Literal or metaphoric ?

[Raistlin]

Here is the greatest scriptural argument against literal time allotments. But does it stand under scrutiny?

2 Peter 3:8
> But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Looks convincing when quoted like this doesn't it.
But what is the message?
Is God actually talking about literal or metaphoric understanding concerning time spans given?
Or is He speaking of something else all together?
Well it is easy to find out. We just need to read the message in context with the subject matter.

This is how the written Word begins this subject:

2 Peter ch 3
2 > That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the Apostles of the Lord and Savior:

So we are being told to listen (be mindful) to Gods word through His holy prophets.
Not professor so and so's word, or doctor this and that's word, but to listen to gods Word only, ONLY listen through His established and proven prophets.
NOT future prophets/teachers to come, but His established bona fide prophets.
Nothing to do with literal/metaphoric debate here.
Strike one.
The subject continues unbroken:

3 > Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Walking after their own lusts.
Lusts here means their own desires, or intentions.
So instead of listening to God, they are promoting their own agendas/interpretations/philosophies.
So God is revealing certain men and their hearts who are not His holy prophets, speaking out of their own interpretations/philosophies, be they Christian or some other.
No literal/metaphoric debate here.
Strike two.
The subject continues unbroken:

4 >And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.

Ah, here is the crux.
This is the main point of discussion which is prompting Gods reply.
Men are saying that because so much time has passed, this is proof in itself that there is no God. How can it take so long for God to fulfill His promises? As though time is the underlying factor to undo the written Words credibility.
No literal metaphoric debate here.
Strike three.
The subject continues unbroken:

5 >For this they are willingly ignorant of, that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water,

6 > Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished;

So God is revealing, that even the old world, before and since men came to existence, served its time span before its judgment fell...elapsed time was no hindrance on the outcome.
No literal/metaphoric debate here.
Strike four.
The subject continues unbroken:

7 >But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Here God is comparing the outcome of the old world in regards to this one of ours. That the elapsed time in no way plays bearing against His promises, nor disproves His existence.
That the end will come regardless of the years passed before the outcome is heralded.
No literal/metaphoric debate here.
Strike five.
The subject continues unbroken:

Now the famous reply:

8 >But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So now, in context, and concerning the unbroken flow of subject matter, concerning the reason for Gods reply to the argument in mens hearts which was this:

"And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation".

Now we can see the reason behind the wording of this Gods reply to that argument :

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day".

Again:
"And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation".

Reply:
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day".

So God is just telling us that time has no effect on Him. He does not age as men do, that even a billion man years would still be as one day to Him. He is saying don't let their argument put doubt into our hearts. Elapsed time only affects us. Not God. He will still be here in a trillion trillion years and beyond.
NOTHING to do with literal/metaphoric scriptural understanding at all. Nothing .
God is replying to an argument concerning elapsed time used in a discrediting way.
Strike six and out.

Now Ezekiel.
To save writing a huge post, lets be logical as to why God was metaphoric here.
Ezekiel was a man, he was mortal.
God was telling Ezekiel that he must lie on each side of his body for a set time to represent a time span.
Notice God declared that it was metaphoric?
He made sure that was clear, that He was being metaphoric.
So if He declares it here, what does that imply?
It implies, that when something is metaphoric, God will declare it. and all other times, He is obviously being literal, otherwise He would tell us.
This is consistent with His personality, He never changes.

So why was God metaphoric here?
Look at Ezekiel 4:4-6.
Each day for a year.
Add them up.
Lie on his left side for 390 days for Israel (390 years)
And on his right side 40 days for Judah (40 years)
That's 430 years!!
Do you think Ezekiel lived that long?
Of course not.
Simply a logical reason as to why God had to be metaphoric.

And this is all they got in their arsenal.
Two easily explained scriptures.
But will they listen?
That's up to God.

 

[WordGaurdian]

Great.

Time to discover whether literal or metaphoric what the intention was of your thread.
For in some cases God said throw in a stick and meant it literally and in some cases He used parables in which He was being metaphorical. Any High School student can get that. But to what end must we take every verse, for to one in his life's journey at that moment that scripture could be literal and to the other it would be a metaphor. You would read a scripture and understand it in a certain way and in 5 years totally different.

Hence it is by listening to God that we understand what He wish to teach us daily. But I still fail to understand to what edification your thread is leading. Are you winning an argument... ok. But is it edifying a young or old Christian to develop spiritually? Have you received any inspiration from the Holy Spirit as to the end of your argument or is it merely your own satisfactory that you could win the argument concerning what you believe at this moment?

If not edification, is it perhaps warning... but yet again I fail to see to what Spiritual Growth this hinders. For it is not whether God speaks in a metaphor or in the literal sense that is important but that you abide in listening when He does speak...

If not edification or warning, then perhaps it is motivation... however I fail to understand how this would motivate Spiritual development in a Christian.

Care to help out?

 

[Raistlin]

Great.

Time to discover whether literal or metaphoric what the intention was of your thread.

For in some cases God said throw in a stick and meant it literally and in some cases He used parables in which He was being metaphorical. Any High School student can get that. But to what end must we take every verse, for to one in his life's journey at that moment that scripture could be literal and to the other it would be a metaphor. You would read a scripture and understand it in a certain way and in 5 years totally different.

Hence it is by listening to God that we understand what He wish to teach us daily. But I still fail to understand to what edification your thread is leading. Are you winning an argument... ok. But is it edifying a young or old Christian to develop spiritually? Have you received any inspiration from the Holy Spirit as to the end of your argument or is it merely your own satisfactory that you could win the argument concerning what you believe at this moment?

If not edification, is it perhaps warning... but yet again I fail to see to what Spiritual Growth this hinders. For it is not whether God speaks in a metaphor or in the literal sense that is important but that you abide in listening when He does speak...

If not edification or warning, then perhaps it is motivation... however I fail to understand how this would motivate Spiritual development in a Christian.

Care to help out?

When dealing with time, God is literal unless He specifies that He is being metaphoric as we see in Ezekiel. These are the two main scriptures millennial deniers use to justify ignoring Gods plain speech denoting it as metaphoric so as to uphold a doctrine that clashes with scripture.

This is very important and has nothing to do with self justification.

It is to do with upholding scripture and this subject does not change with ones personal growth/understanding as you alluded to.

When God says His Son will reign in an millennial 1000 year kingdom, He means a literal thousand year kingdom.

I was showing how those who deny this and yet use 2 Peter 3:8 as an example, are not justified in using that scripture at all. Nor the Ezekiel one for that matter.

Therefore i am listening to my lord.
I would call this of utmost importance to the growth of any Christian. Lest they be tossed to and fro by erroneous doctrines, wouldn't you...WordGuardian?.

 

[WordGaurdian]

When dealing with time, God is literal unless He specifies that He is being metaphoric as we see in Ezekiel. These are the two main scriptures millennial deniers use to justify ignoring Gods plain speech denoting it as metaphoric so as to uphold a doctrine that clashes with scripture.

This is very important and has nothing to do with self justification.

It is to do with upholding scripture and this subject does not change with ones personal growth/understanding as you alluded to.

When God says His Son will reign in an millennial 1000 year kingdom, He means a literal thousand year kingdom.

I was showing how those who deny this and yet use 2 Peter 3:8 as an example, are not justified in using that scripture at all. Nor the Ezekiel one for that matter.

Therefore i am listening to my lord.
I would call this of utmost importance to the growth of any Christian. Lest they be tossed to and fro by erroneous doctrines, wouldn't you...WordGuardian?.

Not really, but for the sake of argument. Let's investigate this. You are referring to the Scriptures in Revelation 20 I pressume. It says there that there are going to be those that live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. I always hoped to be one of them.

Imagine living for a thousand years. Just think of all the experience one can acquire and how many people you can help. How many miracles of Jesus you can witness. Its gonna be awesome.

But you know what would be even better. Living for one day with Christ in total understanding and freedom.
Every single day is a blessing that must be lived. And if not lived with Christ the usefullness of a thousand years is null and void.

I have a saying: And know it is not scriptural or anything. It is purely something I say.

Live every day as if you have a thousand years left. Live every second as if this day is your last.

I am glad you are Listening to God's voice. For that my friend is the most important task which we must do. Teach others how to hear the voice of God. For if they can follow God and hear His instructions our purpose would become less and less with them. For God Himself would teach them. But if they cannot hear, how will they find their way to the Kingdom of God. Being saved for some is enough sure...but if people were to understand the Kingdom again as the disciples of Jesus did, well I would say that is the third most important task. The second is of course to truly love our fellow man.

But coming back to your concept (sorry was trailing a bit there). I do believe it is important that one should know that everything will end one day. And that it is planned. However, to many people have so many ideas and even argue about it, but then they forget the five most important tasks in their church. The three I mentioned and of course going out to places and reaching people and discipling them.

When was the last time you heard of a church that went into the mall preaching Jesus. Nope. These days people sit in their churches and expect that all the sinners would come to them eventually. If someone stay away from church they don't pick up the phone and call him and go visit him and see if everything is ok. Nope. They would rather start to talk badly about him and scorn him for not coming to church regularly.

Again trailing... sorry... it is just that we are so far behind. Most people don't even know how to walk up to a person and heal him. ( I'm talking about a Christian of course). Most people sitting in the churches for 20 years don't know how to use the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They can quote to you scripture like you wouldn't believe. But it is like a history book. Not like CNN LIVE. They just know ABOUT it. Just just know God can heal because they read it in the Bible, not because they have witnessed someone get healed underneath their hands...and yet their very own Bible states...if someone is sick take them to the elders that is strong in faith, anoint them with oil and let them be healed.

I wish I could set up a poll on this site asking how people have actually experience God using either healing or prophecy or so on with them and how frequent was it within this year.

Cause think about it. If you were an unbeliever. And I told you that God was real. You would go like nope. And I would show you that God heals. And you would kinda look like one of those cartoons whose eyes pop out, but then you would be shaken in your unbelief, cause how did God heal if He doesn't exist?
Or I would give you a prophecy of certain things, identifying them in your life, but it is the first time I met you. Then you would ask how I know, I would simply say God told me. And you would go like...how can God reveal to him things I never told anybody if God doesn't exist?

Hence the reason why we need to understand the Kingdom of God...

Not that your statement isn't important. But if you hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. You could simply ask Him if whatever a person saying is true or false. And most of the time God would reveal what is needed to be said either for the completion of the argument or how to help the person onto understanding the requirements of his salvation.

For false prophets are also people, and a lot of them can be saved to, and then they might even become true prophets Not necessarily, but it might be.

Whether we live a thousand years or not is unimportant if you are not willing to die for Christ and be beheaded or worse according to Rev 20. So what is more important. Teaching a person how to have fervent faith (because they know they can rely and trust on God, because God has been with them and talking with them right throughout their lives and perhaps even their beheading or death like Stephen when he was stoned stating that he saw heaven open and seeing God). This I would consider more important.

For no one knows when the fullness of the end time is going to come. However we do know life has also got its own set of punches lined up. And if you don't have faith. Life itself can blow you down. For people are quick to cry out for a saviour if they are in trouble. But not so much if they do not know that they are in trouble. If everything feels nice and comfortable and nobody critisizes you. Everybody praise you. Yup. Then you know you are REALLY in trouble.

So whether or not people are going to live a thousand years or a day? What aid could that possibly give to people. HOW is it going to make you grow in Spirit. For instance... how is it going to help you to discern between right and wrong in your daily life? How is it going to help you to spread the gospel on a daily basis. Sure it is interesting to talk about. And people can theorise about it any many many ways. For people are quite fond of theorising I've noticed. But it still doesn't aid.

Jesus said...seek first the Kingdom of God and His Rightiousness :
Do you honestly think it would have made any difference to Paul if they told him he was going to go in chains to Rome, A chariot of Victory or getting speared and dragged through the streets...? No, Why? Cause He understood how the Kingdom of God works.

I have no idea, why I am so concerned about this when I am talking to you. Maybe I see hope. How much do you think people are REALLY willing to sacrifice for God? For if they aren't willing it won't matter whether or not it is a day or a thousand days or a million years...

Well before I start trailing again, I 'm going to greet you. I've got to see a friend of mine.

Blessings.

 

[AnandaHya]

When dealing with time, God is literal unless He specifies that He is being metaphoric as we see in Ezekiel. These are the two main scriptures millennial deniers use to justify ignoring Gods plain speech denoting it as metaphoric so as to uphold a doctrine that clashes with scripture.

This is very important and has nothing to do with self justification.

It is to do with upholding scripture and this subject does not change with ones personal growth/understanding as you alluded to.

When God says His Son will reign in an millennial 1000 year kingdom, He means a literal thousand year kingdom.

I was showing how those who deny this and yet use 2 Peter 3:8 as an example, are not justified in using that scripture at all. Nor the Ezekiel one for that matter.

Therefore i am listening to my lord.
I would call this of utmost importance to the growth of any Christian. Lest they be tossed to and fro by erroneous doctrines, wouldn't you...WordGuardian?.

Jesus reigns NOW and Forever.

the 1000 year thing is how long Satan is bound from deceiving the nations

people who reign with Jesus DIED for their testimony of Jesus. This happened in the 1st century though people want to believe its for them but they don't get resurrected until AFTER the 1000 years. God says this.

Revelation
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Everyone still dies and gives birth during this time and when Satan is released they are still easily deceived. Even though people had JESUS walking among them on this Earth they still rejected Him. They will still do so when He reigns in Earth. that is why there needs to be a Great White Throne Judgement day after Jesus destroys Satan for good.

there will be sinners AND saints standing before Jesus and that is when He will separate the sheep and the goats and destroy the world and replace it with a NEW heaven and NEW Earth.

if you insist on a literal interpertation of 1000 years, I insist a literal intepertation on this GENERATION in Matthew 24: 34

then i insist on asking if we are in the time when Satan is released after being bound how would that change your view of the world?

 

[Abiding]

When dealing with time, God is literal unless He specifies that He is being metaphoric as we see in Ezekiel. These are the two main scriptures millennial deniers use to justify ignoring Gods plain speech denoting it as metaphoric so as to uphold a doctrine that clashes with scripture.

This is very important and has nothing to do with self justification.

It is to do with upholding scripture and this subject does not change with ones personal growth/understanding as you alluded to.

When God says His Son will reign in an millennial 1000 year kingdom, He means a literal thousand year kingdom.

I was showing how those who deny this and yet use 2 Peter 3:8 as an example, are not justified in using that scripture at all. Nor the Ezekiel one for that matter.

Therefore i am listening to my lord.
I would call this of utmost importance to the growth of any Christian. Lest they be tossed to and fro by erroneous doctrines, wouldn't you...WordGuardian?.

Why does Peter go on and tell us we are looking for the new heavens and new earth?
Why would the Holyspirit not tell us we look for a 1000 yr kingdom on earth?
Isnt that a little bit strange to leave out something like that? Especially in this context.

Another thing...i see your point of view...thing is God has used metaphoric or literal
language anywhere and anytime He has chosen...the rule you imply is not there. Im
sure all sides would have liked that to be so...but it just isnt so.

 

[WordGaurdian]

Hi AnandaHya

Thanks again for last night. I was just beat. I appreciate your prayers.

I just got a curious question... seeing that you and Raistlin is having some kind of indifference?

I'm still trying to figure out the reasoning behind what your indifference is exactly about so forgive me if I seem a bit clueless.

So if you don't mind... I'll just go with your text and then explain what I miss, and you can fill me in as to what you mean or saying.

Jesus reigns NOW and Forever. - Still with you here.
the 1000 year thing is how long Satan is bound from deceiving the nations.
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. - Still with you here

people who reign with Jesus DIED for their testimony of Jesus.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
I can see where you come from...saying that they DIED for their testimony. But one could also say those that withstood the deception of the BEAST, and didn't receive the MARK etc.

And we can see this, because it is written here...
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Which implies those that are dead...yes and those that are quickened.

So in verse 4 it is written those people will then live and reign with Christ for a thousand years.
Still with you up to here.

This happened in the 1st century though people want to believe its for them but they don't get resurrected until AFTER the 1000 years. God says this.


Lost you. If it happened in the 1st century, (being the second coming of Christ) He would live a thousand years with them. One would think that someone would have notice that Christ lives amongst us with all His people that are priests and they all live a thousand years.

if you insist on a literal interpertation of 1000 years, I insist a literal intepertation on this GENERATION in Matthew 24: 34

Coming to this verse... it says
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

One could also ADD these verses...
Joh 21:20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
Joh 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Joh 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
Joh 21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

So here is the question... what exactly did Jesus mean by that. Is there someone around here that is over 2000 years old...please I'd really like to meet you.

 

[WeStand]

Here is the greatest scriptural argument against literal time allotments. But does it stand under scrutiny?

2 Peter 3:8
> But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Looks convincing when quoted like this doesn't it.
But what is the message?
Is God actually talking about literal or metaphoric understanding concerning time spans given?
Or is He speaking of something else all together?
Well it is easy to find out. We just need to read the message in context with the subject matter.

This is how the written Word begins this subject:

2 Peter ch 3
2 > That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the Apostles of the Lord and Savior:

So we are being told to listen (be mindful) to Gods word through His holy prophets.
Not professor so and so's word, or doctor this and that's word, but to listen to gods Word only, ONLY listen through His established and proven prophets.
NOT future prophets/teachers to come, but His established bona fide prophets.
Nothing to do with literal/metaphoric debate here.
Strike one.
The subject continues unbroken:

3 > Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Walking after their own lusts.
Lusts here means their own desires, or intentions.
So instead of listening to God, they are promoting their own agendas/interpretations/philosophies.
So God is revealing certain men and their hearts who are not His holy prophets, speaking out of their own interpretations/philosophies, be they Christian or some other.
No literal/metaphoric debate here.
Strike two.
The subject continues unbroken:

4 >And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.

Ah, here is the crux.
This is the main point of discussion which is prompting Gods reply.
Men are saying that because so much time has passed, this is proof in itself that there is no God. How can it take so long for God to fulfill His promises? As though time is the underlying factor to undo the written Words credibility.
No literal metaphoric debate here.
Strike three.
The subject continues unbroken:

5 >For this they are willingly ignorant of, that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water,

6 > Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished;

So God is revealing, that even the old world, before and since men came to existence, served its time span before its judgment fell...elapsed time was no hindrance on the outcome.
No literal/metaphoric debate here.
Strike four.
The subject continues unbroken:

7 >But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Here God is comparing the outcome of the old world in regards to this one of ours. That the elapsed time in no way plays bearing against His promises, nor disproves His existence.
That the end will come regardless of the years passed before the outcome is heralded.
No literal/metaphoric debate here.
Strike five.
The subject continues unbroken:

Now the famous reply:

8 >But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So now, in context, and concerning the unbroken flow of subject matter, concerning the reason for Gods reply to the argument in mens hearts which was this:

"And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation".

Now we can see the reason behind the wording of this Gods reply to that argument :

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day".

Again:
"And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation".

Reply:
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day".

So God is just telling us that time has no effect on Him. He does not age as men do, that even a billion man years would still be as one day to Him. He is saying don't let their argument put doubt into our hearts. Elapsed time only affects us. Not God. He will still be here in a trillion trillion years and beyond.
NOTHING to do with literal/metaphoric scriptural understanding at all. Nothing .
God is replying to an argument concerning elapsed time used in a discrediting way.
Strike six and out.

Now Ezekiel.
To save writing a huge post, lets be logical as to why God was metaphoric here.
Ezekiel was a man, he was mortal.
God was telling Ezekiel that he must lie on each side of his body for a set time to represent a time span.
Notice God declared that it was metaphoric?
He made sure that was clear, that He was being metaphoric.
So if He declares it here, what does that imply?
It implies, that when something is metaphoric, God will declare it. and all other times, He is obviously being literal, otherwise He would tell us.
This is consistent with His personality, He never changes.

So why was God metaphoric here?
Look at Ezekiel 4:4-6.
Each day for a year.
Add them up.
Lie on his left side for 390 days for Israel (390 years)
And on his right side 40 days for Judah (40 years)
That's 430 years!!
Do you think Ezekiel lived that long?
Of course not.
Simply a logical reason as to why God had to be metaphoric.

And this is all they got in their arsenal.
Two easily explained scriptures.
But will they listen?
That's up to God.

To me its incredible, the efforts some people put into spreading lie's; pretending to be a christain

God's Word according to the religon of Raisin-line

You say beleive the established Prophet's, then turn around and Deny them

What about THE ESTABLISHED prophet that cried earnestly with tears; for THE PEOPLE, not himself, for 32 years (or is that metaphoric?)

And when GOD shows up; God tells him to hang on to his diaper for a minute; that satan was throwing a tantrum, and Micheal could not restrain him without the Fathers Help.

And there WAS war in Heaven for about the space of an HOUR. (or is that metaphoric too)

You should get your FACTS straight, BEFORE stating something as TRUTH.

Forever in Christ

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is the greatest scriptural argument against literal time allotments. But does it stand under scrutiny?

2 Peter 3:8
> But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Looks convincing when quoted like this doesn't it.
But what is the message?
Is God actually talking about literal or metaphoric understanding concerning time spans given?
Or is He speaking of something else all together?
Well it is easy to find out. We just need to read the message in context with the subject matter.

This is how the written Word begins this subject:

2 Peter ch 3
2 > That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the Apostles of the Lord and Savior:

So we are being told to listen (be mindful) to Gods word through His holy prophets.
Not professor so and so's word, or doctor this and that's word, but to listen to gods Word only, ONLY listen through His established and proven prophets.
NOT future prophets/teachers to come, but His established bona fide prophets.
Nothing to do with literal/metaphoric debate here.
Strike one.
The subject continues unbroken:

3 > Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Walking after their own lusts.
Lusts here means their own desires, or intentions.
So instead of listening to God, they are promoting their own agendas/interpretations/philosophies.
So God is revealing certain men and their hearts who are not His holy prophets, speaking out of their own interpretations/philosophies, be they Christian or some other.
No literal/metaphoric debate here.
Strike two.
The subject continues unbroken:

4 >And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.

Ah, here is the crux.
This is the main point of discussion which is prompting Gods reply.
Men are saying that because so much time has passed, this is proof in itself that there is no God. How can it take so long for God to fulfill His promises? As though time is the underlying factor to undo the written Words credibility.
No literal metaphoric debate here.
Strike three.
The subject continues unbroken:

5 >For this they are willingly ignorant of, that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water,

6 > Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished;

So God is revealing, that even the old world, before and since men came to existence, served its time span before its judgment fell...elapsed time was no hindrance on the outcome.
No literal/metaphoric debate here.
Strike four.
The subject continues unbroken:

7 >But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Here God is comparing the outcome of the old world in regards to this one of ours. That the elapsed time in no way plays bearing against His promises, nor disproves His existence.
That the end will come regardless of the years passed before the outcome is heralded.
No literal/metaphoric debate here.
Strike five.
The subject continues unbroken:

Now the famous reply:

8 >But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So now, in context, and concerning the unbroken flow of subject matter, concerning the reason for Gods reply to the argument in mens hearts which was this:

"And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation".

Now we can see the reason behind the wording of this Gods reply to that argument :

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day".

Again:
"And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation".

Reply:
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day".

So God is just telling us that time has no effect on Him. He does not age as men do, that even a billion man years would still be as one day to Him. He is saying don't let their argument put doubt into our hearts. Elapsed time only affects us. Not God. He will still be here in a trillion trillion years and beyond.
NOTHING to do with literal/metaphoric scriptural understanding at all. Nothing .
God is replying to an argument concerning elapsed time used in a discrediting way.
Strike six and out.

Now Ezekiel.
To save writing a huge post, lets be logical as to why God was metaphoric here.
Ezekiel was a man, he was mortal.
God was telling Ezekiel that he must lie on each side of his body for a set time to represent a time span.
Notice God declared that it was metaphoric?
He made sure that was clear, that He was being metaphoric.
So if He declares it here, what does that imply?
It implies, that when something is metaphoric, God will declare it. and all other times, He is obviously being literal, otherwise He would tell us.
This is consistent with His personality, He never changes.

So why was God metaphoric here?
Look at Ezekiel 4:4-6.
Each day for a year.
Add them up.
Lie on his left side for 390 days for Israel (390 years)
And on his right side 40 days for Judah (40 years)
That's 430 years!!
Do you think Ezekiel lived that long?
Of course not.
Simply a logical reason as to why God had to be metaphoric.

And this is all they got in their arsenal.
Two easily explained scriptures.
But will they listen?
That's up to God.

2 major issues with your presuppositions.

1. Peter was not talking about prophesy, He was talking about the time people had waited. He made a statement of fact. 1000 years to God is as a day.

2. You assume a day in Ezek = a literal year. This is not what God said, what he said in fact it is the opposite. He was supposed to do this for a day, each day representing a year.

Ezek would not have to live 390 years. the 390 DAYS were to repre4sent years. This is the problem with looking at scripture to make your belief appear true. and not looking with an open heart and mind.

 

[Raistlin]

2 major issues with your presuppositions.

1. Peter was not talking about prophesy, He was talking about the time people had waited. He made a statement of fact. 1000 years to God is as a day.

2. You assume a day in Ezek = a literal year. This is not what God said, what he said in fact it is the opposite. He was supposed to do this for a day, each day representing a year.

Ezek would not have to live 390 years. the 390 DAYS were to repre4sent years. This is the problem with looking at scripture to make your belief appear true. and not looking with an open heart and mind.

1. Read it again. I never said Peter was talking about prophecy.
God was answering the charge against Him by the scoffers.
Maybe you were blocked to understand.

2. You are saying exactly what i was saying?!!? Except God was talking about a literal 430 years explained metaphorically because the prophecy was to those Jews who were about to be attacked.
Since the command to Ezekiel and the destruction of the second temple...430 years...430 years later the old covenant with Israel was annulled and replaced by the new covenant.

This is the problem with looking at scripture to make your belief appear true. and not looking with an open heart and mind.

Unnecessary statement.

 

[Raistlin]

To me its incredible, the efforts some people put into spreading lie's; pretending to be a christain

God's Word according to the religon of Raisin-line

You say beleive the established Prophet's, then turn around and Deny them

What about THE ESTABLISHED prophet that cried earnestly with tears; for THE PEOPLE, not himself, for 32 years (or is that metaphoric?)

And when GOD shows up; God tells him to hang on to his diaper for a minute; that satan was throwing a tantrum, and Micheal could not restrain him without the Fathers Help.

And there WAS war in Heaven for about the space of an HOUR. (or is that metaphoric too)

You should get your FACTS straight, BEFORE stating something as TRUTH.

Forever in Christ

If you noticed my angle, i was showing the two main arguments that amillennialists use to discredit the 1000 year kingdom.
Of course i wasn't going to use every example...the post would need to be huge otherwise. I just used the two main arguments they use as i stated.

Also, revelations (reign for an hour) is symbolic. There is another reason for that. But that is another debate.
And yes, the 32 years was literal.?!!?

I don't understand how you misunderstand?

 

[Raistlin]

Not really, but for the sake of argument. Let's investigate this. You are referring to the Scriptures in Revelation 20 I pressume. It says there that there are going to be those that live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. I always hoped to be one of them.

Imagine living for a thousand years. Just think of all the experience one can acquire and how many people you can help. How many miracles of Jesus you can witness. Its gonna be awesome.

But you know what would be even better. Living for one day with Christ in total understanding and freedom.
Every single day is a blessing that must be lived. And if not lived with Christ the usefullness of a thousand years is null and void.

I have a saying: And know it is not scriptural or anything. It is purely something I say.

Live every day as if you have a thousand years left. Live every second as if this day is your last.

I am glad you are Listening to God's voice. For that my friend is the most important task which we must do. Teach others how to hear the voice of God. For if they can follow God and hear His instructions our purpose would become less and less with them. For God Himself would teach them. But if they cannot hear, how will they find their way to the Kingdom of God. Being saved for some is enough sure...but if people were to understand the Kingdom again as the disciples of Jesus did, well I would say that is the third most important task. The second is of course to truly love our fellow man.

But coming back to your concept (sorry was trailing a bit there). I do believe it is important that one should know that everything will end one day. And that it is planned. However, to many people have so many ideas and even argue about it, but then they forget the five most important tasks in their church. The three I mentioned and of course going out to places and reaching people and discipling them.

When was the last time you heard of a church that went into the mall preaching Jesus. Nope. These days people sit in their churches and expect that all the sinners would come to them eventually. If someone stay away from church they don't pick up the phone and call him and go visit him and see if everything is ok. Nope. They would rather start to talk badly about him and scorn him for not coming to church regularly.

Again trailing... sorry... it is just that we are so far behind. Most people don't even know how to walk up to a person and heal him. ( I'm talking about a Christian of course). Most people sitting in the churches for 20 years don't know how to use the gifts of the Holy Spirit. They can quote to you scripture like you wouldn't believe. But it is like a history book. Not like CNN LIVE. They just know ABOUT it. Just just know God can heal because they read it in the Bible, not because they have witnessed someone get healed underneath their hands...and yet their very own Bible states...if someone is sick take them to the elders that is strong in faith, anoint them with oil and let them be healed.

I wish I could set up a poll on this site asking how people have actually experience God using either healing or prophecy or so on with them and how frequent was it within this year.

Cause think about it. If you were an unbeliever. And I told you that God was real. You would go like nope. And I would show you that God heals. And you would kinda look like one of those cartoons whose eyes pop out, but then you would be shaken in your unbelief, cause how did God heal if He doesn't exist?
Or I would give you a prophecy of certain things, identifying them in your life, but it is the first time I met you. Then you would ask how I know, I would simply say God told me. And you would go like...how can God reveal to him things I never told anybody if God doesn't exist?

Hence the reason why we need to understand the Kingdom of God...

Not that your statement isn't important. But if you hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. You could simply ask Him if whatever a person saying is true or false. And most of the time God would reveal what is needed to be said either for the completion of the argument or how to help the person onto understanding the requirements of his salvation.

For false prophets are also people, and a lot of them can be saved to, and then they might even become true prophets Not necessarily, but it might be.

Whether we live a thousand years or not is unimportant if you are not willing to die for Christ and be beheaded or worse according to Rev 20. So what is more important. Teaching a person how to have fervent faith (because they know they can rely and trust on God, because God has been with them and talking with them right throughout their lives and perhaps even their beheading or death like Stephen when he was stoned stating that he saw heaven open and seeing God). This I would consider more important.

For no one knows when the fullness of the end time is going to come. However we do know life has also got its own set of punches lined up. And if you don't have faith. Life itself can blow you down. For people are quick to cry out for a saviour if they are in trouble. But not so much if they do not know that they are in trouble. If everything feels nice and comfortable and nobody critisizes you. Everybody praise you. Yup. Then you know you are REALLY in trouble.

So whether or not people are going to live a thousand years or a day? What aid could that possibly give to people. HOW is it going to make you grow in Spirit. For instance... how is it going to help you to discern between right and wrong in your daily life? How is it going to help you to spread the gospel on a daily basis. Sure it is interesting to talk about. And people can theorise about it any many many ways. For people are quite fond of theorising I've noticed. But it still doesn't aid.

Jesus said...seek first the Kingdom of God and His Rightiousness :
Do you honestly think it would have made any difference to Paul if they told him he was going to go in chains to Rome, A chariot of Victory or getting speared and dragged through the streets...? No, Why? Cause He understood how the Kingdom of God works.

I have no idea, why I am so concerned about this when I am talking to you. Maybe I see hope. How much do you think people are REALLY willing to sacrifice for God? For if they aren't willing it won't matter whether or not it is a day or a thousand days or a million years...

Well before I start trailing again, I 'm going to greet you. I've got to see a friend of mine.

Blessings.

Hi WG,
I guess my message was lost in the post being too big.
Was just showing the reason for the two arguments amillennialists use to discredit the literal 1000 year kingdom.
How they are not using them in context regarding the reasons the statements were made.
Thanks for your reply.

 

[AnandaHya]

Hi WG, any time. hugs. May God bless you and your friend.

I'm not going to quote the wall of text lol.

I'll just answer the questions and address the Bible verses you quoted:

1. Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Which implies those that are dead...yes and those that are quickened. .


2. Lost you. If it happened in the 1st century, (being the second coming of Christ) He would live a thousand years with them. One would think that someone would have notice that Christ lives amongst us with all His people that are priests and they all live a thousand years.


3. So here is the question... what exactly did Jesus mean by that. Is there someone around here that is over 2000 years old...please I'd really like to meet you.

1. Act 10: 42 and 2 timothy refers to the final White throne Judgement in Revelation 20, has not occurred yet, it is after Satan has been bound for that 1000 year period (whether you think this is literal or metaphoric) and released again to deceive the nations and then tossed into the Fire

2. that is because I believe the 1000 year reign is in Heaven and not on Earth and begins with the First resurrection or the rapture of the Saints at the time of the defeat of the Beast and the False prophet and the binding of Satan which happened in the First century spiritually after they served their purpose of destroying Babylon the Great Harlot or temple in Jerusalem and that nation, all who did not heed Jesus warning to come out of HER or suffer the plagues and God's wrath.

3. It means they are like the angels and there are angels around us all the time but people don't have the eyes to see or the ears to hear them.

Many people claim to be prophets but they don't even SEE the world or their folly.

2 Kings 6:15-18
New King James Version (NKJV)
15 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?”
16 So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, “LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. 18 So when the Syrians came down to him, Elisha prayed to the LORD, and said, “Strike this people, I pray, with blindness.” And He struck them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.

 

[AnandaHya]

Hi WG,
I guess my message was lost in the post being too big.
Was just showing the reason for the two arguments amillennialists use to discredit the literal 1000 year kingdom.
How they are not using them in context regarding the reasons the statements were made.
Thanks for your reply.

you have a very poor understanding of the amillennialist case if those are the only reasons people believe in amillennialiam. It's hard to refute an argument you don't even fully understand.

 

[AnandaHya]

Here is the greatest scriptural argument against literal time allotments. But does it stand under scrutiny?
no its not...

this one is:
Ezekiel 4
4 “Lie also on your left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it. According to the number of the days that you lie on it, you shall bear their iniquity. 5 For I have laid on you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days; so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6 And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year.

as you stated God tells people when He is being metaphoric by using symbolic prophetic language and parables.

Revelation is a VISION, most of it is using symbols to represent things and is hidden in that language so that the outsiders and demons would not understand fully God's plans.

If Satan knew he would lose his kingdom and power by having Jesus nailed to the cross, do you think he would have manipulated people to have done it?

John 13
2 And supper being ended,[a] the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him,

18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’[c] 19 Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He. 20 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
21 When Jesus had said these things, He was troubled in spirit, and testified and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me.” 22 Then the disciples looked at one another, perplexed about whom He spoke.
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 Simon Peter therefore motioned to him to ask who it was of whom He spoke.
25 Then, leaning back[d] on Jesus’ breast, he said to Him, “Lord, who is it?”
26 Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I shall give a piece of bread when I have dipped it.” And having dipped the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” 28 But no one at the table knew for what reason He said this to him. 29 For some thought, because Judas had the money box, that Jesus had said to him, “Buy those things we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor.
30 Having received the piece of bread, he then went out immediately. And it was night.

Pray and ask God for some eye salve.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Raistlin]

you have a very poor understanding of the amillennialist case if those are the only reasons people believe in amillennialiam. It's hard to refute an argument you don't even fully understand.

I am quoting the main arguments amillennialist use against a literal 1000 year kingdom.
If you can't even see what i am saying, what hope do you have of understanding scripture?
Stop acting like zone.

 

[Raistlin]

as you stated God tells people when He is being metaphoric by using symbolic prophetic language and parables.

Revelation is a VISION, most of it is using symbols to represent things and is hidden in that language so that the outsiders and demons would not understand fully God's plans.

I wasn't quoting revelations, nor touched the subject.
You really need to concentrate.

If Satan knew he would lose his kingdom and power by having Jesus nailed to the cross, do you think he would have manipulated people to have done it?

I haven't mentioned this either.
You seem to confuse easily.

Pray and ask God for some eye salve.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Unnecessary.
Didn't you just post a post about Christians who insult others for no reason?

Matthew 7:16 > Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

 

[WeStand]

If you noticed my angle, i was showing the two main arguments that amillennialists use to discredit the 1000 year kingdom.
Of course i wasn't going to use every example...the post would need to be huge otherwise. I just used the two main arguments they use as i stated.

Also, revelations (reign for an hour) is symbolic. There is another reason for that. But that is another debate.
And yes, the 32 years was literal.?!!?

I don't understand how you misunderstand?

Sorry about that Raistlin; and Thank-You for your forgiveness, as you could have chose to be abrupt and rude like i was.

My health issues cause me to have a bad day from time to time, and yesterday was one of them.

I re-read your post and see where i jumped to an unfair accusation against you prematurly.

I do put my 2nd witness to this post as its good post indeed

I know like you do that 1000 flesh/mortal (liable to die) years, IS as One of our days to GOD.

It was when you started explaining that to GOD, it could be a billion or a trillon is where i jumped to the conclusion on you as we know that GOD could choose whatever He desires it to be after that statement is when i didn't exercise my commen-sense and finish reading your thread.

But for all intent purposes, it IS 1000 vs. 1 in The Plan of Salvation in and through Christ/Messiah, and as you pointed out, IF it is meant to be metaphoric, GOD says So, in HIS WORD.

Forever in Christ

 

[AnandaHya]

I am quoting the main arguments amillennialist use against a literal 1000 year kingdom.
If you can't even see what i am saying, what hope do you have of understanding scripture?
Stop acting like zone.

oh so not understanding you means I have no hope of understanding scripture.

would you know anyone by the screenname of Devolution by any chance?

 

[AnandaHya]

I wasn't quoting revelations, nor touched the subject.

wow you mean the whole 1000 year reign thing is not in Revelations? you didn't even touch the subject, yet it seems to be the whole basis of why you are even debating if it is taken literal or metaphoric? you are trying to debate Amillenialism but you don't even touch on the subject of revelations? wow...

You really need to concentrate.

I haven't mentioned this either.
You seem to confuse easily.

i'm not confused I just don't buy your snake oil or strawman argument. Its a lie and a false representation of the Amillenialist position but you don't seem to care to actually speaking the truth.

you didn't mention that Satan would not have cruxified Jesus if he had known God's plan and the reason Revelation is written in metaphoric language because it goes against your argument but instead of addressing it you make ad hominem attacks upon me.

Unnecessary.
Didn't you just post a post about Christians who insult others for no reason?

Matthew 7:16 > Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

people get insulted and offended by God's truth. Its a stumbling block to them. I don't insult people but often they find my words insulting because they would rather believe the lie.