Babies born sinful?

[Eecletra]

Hi,
I'll make this short and sharp
I don't know the Bible back to front as I have come to the good Lord recently, and a friend of mine told me (she had been Christian but converted to Buddhism) that "The Bible quotes that babies are born sinful. I didnt think that was right and I turned away from Christianity."
Can someone tell me where it says that in the Bible?
Also, if it is in there, why are babies born sinful?

Many thanks

 

[wwjd_kilden]

The trail of thoughts behind that is the concept of inherited sin:

When Adam and Eve sinned, they separated mankind form God. So some say this means babies are born sinful.

Your sin is your sin, so a bible may not be a sinner as such, but:
the bible talks of curses AND blessings for generations: So if you sin, your children might be punished, and if you follow the lord, they might be blessed, as a result of how you live your life.

For my own interpretation:
I think Gods word is embedded in all of us from birth, so that, if a child is too young to consciously know about Jesus and confess their faith, I believe they are still saved, by grace, by the faith of their parents, by the fact that they simply KNOW God is their true father

 

[tribesman]

Hi,
I'll make this short and sharp
I don't know the Bible back to front as I have come to the good Lord recently, and a friend of mine told me (she had been Christian but converted to Buddhism) that "The Bible quotes that babies are born sinful. I didnt think that was right and I turned away from Christianity."
Can someone tell me where it says that in the Bible?
Also, if it is in there, why are babies born sinful?

Many thanks

Your friend was right, too bad she got into buddhism. But what she said was correct. Only ignorant souls will deny that fact, beware of such. The Bible teaches that all men, including babies, have original sin and personal sin.

Here are some scriptures that shows this:

Gen.8

[20] And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
[21] And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Job.15

[14] What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Qoh.9

[3] This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Ps.14

[1] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
[2] The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
[3] They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Pss.51

[2] Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
[3] For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
[4] Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
[5] Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Prov.22

[15] Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Jer.17


[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
[10] I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Rom.3

[23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom.5

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom.6

[23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eph.2

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

1John.1

[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[mori]

I don't know the Bible back to front as I have come to the good Lord recently, and a friend of mine told me (she had been Christian but converted to Buddhism) that "The Bible quotes that babies are born sinful. I didnt think that was right and I turned away from Christianity."

I think it would be a mistake to take this at face value. Rarely does a person convert from one faith to another because of a single doctrine. To convert to Buddhism, for example, requires a nearly complete overhaul in how one sees the universe. The state of babies is one of the least important differences, as all Buddhists will agree that everyone comes into the world with at least some measure of negative karma, or they'd already be enlightened and wouldn't have taken an uncontrolled rebirth.

Also, if it is in there, why are babies born sinful?

Every religion has to answer a similar question, even if it's phrased differently. Why do the innocent suffer? St. Anselm wrote that original sin was the "privation of the righteousness which every man ought to possess." We can imagine perfection, but this is not it.

The Christian teaching of original sin is not adding something to children, but explaining something which anyone can already observe in children. Babies are born with "original sin," which does not mean they have committed personal sin, but are imperfect even from the very beginning. Some children, for example, are given a genetic destiny at conception that will end their lives before they've had a chance to form a thought. This needs to be explained, unless we conclude that the universe is capricious - Christians and Buddhists agree that it is not.

To your Buddhist friend, you may want to explain it this way. Why do even infants suffer, before they've had a chance to incur negative karma in this lifetime? In her tradition, it is because of the twelve links of dependent origination, etc. These answers have exactly the same function in Buddhism as original sin does in Christianity.

In neither tradition is the explanation a personal accusation.

 

[jb]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that a baby is born in sin!

The piece of Scripture that (so called) theologians like to use to support their erroneous born in (and original) sin theories is found in Psalm 51v5 which states:

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Were it not for doctrinal bias we should understand from this verse that it was his mother who was in sin at his conception, not David. Suppose the verse read "in bitterness, or in joy, did my mother conceive me!" we should unhesitatingly refer the bitterness or joy to his mother not to David, as is grammatically correct: "in sin" is an adverbial phrase qualifying the verb, not the object.

The Lord Jesus said in Matt 19v14:

"Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

From this verse we understand that if a child dies it retains it's soul and spirit and ascends into the Presence of God in Heaven, it's body going into the grave. It does NOT go into Hades or Hell like the heretic Augustine taught!

Isaiah 53v6 states:

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

Every individual sins because he/she wants to as an act of their own free will, ie. man goes astray (of his own free will), he is NOT born astray! This is excatly what Ezek 18v4,20 states, a person dies for their OWN sin, NOT that of their father's!

 

[mori]

Were it not for doctrinal bias we should understand from this verse that it was his mother who was in sin at his conception, not David.

And, even if we were to assume that David meant that he himself was born in sin, why would it necessarily lead to doctrine? David laments that God is far away or might tarry in help - is he necessarily correct? Personal feelings are expressed in the Psalms that are not the basis for doctrine, but insight into the struggles of a man of God.

 

[tribesman]

Every individual sins because he/she wants to as an act of their own free will, ie. man goes astray (of his own free will), he is NOT born astray! This is excatly what Ezek 18v4,20 states, a person dies for their OWN sin, NOT that of their father's!

The opposite side of the follies you promote is that if man has the ability to sin or not to sin by his "free will", he must also have the ability to come to God by and on his own - without Christ.

These NT scriptures exposes your vain imaginations:

Rom.5

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Eph.2

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

1John.1

[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Tim.2

[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[jb]

The opposite side of the follies you promote is that if man has the ability to sin or not to sin by his "free will", he must also have the ability to come to God by and on his own - without Christ.

These NT scriptures exposes your vain imaginations:

No they don't...By using them you simply show forth your inability to interpret Scripture properly!

Man sins because he wants to and NOT because he has to...as Isaiah 53v6 clearly shows.

Romans 5v12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Death passed upon all men (and woman) simply because ALL have chosen willfully to sin, ie Isaiah 53v6 in action...

The RSV brings out the correct force of the Greek preposition in Eph 2v1-3 (esp. v1)

And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Eph 2v1 teaches that a person dies spiritually when they trespass and sin willfully, ie. Isiah 53v6...

As regards 1John 1v8, it is referring to an act of sin and not a life of sin and does not in anyway whatsoever support your false theories of original sin (and born in) sin theories...

1Tim 2v5 simply states that we have one Mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who also was a man with the same kind of sinful flesh that all other humans have. Rom 8v3, Heb 2v14-18...

Original sin (and born in sin) theories simply impute to God injustice and folly: injustice, because they attribute to Him wrath against man, either for what they have not themselves done or for what by their nature they are bound to do: folly, because it is stupid to make something which is only capable of a certain course of conduct, and then blame it for pursuing that course! If men by their nature are obliged to sin then God is wicked so to create them, foolish to be angry when they do sin, and unjust to blame them for so doing. Further, repentance is impossible for those born in sin, for if any man really is incapable of avoiding sin, it is impossible for him to repent of it when he has committed it. He cannot possibly be ashamed of doing what he is forced by his nature to do. He might regret that he had been given so bad a nature; but for this he would of course blame the One who had made him so inefficiently.

God, Who is Love and all wise certainly did not create humans in the way you state...

mori

And, even if we were to assume that David meant that he himself was born in sin, why would it necessarily lead to doctrine? David laments that God is far away or might tarry in help - is he necessarily correct? Personal feelings are expressed in the Psalms that are not the basis for doctrine, but insight into the struggles of a man of God.

Psalm 51v5 is often quoted in an attempt to support the false doctrine of Original Sin (and born in sin theories), which I have shown is not the case, so those who try and twist this Scripture are simply deluding themselves...

So in recapping, man sins because he wants to (by an act of free will) and NOT because he has to...Isaiah 53v6...

 

[tribesman]

No they don't...By using them you simply show forth your inability to interpret Scripture properly!

Man sins because he wants to and NOT because he has to...as Isaiah 53v6 clearly shows.

Romans 5v12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Death passed upon all men (and woman) simply because ALL have chosen willfully to sin, ie Isaiah 53v6 in action...

You are talking about "interpreting scripture", and yet you don't even go by scripture! Nowhere does it say in scripture that man sins because of choice alone. Natural man is not forced to sin, he do so because that is his nature. He do not measure up to the righteousness of God and is therefore judged to be a transgressor, a sinner.

The RSV brings out the correct force of the Greek preposition in Eph 2v1-3 (esp. v1)

And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Eph 2v1 teaches that a person dies spiritually when they trespass and sin willfully, ie. Isiah 53v6...

No, it doesn't. The context makes it clear that sin comes out of the very nature that is man.

As regards 1John 1v8, it is referring to an act of sin and not a life of sin and does not in anyway whatsoever support your false theories of original sin (and born in) sin theories...

1Tim 2v5 simply states that we have one Mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who also was a man with the same kind of sinful flesh that all other humans have. Rom 8v3, Heb 2v14-18...

Christ did come in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh. Scripture doesn't explicitly say that Jesus had a sinful nature. Even if He did become like us in many ways .

Original sin (and born in sin) theories simply impute to God injustice and folly: injustice, because they attribute to Him wrath against man, either for what they have not themselves done or for what by their nature they are bound to do: folly, because it is stupid to make something which is only capable of a certain course of conduct, and then blame it for pursuing that course! If men by their nature are obliged to sin then God is wicked so to create them, foolish to be angry when they do sin, and unjust to blame them for so doing. Further, repentance is impossible for those born in sin, for if any man really is incapable of avoiding sin, it is impossible for him to repent of it when he has committed it. He cannot possibly be ashamed of doing what he is forced by his nature to do. He might regret that he had been given so bad a nature; but for this he would of course blame the One who had made him so inefficiently.

You are right in that it is impossible for sinners to repent, it is a gift that God bestows upon them (Acts 5:31). The rest you talk about here is some kind of humanistic sophistry. I wonder what is your religion.

God, Who is Love and all wise certainly did not create humans in the way you state...

You assume things out of the blue it seems. I have never stated that He created humans the way they are. Sin is not a created thing.

Psalm 51v5 is often quoted in an attempt to support the false doctrine of Original Sin (and born in sin theories), which I have shown is not the case, so those who try and twist this Scripture are simply deluding themselves...

So in recapping, man sins because he wants to (by an act of free will) and NOT because he has to...Isaiah 53v6...

You have not shown anything else than that you do deny clear scriptures about the nature of fallen man. Talking about deluding you are obviously oblivious to what your theories leads to on the positive side. It wil ultimately lead to self righteousness and salvation conditioned on the work of the sinner, or any other condition in him. Just like heretics such as Pelagius, Erasmus and Arminius etc believed. Sorry, but I cannot gratulate you to this.

 

[jb]

You have not shown anything else than that you do deny clear scriptures about the nature of fallen man.

Maybe you should read again what I have written...your line of arguement is that man sins because he has to, because he was created with a fallen nature (ie born in sin), however, I am saying that a man is not born with a fallen nature and sins because he wants to and not because he has to...

A baby is not born in sin or in the condition which is referred to as "Original Sin" ie. a person is not born astray but goes astray of his own free will, as Isaiah 53v6 clearly states.

If you read Ezek chapter 18 you will find that God clearly refutes the doctrine of Original Sin and born in sin theories.

Humans are free will beings and it seems clear that you do not understand how this corresponds in our interaction and relationship with God, I suggest you go and seek God and mediate upon the Scriptures for light upon this!

Yahweh Shalom...

 

[Catlynn]

I don't have to say anything...because jb already said everything that I believe.

 

[Kyouken]

We're all born alive to sin because of what Adam and Eve did. Thus we have a sinful nature; that doesn't mean we don't have the choice to not sin, though.

Once we're born again, we become dead to sin, and alive to God. Our sin nature is demolished when we are born of God.

That's what I've come to believe, however I need to do more research.

 

[Crossfire]

Your friend was right, too bad she got into buddhism. But what she said was correct. Only ignorant souls will deny that fact, beware of such. The Bible teaches that all men, including babies, have original sin and personal sin.

Do you believe that a baby that was aborted while in the mother's womb goes to hell despite the fact that the child never had a chance to sin much less repent?

While I do believe in physical depravity, the Calvinistic concept of total depravity, even after salvation, is way off.

 

[Joshua175]

Matthew 11:25 "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes"

I don't think anyone needs to worry about babies going to hell. God is not that way. He knows our hearts and searches our hearts. God is not unjust. If Jesus Christ would have mercy upon murderers and thieves then how much easier would it be for him to have mercy on a baby who doesn't even know about good and evil yet? But God reveals his love and mercy to babes and such is the kingdom of God.

 

[tribesman]

...I am saying that a man is not born with a fallen nature and sins because he wants to and not because he has to...

A baby is not born in sin or in the condition which is referred to as "Original Sin" ie. a person is not born astray but goes astray of his own free will, as Isaiah 53v6 clearly states.

If you read Ezek chapter 18 you will find that God clearly refutes the doctrine of Original Sin and born in sin theories.

Humans are free will beings...

You have absolutely no scriptural foundation whatsoever for your idea that "humans are free will beings". This does not bother you?

In post#3 of this thread I cited many scriptures from both OT and NT that speaks about the nature of man. See above or this link:

http://christianchat.com/609433-post3.html <-link

One may also notice that in every case in scripture when God asks someone to positively and willingly obey Him, it is always implied that the addressed are already in covenant with Him.

Indeed, in the negative however, even natural man has much "freedom" to sin, rebel and displease God. But he has no "freedom" to do the very opposite, until God has quickened him from his dead state, wherein he was dead in trespasses and sins. Dead - not only sick - dead, meaning lacking any sort of ability to in any wise contribute to any way of pleasing God, or even to prepare for such.

Hence Paul said:

Eph.2

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Phil.2

[12] Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
[14] Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
[15] That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

 

[tribesman]

Do you believe that a baby that was aborted while in the mother's womb goes to hell despite the fact that the child never had a chance to sin much less repent?

While I do believe in physical depravity, the Calvinistic concept of total depravity, even after salvation, is way off.

Your statement about the reformed view of depravity after regeneration is off-topic. So is also actually your question about how infants are saved. Here we are discussing if babies are born sinful or not, which is related to the question of original sin.

I can only say that neither sin nor repentance is anything about "chance". The former is something that is done out of nature of natural man (Eph.2:1-3), the latter is a gift from God to the regenerate (Acts 5:31). No one needs to prove to God how sinful they are and no one can produce any unto God acceptable repentance in that state, in which they are not innocent. There's but one way of salvation. This applies to infants as well, who are saved through the same principles as persons of any age.

Sound reformed teaching will have it that while having put on the new nature of Christ means a change of the entire person, they will not deny that the old man and the flesh is still present with him and that there's a constant struggle between them two (Gal.5:16-17). They reject and detest shallow sin concepts such as the wesleyan ideas of perfectionism and of not calling the sinful inclinations of the heart sin.

 

[loveme1]

Trust in the Lord he know's everything. He judges everyone accordingly, one size does not fit all, and babies are born into this world as sinners, It all goes back to Adam and Eve, from that moment we all are born sinners. The Lord sent Jesus to pay the price for our sin. Jesus sacrificed himself and saved us.

You can not eat a piece of bread, if you don't believe it is there, so you certainly won't see it.
Believing is seeing.

Jesus paid the price for our sin, but if you do not believe in him then you do not accept his sacrifice, you do not accept you are sinning, and you do not repent.
If you think you are a good person, and do not sin, then you do not have the understanding of your life.
You live it for you and do not seek God.

So if that is your belief ,then why do you need the sacrifice that Jesus made?

Our Lord want's us to see, that he is God and we need him for everything, we do nothing without him. Turning away from Christianity because babies are born sinners,
maybe you were not a christian to start with, other wise you would of understood this.

 

[gardenbunny]

I was always taught that babies are the most pure and precious of human beings. It isn't until they are a little older when they can make choices that they are held accountable for their choices.
When I see a new born baby I think "they just came from Jesus and the angels, I wonder if you could see into their brains what heaven is like."
And when a newborn baby dies within a year of their birth or are stillborn or miscarried they are just angels that the Lord needed more than the earth did.

 

[resurrection33]

Hi,
I'll make this short and sharp
I don't know the Bible back to front as I have come to the good Lord recently, and a friend of mine told me (she had been Christian but converted to Buddhism) that "The Bible quotes that babies are born sinful. I didnt think that was right and I turned away from Christianity."
Can someone tell me where it says that in the Bible?
Also, if it is in there, why are babies born sinful?

Many thanks

I don’t think babies are born sinful. Of course, we all have sinned, but I think that was by choice.

 

[olderisgood62]

We are born sinners. We have our sin nature from day one. Even in that
uninformed, innocent ignorance of sin. Not knowing anything of substance.
Our sin nature exists. Though it is not fully established, it is dormant
just waiting to make it's presence felt.
In our innocent beginnings we are unaware of it. Incapable of understanding
it or controling it. Limited in our capability to learn, we cannot be taught
yet to understand the grasp this nature has upon us.
Our first concept of sin is when we understand the word NO. It is the first
sign we learn that let's us know we did something wrong. Doing something
wrong is sin. And here we go down the road of choice.