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Rachel, I don't mean this sarcastically, but do you read the NT? Because keeping Sabbath is all over the NT, It shows jews and gentiles keeping sabbath together. So suddenly it's done away with? Show one verse in the Bible that Sabbath is done away with or that it was never for us. So are you saying that the Ten Commandments aren't for you, that you don't have to obey them?
Colossians 2:14-17
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Galatians 2:14-16
14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Romans 3:19-20
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 2:28-29
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 4:15
15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:9
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Don't you know that Jesus came to free us from the Law? He saved us from God's Wrath. Its not the ceremonial law that works wrath. It is the moral law that works wrath. Because it is contrary to us and our selfish nature. We can't keep Gods Law because God is Perfect and Holy and we are not. We need the Lord Jesus to Save us from Gods Law, which shows us our sin and therefore our death.
Why would you point people back to the Law? Why show them their death? Shouldn't you point people to the Saviour? Shouldn't you show them Life?
Grandpa, all I can say without getting into a super long explanation is you have totally taken these verses out of context, because the way your putting it makes other verses a liar, which cannot happen. So that means they are misunderstood. Just for your info my friend. Colossians 2:16 is talking about don't let anyone judge you because you keep these things, sabbaths, feasts, new moons etc. And the shadow of things to come is talking about Yeshua coming and proclaiming His Kingdom on earth. And Colossians 2:14 does not say that Torah was blotted out, it's talking about the Mishna and talmud that the pharisees and sadducees had placed on man, above Torah.
Galatians 2:14-16, This is correct, we cannot be justified or saved by the Torah or by works of the Torah, for we are saved and justified by the blood of Yeshua, by we still have to keep the rules of the house. Just because we are saved through Yeshua, doesn't mean we have a free ride.
Romans 3:19-20 tells us the Torah is the revealer of sin. Romans 2:28-29 no arguement. Romans 4:15 It's pretty clear, if there is no Torah, than there is no sin to repent of. This is why we have Torah.
You say Yeshua came to free us from the law, that's not true, He came to free us from it's curse, which is death to those who break it. But the law is going no where as He makes clear in Matt. 5:17-19
I always point people to our Saviour Yeshua, but we are still to obey the rules of the house. You said we can't keep the law, well either your wrong or John is wrong, because 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
So this verse says different than what you're saying.
One last thing, there are alot of verses in the NT that shows and states jews and gentiles keeping Sabbath. So you're entire arguement is contrary to what the Bible says. So I'm sorry grandpa but you are wrong in all this, because the Bible says gives a different story than you. Shalom
Galatians 2:14-16, This is correct, we cannot be justified or saved by the Torah or by works of the Torah, for we are saved and justified by the blood of Yeshua, by we still have to keep the rules of the house. Just because we are saved through Yeshua, doesn't mean we have a free ride.
Romans 3:19-20 tells us the Torah is the revealer of sin. Romans 2:28-29 no arguement. Romans 4:15 It's pretty clear, if there is no Torah, than there is no sin to repent of. This is why we have Torah.
You say Yeshua came to free us from the law, that's not true, He came to free us from it's curse, which is death to those who break it. But the law is going no where as He makes clear in Matt. 5:17-19
I always point people to our Saviour Yeshua, but we are still to obey the rules of the house. You said we can't keep the law, well either your wrong or John is wrong, because 1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
So this verse says different than what you're saying.
One last thing, there are alot of verses in the NT that shows and states jews and gentiles keeping Sabbath. So you're entire arguement is contrary to what the Bible says. So I'm sorry grandpa but you are wrong in all this, because the Bible says gives a different story than you. Shalom
P
I like these two verses because it’s at the end of the NT showing we need to keep them still.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The only commandeant that you could call into question or I could call into question with me, is “what is the Sabbath day”.
I see it as a day of rest to spend time with the lord.
As for fellowship and going to a building I am not so shore
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The only commandeant that you could call into question or I could call into question with me, is “what is the Sabbath day”.
I see it as a day of rest to spend time with the lord.
As for fellowship and going to a building I am not so shore
Galatians 5:21
and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
All the law is for our blessings.
The gentiles felt Christ, when He talked of fasting for men’s approval not being right decided not to fast, although Christ said “when you fast”.
Matthew 6:16
“When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
When Paul spoke to the Jews about gentiles joining the church and what was required he had no idea that our generation would read this as just ignore the whole thing. Nowhere will you find a place he said that.
Nowhere in the bible, Old or New Testament, is there any indication that we can make ourselves so holy that we are saved, yet all though the bible it says to obey the law. I cannot understand why people bring up saved by grace when the law is discussed. We are saved by grace, always have been. We are to obey the law all we can and given the chance for repentance in regard to that, always have been. Blood is a part of that, always has been. Christ’s blood is a fulfillment of that. I wonder what sort of reasoning makes people always bring up that we don’t obey law to be saved. Are they trying to say not to obey law? That isn’t truth. No one has ever obeyed law to be saved, neither Old or New Testament tells us to do that. Although we can not be saved by grace and be purposeful law breakers.
The law is for our blessing. Jews used to sing praises to women each Friday based on Proverbs 32. Gentiles didn’t. I found that Jews put up a mezuzah, a box on the doorpost saying to love the one true God, gentiles never did. Each one of the rituals gives a blessing in a happier marriage, a happier and more moral life, or some blessing. There are lots of gentiles who talk against the law, but nowhere in scripture does it do that. Paul pointed ways to wholeheartedly worship our Triune God without doing some of the rituals, but nowhere does scripture tell us not to do them.
and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
All the law is for our blessings.
The gentiles felt Christ, when He talked of fasting for men’s approval not being right decided not to fast, although Christ said “when you fast”.
Matthew 6:16
“When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
When Paul spoke to the Jews about gentiles joining the church and what was required he had no idea that our generation would read this as just ignore the whole thing. Nowhere will you find a place he said that.
Nowhere in the bible, Old or New Testament, is there any indication that we can make ourselves so holy that we are saved, yet all though the bible it says to obey the law. I cannot understand why people bring up saved by grace when the law is discussed. We are saved by grace, always have been. We are to obey the law all we can and given the chance for repentance in regard to that, always have been. Blood is a part of that, always has been. Christ’s blood is a fulfillment of that. I wonder what sort of reasoning makes people always bring up that we don’t obey law to be saved. Are they trying to say not to obey law? That isn’t truth. No one has ever obeyed law to be saved, neither Old or New Testament tells us to do that. Although we can not be saved by grace and be purposeful law breakers.
The law is for our blessing. Jews used to sing praises to women each Friday based on Proverbs 32. Gentiles didn’t. I found that Jews put up a mezuzah, a box on the doorpost saying to love the one true God, gentiles never did. Each one of the rituals gives a blessing in a happier marriage, a happier and more moral life, or some blessing. There are lots of gentiles who talk against the law, but nowhere in scripture does it do that. Paul pointed ways to wholeheartedly worship our Triune God without doing some of the rituals, but nowhere does scripture tell us not to do them.
I don't think these verses were taken out of context. I think this is what these verses are trying to tell us. It is sort of a paraphrase...
I don't see the significance in differentiating between the Lord Jesus saving us from the Law or saving us from its Curse. And this is why. The Law is what shows you your sin. It is like a mirror. It is perfect and amazing at its task. No man can say they are sinless (and therefore are following the Law) while they are looking in this mirror. The only way to follow the Law is to turn away from this mirror and look to the Saviour Jesus Christ.
When I say we can't keep the Law, I mean we can't keep the Law by trying under our own power to keep the Law. By turning our back to the Law and following the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit we inadvertantly keep the Law too. Because against Love there is no Law. The Law doesn't show us how to Love. Only the Lord can show us how to Love. The Lord defines for us what Love is.
And this is kind of my whole argument against "keeping" the literal Sabbath. We don't keep the Sabbath by trying to keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath is given to us and that is how we keep it. The Lord Jesus is our Sabbath, our rest from works. Our rest from performing the Law.
I don't see the significance in differentiating between the Lord Jesus saving us from the Law or saving us from its Curse. And this is why. The Law is what shows you your sin. It is like a mirror. It is perfect and amazing at its task. No man can say they are sinless (and therefore are following the Law) while they are looking in this mirror. The only way to follow the Law is to turn away from this mirror and look to the Saviour Jesus Christ.
When I say we can't keep the Law, I mean we can't keep the Law by trying under our own power to keep the Law. By turning our back to the Law and following the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit we inadvertantly keep the Law too. Because against Love there is no Law. The Law doesn't show us how to Love. Only the Lord can show us how to Love. The Lord defines for us what Love is.
And this is kind of my whole argument against "keeping" the literal Sabbath. We don't keep the Sabbath by trying to keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath is given to us and that is how we keep it. The Lord Jesus is our Sabbath, our rest from works. Our rest from performing the Law.
Do you Know what Judaizers were/are? They are people who mix the Law with Grace. They say by Grace you are saved but now you must perform these Laws. I contend (and the bible does too) that you are saved by Grace and you keep being saved by Grace and not your own performance of Law.
Once again, when you try to perform the Law perfectly, to be pleasing to the Lord, you will eventually fall short. There was one perfect person who was able to perform the Law perfectly and He is our Saviour. The way we are able to perform any Law is to follow what the Lord Jesus taught us. Love. Love our neighbor. Love our God.
Once again, when you try to perform the Law perfectly, to be pleasing to the Lord, you will eventually fall short. There was one perfect person who was able to perform the Law perfectly and He is our Saviour. The way we are able to perform any Law is to follow what the Lord Jesus taught us. Love. Love our neighbor. Love our God.
This is the way people trick themselves into thinking that they keep the Law, under their own power. They water it down until it is something that they interpret for their own self so they have the appearance of keeping the Law. While in their hearts they are wicked and un-righteous.
The Lord Jesus forgives us of our sins. The sins which are shown to us by the Law. That is what the Law was/is designed to do.
P
There is only one problem with that statement.
Matt5:. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
Also Jesus gave a new commandment another law.
John13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
You are not saved by the law, but it pleases god if you keep the commandments, thus the rewards are greater compered if you don’t. Matt5:. 19
John14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments
Matt5:. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
Also Jesus gave a new commandment another law.
John13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
You are not saved by the law, but it pleases god if you keep the commandments, thus the rewards are greater compered if you don’t. Matt5:. 19
John14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments
This is what you were accidently doing. You were calling into question a commandment of God. And then you said "what is the sabbath day"? And you gave your definition of what you think the sabbath day is. You accidently "watered down" God's law to give yourself the appearance of keeping it.
God's Law is perfect. And if you are going to follow it, then follow it perfectly. Don't pretend to follow a watered down version. Do you see why it must be this way?
God's Law is perfect. And if you are going to follow it, then follow it perfectly. Don't pretend to follow a watered down version. Do you see why it must be this way?
Grandpa, so what do you think YHVH would like more, for us to try and keep His Commandments, i.e. Sabbath, and do the best we can. Or take the attitude of "I can't do it right all the time" and just not even try?
If you have kids, would you rather they try to please you by keeping your rules, or just tell you " I mess up so I'm not going to try at all"
Since we are saved by grace and not of ourselves, then I would think that we would want to bend over backwards to please YHVH by trying our best to honor all His Word. And stop using Yeshua as an excuse to throw it all out the door. Yeshua didn't die on the cross to give us a free ride, He came to save us from certain death, spiritual seperation from YHVH. Shalom
If you have kids, would you rather they try to please you by keeping your rules, or just tell you " I mess up so I'm not going to try at all"
Since we are saved by grace and not of ourselves, then I would think that we would want to bend over backwards to please YHVH by trying our best to honor all His Word. And stop using Yeshua as an excuse to throw it all out the door. Yeshua didn't die on the cross to give us a free ride, He came to save us from certain death, spiritual seperation from YHVH. Shalom
P
Me, I haven’t got the faith to teach men to break one of the least commandments.
I don’t want to be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.
But I want to be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I don’t want to be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.
But I want to be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
That is not at all what I was trying to say. I was speaking as if to Saved Christians. I was not speaking to unsaved people.
There is a way to keep the Law. It is through the Lord Jesus Christ. It is His name that must be Glorified. It is His teaching that must be followed.
It is not through the Jewish way of pretending to keep a watered down version of the Law through their own strength and will.
Don't you see that this was what The Lord Jesus was saying?
Matthew 5:20-22
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Really all of Matthew 5 but did not want to post the whole thing.
The Law is our taskmaster. It serves a specific purpose. The Lord Jesus fulfills the Law and teaches us how to live and be blessed, and be saved.
There is a way to keep the Law. It is through the Lord Jesus Christ. It is His name that must be Glorified. It is His teaching that must be followed.
It is not through the Jewish way of pretending to keep a watered down version of the Law through their own strength and will.
Don't you see that this was what The Lord Jesus was saying?
Matthew 5:20-22
20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Really all of Matthew 5 but did not want to post the whole thing.
The Law is our taskmaster. It serves a specific purpose. The Lord Jesus fulfills the Law and teaches us how to live and be blessed, and be saved.