Worshipping the Bible is Idolatry!

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

You say that the Bible is the "only source of infallible doctrine", but how are you going to understand what the Bible says, "unless someone guides me (you)?” (Acts 8:31). By saying that man's interpretation is wrong you are condemning yourself because you too are a man, and you are certainly not an ordained teacher or an interpreter who has been chosen by Christ and the Church.

If you had more ambition, power and money, you would likely end up creating your own church, because you don't believe in the One Church. This is the problem with Protestants approach to Holy Scriptures, they believe that you they can appoint themselves as infallible teachers. And this is why there are 25,000 different divisions in the Christian Church and no "Unity of the Faith" (Eph 4).






You are again making a big mistake here because of advance of Christian Relativism and Heresy. You see, in 325 AD, the Nicene Creed was written. This Creed was created in order to lay down the basics of Christianity. The Nicene Creed was created so that nobody (including heretical bishops) could misinterpret the Scriptures and cause Heresy in the Church. When the Protestants reject the Nicene Creed and the Church, they set themselves up to be, "Tossed as by waves, and being carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in regard to deceitful scheming," (Ephesians 4:14)

Dear Friend of St. Michael our protector:
You and I both agree with your true words. You just say things sharper than I say them. I am new to Orthodoxy, and haven't been received into the Church yet. Please pray for me. Pray Fr. Simon will send someone to drive me to church. I am waiting on him to call or write me and arrange a ride.
God bless us. In Erie Scott R. Harrington

 

[shroom2]

Completely false. Mary was the first soul to be saved by her Son, Jesus Christ,

The twelve apostles were the first to receive the new birth as recorded in Acts 2

she is blessed among women, and, next to Jesus Christ Himself, she is the greatest human being who ever lived.

What is your basis for that statement?

She believed her Son, and was made to understand His mission, not misunderstand.

How was she "made to understand"?

You commit the mind reading fallacy, and pretend to know things that cannot be known. None of us were there, so we must rely on valid tradition and valid testimony from the valid (true) Church of God.

You are claiming things the bible does not say.

Outside of the Church traditions is only the false tradition of men.

Traditions are traditions. They may be right and they may be wrong. Simply because something is a tradition in the EOC does not make it truth.

What Scripture says Mary was a sinner?

Rom 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

She was saved. Not sinful in any major way. Anyway, it's wrong to try to judge her. Because Scripture commands us to judge not, lest we be judged. It's wrong to disrespect the Mother of God the Son.
Mary is the chief disciple of Christ, because this is what she said of Christ:
Whatever He tells you to do, do it.
Not the words of a "sinner" in any way whatsoever!
All generations shall call Mary blessed. Any generation that does not bless her is lost in its own mind and not blessed by God.

Mary is blessed because she was meek and humble, and believed God. She will participate in the resurrection of the just. Until that happens, she is dead, as are all who have died (except Christ). She is not to be prayed to. No dead person is to be prayed to.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Completely false. Mary was the first soul to be saved by her Son,

Completely false. If Anything, Adam and Eve were the first souls to be saved by Jesus, for they were the first to believe God when he said he would take care of their sin through a future sacrifice.

either way when Jesus said, "it was finished. Every OT person who received Gods salvation were instantaneously saved at that point, (this would include mary by the way, since she was before his death)

Jesus Christ, she is blessed among women, and, next to Jesus Christ Himself, she is the greatest human being who ever lived. She believed her Son,

Wow, now I have heard anything. She was greater than the OT prophets? says who??

and was made to understand His mission, not misunderstand.

Yep she understood it so much, she was not scared at all of human authority, and did not go with her children and try to get Jesus away from them. She would not have been angry with him when he did not follow her. but was in the place God wanted him to be to learn what he needed to know. Seems she was not perfect after all. nor did she completely understand his mission. or she would not have done these things.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

The twelve apostles were the first to receive the new birth as recorded in Acts 2


What is your basis for that statement?


How was she "made to understand"?


You are claiming things the bible does not say.


Traditions are traditions. They may be right and they may be wrong. Simply because something is a tradition in the EOC does not make it truth.


[/size]Rom 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Mary is blessed because she was meek and humble, and believed God. She will participate in the resurrection of the just. Until that happens, she is dead, as are all who have died (except Christ). She is not to be prayed to. No dead person is to be prayed to.

We pray TO God alone THROUGH the saints, not to them.
They are alive, not dead.
Elijah and Enoch are alive. In heaven. They have to come back to earth, so they can die in the Great Tribulation.
Simply because something in the EOC DODES make it the truth (according to 1 Tim. 3:15). The Church, not the Bible "alone", is the pillar and ground of the Truth. It's the Church (cf. Acts 8:30-31) that tells us what the Bible means. Protestants MAKE THEMSELVES THE Church and worship their own egos (their own selves).
Jesus hasn't sinned, so it isn't literally true that all have sinned. Scripture doesn't tell us what Mary's sin is, so we shouldn't automatically assume that she had sins. All we know is God is her Savior, and she rejoiced in God her Savior. Because she is mortal, like all others, she has the ancestral sin of the knowledge of good and evil, so she had to be saved from that sin. Not from any actual sins, the Scripture is silent on that, so we must be silent, too.
Simple truth.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Completely false. If Anything, Adam and Eve were the first souls to be saved by Jesus, for they were the first to believe God when he said he would take care of their sin through a future sacrifice.

either way when Jesus said, "it was finished. Every OT person who received Gods salvation were instantaneously saved at that point, (this would include mary by the way, since she was before his death)

[/size]

Wow, now I have heard anything. She was greater than the OT prophets? says who??


Yep she understood it so much, she was not scared at all of human authority, and did not go with her children and try to get Jesus away from them. She would not have been angry with him when he did not follow her. but was in the place God wanted him to be to learn what he needed to know. Seems she was not perfect after all. nor did she completely understand his mission. or she would not have done these things.

The Bible doesn't teach instant (instantaneous) salvation. It teaches, instead, that those who "endure to the end" will (finally) be saved.

 

[shroom2]

We pray TO God alone THROUGH the saints, not to them.
They are alive, not dead.
Elijah and Enoch are alive. In heaven. They have to come back to earth, so they can die in the Great Tribulation.
Simply because something in the EOC DODES make it the truth (according to 1 Tim. 3:15). The Church, not the Bible "alone", is the pillar and ground of the Truth. It's the Church (cf. Acts 8:30-31) that tells us what the Bible means. Protestants MAKE THEMSELVES THE Church and worship their own egos (their own selves).
Jesus hasn't sinned, so it isn't literally true that all have sinned. Scripture doesn't tell us what Mary's sin is, so we shouldn't automatically assume that she had sins. All we know is God is her Savior, and she rejoiced in God her Savior. Because she is mortal, like all others, she has the ancestral sin of the knowledge of good and evil, so she had to be saved from that sin. Not from any actual sins, the Scripture is silent on that, so we must be silent, too.
Simple truth.

Your doctrine is something else, Scott.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Your doctrine is something else, Scott.

Is or is not Scripture silent regarding what Mary's sin or sins were?
Why say something Scripture does not say? I thought you go "by Scripture alone". Do you really go by Scripture alone?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is or is not Scripture silent regarding what Mary's sin or sins were?
Why say something Scripture does not say? I thought you go "by Scripture alone". Do you really go by Scripture alone?

No it is not. It shows mary sinning because of her lack in faith in God and having to go rescue Jesus twice. One because he did not follow her. and one because he was mocking the religious authority of the day, and she feared for his life. Lack of faith in God is sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Bible doesn't teach instant (instantaneous) salvation. It teaches, instead, that those who "endure to the end" will (finally) be saved.

no the bible does not teach that. The bible teaches we can now right now we have eternal life. if we can not know until we die. then the bible lied.

why would you want to believe in a bible that lies?

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

no the bible does not teach that. The bible teaches we can now right now we have eternal life. if we can not know until we die. then the bible lied.

why would you want to believe in a bible that lies?

The Bible says in first John we can know IF we keep His commandments. Some people keep His commandments. Some people do not keep His commandments. ALL people sin. So all people at one time or another did not keep all His commandments. So, because of sin, there is uncertainty. The Bible says God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. It doesn't say any one of us says we are saved. Only God will say who is finally saved.
To despair of salvation is sin (heresy).
To presume one is saved, but live in sin, is sin (heresy).
No one is without sin, so no one can presume without God's say so that they are saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Bible says in first John we can know IF we keep His commandments. Some people keep His commandments. Some people do not keep His commandments. ALL people sin. So all people at one time or another did not keep all His commandments. So, because of sin, there is uncertainty. The Bible says God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. It doesn't say any one of us says we are saved. Only God will say who is finally saved.
To despair of salvation is sin (heresy).
To presume one is saved, but live in sin, is sin (heresy).
No one is without sin, so no one can presume without God's say so that they are saved.

The we can't possibly "know" because we will never be sinless. Thus like I said, The bible lied.

Not to mention. if keeping Gods commands was a requirement. no one would ever make it unless they became sinless. The penalty of sin is death, Either Christ paid the price for them ALL, or we are doomed.

 

[midwestbob]

if keeping Gods commands was a requirement. no one would ever make it unless they became sinless. The penalty of sin is death, Either Christ paid the price for them ALL, or we are doomed.

Excellent point!

 

[shroom2]

Is or is not Scripture silent regarding what Mary's sin or sins were?
Why say something Scripture does not say? I thought you go "by Scripture alone". Do you really go by Scripture alone?

You are all over the place regarding what you believe. Scripture does not say Mary was "ever-virgin", but you insist she was. Scripture does say all have sinned, but you insist Mary's sins must have been small. Scripture does not say Mary is second only to Christ, but you insist she is. Scripture does not say Mary was the first one saved, you insist she was. Scripture says men ARE SAVED when they act on Romans 10:9, you insist they aren't.

Your church's tradition contradicts scripture in many areas.

Yes, I do go by scripture alone.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Mary was the first soul to be saved by her Son, Jesus Christ, she is blessed among women, and, next to Jesus Christ Himself, she is the greatest human being who ever lived.

matthew 11:11..."I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

 

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

matthew 11:11..."I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

You're misinterpreting that text BIG TIME. That text was talking about Christians being greater in the Kingdom of Heaven than John the Baptist, who is the Greatest Old Testament Prophet because he proclaimed Jesus, but he was no Christian and so that is why it was said, "yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Jesus Christ opened the gates of Heaven to us, in the Old Testament it was not opened to us.

Do you get it now? The text makes no sense if you do not interpret it this way.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

You're misinterpreting that text BIG TIME. That text was talking about Christians being greater in the Kingdom of Heaven than John the Baptist, who is the Greatest Old Testament Prophet because he proclaimed Jesus, but he was no Christian and so that is why it was said, "yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Jesus Christ opened the gates of Heaven to us, in the Old Testament it was not opened to us.

Do you get it now? The text makes no sense if you do not interpret it this way.

mary was born before john the baptist was...and jesus was certainly aware of that when he made this statement...so evidently john the baptist was greater than mary...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're misinterpreting that text BIG TIME. That text was talking about Christians being greater in the Kingdom of Heaven than John the Baptist, who is the Greatest Old Testament Prophet because he proclaimed Jesus, but he was no Christian and so that is why it was said, "yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Jesus Christ opened the gates of Heaven to us, in the Old Testament it was not opened to us.

Do you get it now? The text makes no sense if you do not interpret it this way.

why do people always take passages which prove them wrong and twist it?

Yes, that is what the message was. But what Did Jesus say?

Among those born of women (which would include mary, who was born of a woman) there is non greater than John the Baptist.

Thus john the baptist was greater than Mary. This is what Jesus thought. and to deny this is to call Jesus a liar.

of course we are all sinners. Thus we are all guilty. Without Christ. there is no greatness. We are dead to him.

we are either in Christ, or not in Christ. there is no inbetween

 

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

why do people always take passages which prove them wrong and twist it?

Yes, that is what the message was. But what Did Jesus say?

Among those born of women (which would include mary, who was born of a woman) there is non greater than John the Baptist.

Thus john the baptist was greater than Mary. This is what Jesus thought. and to deny this is to call Jesus a liar.

of course we are all sinners. Thus we are all guilty. Without Christ. there is no greatness. We are dead to him.

we are either in Christ, or not in Christ. there is no inbetween

You obviously did not understand what the meaning of the text was. It was Jesus saying to us that the New Testament is much better than the Old and that the Christians who are "least in the Kingdom of God" are even greater than the greatest Old Testament Prophets (John the Baptist)... Is that so hard to get through your head?

The meaning of Jesus' words was not to exalt John the Baptist's birth but to state that the Old Testament believers are not nearly as great as the New Testament.

This does not mean that John was greater than Mary. "All generations shall call me (Mary) blessed" (Luke 1:48) and yet you want to denigrate her holiness... That's blasphemy. You are not obeying the Scriptures when you do not call her "blessed by all generations". "ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME (Mary) BLESSED", not John the Baptist.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You obviously did not understand what the meaning of the text was. It was Jesus saying to us that the New Testament is much better than the Old and that the Christians who are "least in the Kingdom of God" are even greater than the greatest Old Testament Prophets (John the Baptist)... Is that so hard to get through your head?

The meaning of Jesus' words was not to exalt John the Baptist's birth but to state that the Old Testament believers are not nearly as great as the New Testament.

So Jesus lied when he stated as fact that among all people born of a woman there is non greater than John the baptist??

Wow. And you expect people to fall on their knees and embrace your religion which teaches Jesus is a liar?

Jesus was not wasting his breath when he said that. He stated a fact. And he also stated a fact that even we, who are in the NT Church, are greater than he (which would place us greater than mary) Because we have something they never had. Not to mention, what we would have to go through.

This does not mean that John was greater than Mary.

Thats not what Jesus said!

"All generations shall call me (Mary) blessed" (Luke 1:48)

Blessed:
μᾰκᾰρίζω, f. Att. ιῶ, (μάκα&#961 to bless, to deem or pronounce happy, Lat. gratulari, Od., Hdt., Att.; ironically, μακαρίσαντες ὑμῶν τὸ ἀπειρόκακον while we bless your simplicity, Thuc.

Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon : Abridged from Liddell and Scott's Greek-English lexicon (484). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Sorry, I don't see anything in here which states she is supposed to be "deemed to be the greatest who ever lived"\


Mary was "blessed" among WOMEN because she had the priviledge to give birth to the savior of men. Any woman would want this blessing. but God gave it to mary. Who could be more blessed?? (Happy)

and yet you want to denigrate her holiness... That's blasphemy. You are not obeying the Scriptures when you do not call her "blessed by all generations". "ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME (Mary) BLESSED", not John the Baptist.

1. Blessed does not mean Holy. It means Made happy, Because you are given something,
2. Mary was a sinner, Just like I was, and needed her son to save her
3. Mary is blessed among all women. I do not deny that. nor would I preach against it.
4. Jesus said John was the greatest person born of woman up until his time. To teach otherwise is to call Jesus a liar. You don't make a statement to explain something by making a statement that is not true. If Mary was greater. Jesus would have said. There is no one greater than mary which is born of a woman. But even........

 

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

So Jesus lied when he stated as fact that among all people born of a woman there is non greater than John the baptist??

Wow. And you expect people to fall on their knees and embrace your religion which teaches Jesus is a liar?

Jesus was not wasting his breath when he said that. He stated a fact. And he also stated a fact that even we, who are in the NT Church, are greater than he (which would place us greater than mary) Because we have something they never had. Not to mention, what we would have to go through.

Thats not what Jesus said!

This would not "place us greater than Mary", that's blasphemy, you want to say you're are better than Mary, the "Mother of my Lord"? (Luke 1:43). "Why should this happen to me, to have the mother of my Lord visit me?" The Scriptures testify, not saying that we are better than Mary, the Mother of God, in fact it says the opposite.

What do you mean by "we have something they never had?

Blessed:
μᾰκᾰρίζω, f. Att. ιῶ, (μάκα&#961 to bless, to deem or pronounce happy, Lat. gratulari, Od., Hdt., Att.; ironically, μακαρίσαντες ὑμῶν τὸ ἀπειρόκακον while we bless your simplicity, Thuc.

Liddell, H. (1996). A lexicon : Abridged from Liddell and Scott's Greek-English lexicon (484). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Sorry, I don't see anything in here which states she is supposed to be "deemed to be the greatest who ever lived"

Mary was "blessed" among WOMEN because she had the priviledge to give birth to the savior of men. Any woman would want this blessing. but God gave it to mary. Who could be more blessed?? (Happy)

The Strong's Concordance says, "From G3107; to beatify, that is, pronounce (or esteem) fortunate: - call blessed, count happy.

What does the word blessed mean in the English?

Blessed | Define Blessed at Dictionary.com

1.
consecrated; sacred; holy; sanctified: the Blessed Sacrament.
2.
worthy of adoration, reverence, or worship: the Blessed Trinity.


When you say it only means that she is "happy", you are taking the wrong definition.

1. Blessed does not mean Holy. It means Made happy, Because you are given something,
2. Mary was a sinner, Just like I was, and needed her son to save her
3. Mary is blessed among all women. I do not deny that. nor would I preach against it.
4. Jesus said John was the greatest person born of woman up until his time. To teach otherwise is to call Jesus a liar. You don't make a statement to explain something by making a statement that is not true. If Mary was greater. Jesus would have said. There is no one greater than mary which is born of a woman. But even........

According to the English definition of blessed, it does mean that she is holy. 1.
consecrated; sacred; holy; sanctified: the Blessed Sacrament.

Yes, Jesus did teach that John was the greatest until that time, but the main moral of the teaching is that the Christians (including Mary) who are the "least in the Kingdom of God" would to greater than he.
In other words, it does not matter anymore how great the birth of John the Baptist was because even the least Christian who is "born again" (John 3:3) is better than him.

Jesus was not trying to state how John the Baptist was "the greatest", he was pronouncing CHRISTIANS (including Mary) as being much better than the Old Testament Prophets (which John the Baptist was one of). Jesus was talking about Christian who were being "born again" (see John 3:3) as being greater than the noble birth of John the Baptist. Do you get it now?

I suggest you read the text again. "He that is LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven is GREATER THAN HE (John the Baptist)"