift of a new body. Jesus will restore us to our unfallen state. The key is to be saved.

The power comes from Jesus. We can not boast in anything good. But we are holding the door of our heart close or open to Jesus.

If your teaching that we can live in sin and hold onto sin and be Justified at the same time you are being fouled.

Many Churches are big on the cheap grace, Believe and your saved, doctrine.
But Jesus came to fully save us from sin. Not to save us IN OUR SIN.

Rom 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

I never said you can "live in sin", those are your words. Jesus saves us and keeps us, not saves us and then we keep us.

 

[mailmandan]

I never said you can "live in sin", those are your words. Jesus saves us and keeps us, not saves us and then we keep us.

What is it with all these "live in sin" accusations from certain folks on Christian Chat?

To live in sin is to practice sin as one's lifestyle or bent of life. We already know from 1 John 3:9 that no one who is born of God practices sin.

We already heard more than enough of these same types of "live in sin" accusations from ScooterJackson.