Here is a "quick" synopsis of it.
He and other teachers have written the books on it.......Long though. But worth it in my opinion.
Eternal Hell Is a Logical Lie
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He and other teachers have written the books on it.......Long though. But worth it in my opinion.
I've heard versions of that doctrine before, and I'd say there are parts of it that I find very compelling and other parts that I'd hold much more cautiously.
For example, I think Scripture clearly teaches a real conflict involving Satan, fallen angels, elect angels, and humanity.
Daniel 10, Job 1-2, Ephesians 6, Revelation 12, and 1 Corinthians 4:9 all point in that direction.
I also agree that angels are observing human history and that mankind plays a role in demonstrating God's wisdom and grace.
Where I start slowing down is when the doctrine moves from explicit biblical statements to reconstructing a detailed prehistoric history. For example:
Angels existing before man? Clearly taught.
Satan's fall? Clearly taught.
Angelic rebellion? Clearly taught.
Human history having some connection to that conflict? I think so.
But when we start talking about multiple angelic ranks being changed because of rewards, a rebuilt hierarchy of cherubim and seraphim, billions of years of prehistoric angelic civilization, or Genesis 1:2 being the result of a judgment on a pre-Adamic world, that's where I start asking whether the text actually says those things or whether we're inferring them.
That's not a criticism.
It's just the distinction I try to make between:
"This is what Scripture clearly teaches."
and "This is a model that attempts to connect the dots."
What I do find intriguing is the central idea that human history is about more than human history.
Paul says: "We are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men." (1 Cor. 4:9)
and Ephesians 3:10 speaks of God's wisdom being made known through the church to heavenly powers.
So yes, I think there is a genuine cosmic dimension to redemption.
I just tend to be cautious whenever the details begin to outrun the explicit statements of the text.
That's usually where I start asking, "How much of this is Scripture, and how much is our attempt to fill in the blanks?"
Eternal Hell Is a Logical Lie
So Jesus lied to us because the human intellect can't comprehend the Eternal place known as Hell?
"how can the punishment simultaneously require the sinner to remain alive, conscious, and suffering forever?"
How? Because God created it that way .
Jesus teaches that hell is a place of eternal punishment, emphasizing its permanence in several biblical passages. He often describes it as a state of unquenchable fire and separation from God, indicating that the consequences of rejecting Him are everlasting
- Eternal Punishment — Jesus states that the wicked will face eternal punishment, paralleling the eternal life of the righteous (Matthew 25:46).
- Unquenchable Fire — He describes hell as a place of unquenchable fire, emphasizing its severity and permanence.
- Separation from God — Jesus indicates that hell represents eternal separation from God and all goodness, a profound consequence for rejecting divine salvation.
- Warnings Against Sin — He warns that it is better to lose a part of oneself than to be cast into hell, where suffering is unending.
So when we say "eternal punishment," what are we thinking? Well, I like what this said. "Many Christian traditions view eternity as an unending extension of linear time—meaning God's reign continues forever and ever into the future"
To know, this is so heavily debated. Theological debates have run for decades. Forever. We apply to traditional concepts of eternal suffering, like the prolonged agony, and all the suffering that goes on in this life. For us, an eternal punishment the endless conscious torment we would never allow that, so how could God do it. Read it again, what you wrote. Within it, there's a personal view that stands out. It's human logic. So much of this is speculation because it's not written, thus the theological debates. We read "forever," "eternity," as if God is talking about time linearly. To be out side of time what's forever? What's Eternity. Forever is in time, eternity is outside.
We don't see this as God does. How many times have you had somebody you know die? If they know God, before Christ came, died, they were just sleeping. The 12 didn't understand Christ when he said, "Sleeping." He said, "Lazarus is dead." There is no Christian that has died. Christ is the only one that died. We don't taste death. So do you see death or do you see life? You never taste death. So there is no logic to this. If you're looking at this through man's eyes, man's understanding, you're never going to see the truth. Truth. God is a spirit. God has always been. Explain it. We can't. We don't understand it. We can't fathom it. The fact that Satan's tossed in a pit that's bottomless. To be funny, the best I can come up with is the clip I saw of Loki saying, "I've been falling for 30 minutes." Sorry
For me, in the life that I've had so far, the part of him I know, I don't get stuck on this. He's not the author of sickness, nor disease, nor suffering. Sickness. When it comes to punishment, it's like saying, "God, how can you send all these people to hell?"He told me, exact words, "For God so loved the world, everyone has a choice."God doesn't send anyone to hell. That person made that choice. That means they knew. They fully understood that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, died on the cross for the world's sin, was buried, and rose at the third day. He is the only way to the Father. They know by rejecting that, they're going to be away from God forever, and they want that.
Those are they that are lost forever, or eternity. Exactly. They're outside of time. We think of it as forever burning in fire, the torment. We don't understand eternity without time. Just stand there where there's no sun, no moon. There's never a day, there's never a night. It is eternity. It's been 2,000 years since Christ died and rose. Jesus Christ said the Father sent him to die for the world's sin, for God so loves the world. There is never going to be one person in the lake of fire that does not want to be there.
So you're just one of hundreds of thousands that disagree in eternal hell. And you've used the word to back up your personal view. Forgive me.
To know, this is so heavily debated. Theological debates have run for decades. Forever. We apply to traditional concepts of eternal suffering, like the prolonged agony, and all the suffering that goes on in this life. For us, an eternal punishment the endless conscious torment we would never allow that, so how could God do it. Read it again, what you wrote. Within it, there's a personal view that stands out. It's human logic. So much of this is speculation because it's not written, thus the theological debates. We read "forever," "eternity," as if God is talking about time linearly. To be out side of time what's forever? What's Eternity. Forever is in time, eternity is outside.
We don't see this as God does. How many times have you had somebody you know die? If they know God, before Christ came, died, they were just sleeping. The 12 didn't understand Christ when he said, "Sleeping." He said, "Lazarus is dead." There is no Christian that has died. Christ is the only one that died. We don't taste death. So do you see death or do you see life? You never taste death. So there is no logic to this. If you're looking at this through man's eyes, man's understanding, you're never going to see the truth. Truth. God is a spirit. God has always been. Explain it. We can't. We don't understand it. We can't fathom it. The fact that Satan's tossed in a pit that's bottomless. To be funny, the best I can come up with is the clip I saw of Loki saying, "I've been falling for 30 minutes." Sorry
For me, in the life that I've had so far, the part of him I know, I don't get stuck on this. He's not the author of sickness, nor disease, nor suffering. Sickness. When it comes to punishment, it's like saying, "God, how can you send all these people to hell?"He told me, exact words, "For God so loved the world, everyone has a choice."God doesn't send anyone to hell. That person made that choice. That means they knew. They fully understood that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, died on the cross for the world's sin, was buried, and rose at the third day. He is the only way to the Father. They know by rejecting that, they're going to be away from God forever, and they want that.
Those are they that are lost forever, or eternity. Exactly. They're outside of time. We think of it as forever burning in fire, the torment. We don't understand eternity without time. Just stand there where there's no sun, no moon. There's never a day, there's never a night. It is eternity. It's been 2,000 years since Christ died and rose. Jesus Christ said the Father sent him to die for the world's sin, for God so loves the world. There is never going to be one person in the lake of fire that does not want to be there.
So you're just one of hundreds of thousands that disagree in eternal hell. And you've used the word to back up your personal view. Forgive me.
I think you raise an important question by saying "We read forever,, eternity, as if God is talking about time linearly. To be out side of time, what's forever? What's Eternity? Forever is in time, eternity is outside."
I tend to think it is impossible for us to conceive of non-linear time, but I believe eternity will not become boring--
which is how I describe hell in this song:
https://groovykerygma.bandcamp.com/track/late-last-night-revelation
Not many like to think of someone being tormented day and night forever, but who is referenced in the following passage?
Revelation 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
The same "who" who is referenced in the following passages: Rom. 2:5-11, John 17:12, Rom. 9:22, Gal. 6:8, Phil. 3:19, 2Thes. 1:9, 2Pet. 3:7 & Rev. 20:13-14.
Thus, harmonizing the passages is needed. The way I do so is in the following:
Evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules.
The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (Matt. 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever.
Hell is eternal punishMENT, not eternal punishING, because eternal torment would be warranted only for those whose sins were infinite, which is impossible for temporal mortals (so Satan’s sojourn in hell will seem eternal, assuming his sin/rebellion preceded sinful humanity by eons.)
YOUR harmonization?
The question is whether Jesus intended His hearers to understand eternal punishment as eternal conscious suffering, or as irreversible destruction whose consequences are eternal.
Not, "either Jesus taught eternal conscious torment or He lied."
I think everyone in the discussion agrees that Jesus told the truth.
Where the debate becomes difficult is that Scripture uses multiple descriptions:
eternal punishment
unquenchable fire
destruction
perish
second death
their worm dieth not
smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever
The challenge is determining how all of those passages fit together.
Allow scripture to define itself through the first mention principle.
Genesis 41:36 And that food shall be for store to the land against the seven years of famine, which shall be in the land of Egypt; that the land perish not through the famine.
Would the land cease to exist, annihilated? Or cease to yield life as intended?
Are we sure the first mention of the English word "perish" determines the meaning of every later use, or should each context define how the word is being used?
In Genesis 41:36, the land is said to "perish" through famine, yet the land itself is not the object being destroyed.
The point is that Egypt would suffer ruin and devastation if food were not stored.
But when Jesus says, "Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10:28), or when Paul speaks of those who "shall be punished with everlasting destruction" (2 Thess. 1:9), the context is different.
So the real question is not whether perish can mean something other than cessation. Clearly it can.
The question is whether passages about final judgment define perish, destroy, death, and punishment as conscious existence in torment or as the loss of life itself.
To stay with Scripture, where do we first see Jesus explain His own language of "destroy," "perish," and "death" in relation to final judgment?
Shouldn't those passages have greater interpretive weight than a famine text about the land of Egypt?
That seems to be the assumption that needs examination.
Everybody gives their opinion, but mine cited Scriptural support.
What is your harmonization and Scriptural support?
"As you stated" was a straw horse, because you (intentionally?) omitted "after justice is attained".
Thus, the "many people" quote should be, "...tomorrow we die and are justly tormented in hell".
The concept of "annihilation" as originally formulated and understood by the meaning of the Latin words, does not exist in scripture therefore this whole discussion is moot IMO.
Hell is described as, but not limited to:
Everlasting Fire - (Matt. 25:41) Why is the fire everlasting?
Everlasting Burnings - (Isa. 33:14)
A Furnace of Fire - (Matt. 13:42,50) Wailing and gnashing of teeth from those who are annhilated?
A Lake of Fire - (Rev. 20:15)
Fire and Brimstone - (Rev. 14:10)
Unquenchable Fire - (Matt. 3:12)
Do you believe Luke 16 is a metaphor, or literal?
Does the fact that the word annihilation isn't in Scripture really settle the issue?
The word may not be there, but the real question is what the biblical terms mean.
When Scripture talks about the wicked perishing, being destroyed, dying the second death, or facing everlasting destruction, what picture is it actually giving us?
In the same way, we use words like Trinity even though the term itself isn't found in Scripture.
The important thing is whether the concept is taught by the text.
So maybe the discussion isn't really about the label annihilation.
It's about what Jesus, Paul, and the other writers meant when they used words like death, perish, and destroy.
That's where I'd want to focus.
The word may not be there, but the real question is what the biblical terms mean.
When Scripture talks about the wicked perishing, being destroyed, dying the second death, or facing everlasting destruction, what picture is it actually giving us?
In the same way, we use words like Trinity even though the term itself isn't found in Scripture.
The important thing is whether the concept is taught by the text.
So maybe the discussion isn't really about the label annihilation.
It's about what Jesus, Paul, and the other writers meant when they used words like death, perish, and destroy.
That's where I'd want to focus.