Does the Ever-virginity of Mary Contradict Scripture?

[jimmydiggs]

1 tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 4:16 (ESV)
16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.





Hebrews 7:25 (ESV)
25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.




Just a sample...

 

[lil_christian]

1 tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 4:16 (ESV)
16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.





Hebrews 7:25 (ESV)
25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.




Just a sample...

EDIT: they're very good samples!

Hmm. Didn't give 1 Tim. or Hebrews 7...but I did give Hebrews 4. But they don't believe either you or me. Seriously, I don't believe that the saints can do anything. They were just sinners. Just like us.

 

[SantoSubito]

Would it make sense if Luke 2:11 said:

Luke 2:11
For UNTIL you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

instead of:

Luke 2:11
For UNTO you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

I don't think it would make much sense.


NOTE: I'm not adding or subtracting or twisting Scripture. I am showing you that unto and until are NOT the same thing.

Until implies that it happened afterwards. It also answers in an adverb phrase, WHEN. Unto does not.

Greek has no word for "unto" and the word "unto" in the English version is supplied by the translators to make it readable. Even then "unto" in this sense is used as "to" with "unto" just being higher register English. In Greek the endings give us the "to" just like in Latin where you make a pronoun ablative to make it say "to whom" or "for whom". For example heres the passage in Latin:


Vulgate: Luke Chapter 2

[11] quia natus est vobis hodie salvator qui est Christus Dominus in civitate David

See that bold-faced "vobis" thats the ablative form of "vos" and it's saying "to you" because of it's ending and Greek does the same thing, except in Greek you make the pronoun dative. The Latin word for until carries the same meaning as the Greek, it only addresses what happens up until a point in time and says nothing about what happened after. Sadly English has no equivalent for the Greek and Latin word for "until".

 

[StMichaelTheArchangel]

Where's it say the saints aren't dead?

Here's four:


Jud_1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Rev_5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev_8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev_8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.




So do you guy think its okay to overlook some of these verses where are actually described Saints in Heaven praying to God for us?

Pick and Choose Theology is nothing but delusion, it is not for people who seek the Entire Truth.

 

[lil_christian]

Here's four:


Jud_1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Rev_5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev_8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev_8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Yeah...the saints who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and have DIED. The prayers of the saints. Once again. The Bible has in places called the Christians Saints.

 

[dscherck]

Where's it say the saints aren't dead?

Mark 12:27 tells us that God is the God of the living not the dead.

We see in Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30; that Moses is alive as is Elijah.

We see in Luke 15:7,10 that the saints in heaven experience joy at our repentance.

We know that it's not just the angels in Heaven who watch over us and offer prayers, we see that the elders (humans) fell down before God's throne in worship and offered Him the prayers of the saints here on earth. in Revelation 5:8.

Christ is the living vine, how can death separate those joined to Him from each other?

 

[jimmydiggs]

But they don't believe either you or me.

I'm lone wolfin' this one.

Seriously, I don't believe that the saints can do anything. They were just sinners. Just like us.

This is where you've messed up a bit.


James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Also, this is a good overview of the matter of Sanctification.

What are Christian saints according to the Bible?

Reformation Theology: Sanctification via Union With Christ <--- sanctification

 

[lil_christian]

Greek has no word for "unto" and the word "unto" in the English version is supplied by the translators to make it readable. Even then "unto" in this sense is used as "to" with "unto" just being higher register English. In Greek the endings give us the "to" just like in Latin where you make a pronoun ablative to make it say "to whom" or "for whom". For example heres the passage in Latin:


Vulgate: Luke Chapter 2

[11] quia natus est vobis hodie salvator qui est Christus Dominus in civitate David

See that bold-faced "vobis" thats the ablative form of "vos" and it's saying "to you" because of it's ending and Greek does the same thing, except in Greek you make the pronoun dative. The Latin word for until carries the same meaning as the Greek, it only addresses what happens up until a point in time and says nothing about what happened after. Sadly English has no equivalent for the Greek and Latin word for "until".

Still. Until implies it happened afterwards. So until Mary had Jesus, she was kept a virgin. AFTER she had Jesus, she was NOT a virgin.

 

[lil_christian]

I'm lone wolfin' this one.


This is where you've messed up a bit.


James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Also, this is a good overview of the matter of Sanctification.

What are Christian saints according to the Bible?

Reformation Theology: Sanctification via Union With Christ <--- sanctification

We are made righteous through Jesus Christ. I didn't say that prayer is not effective or anything like that. Prayer is powerful. God's Word is powerful. We can do ALL things through Christ...but not when you're dead physically...and definitely not if you're "dead" spiritually. (Not admitting total depravity...sorry lone ranger- er, wolf. )

 

[dscherck]

Still. Until implies it happened afterwards. So until Mary had Jesus, she was kept a virgin. AFTER she had Jesus, she was NOT a virgin.

Only in English does it imply something. Not in the language used by the Gospel writers.

 

[lil_christian]

Mark 12:27 tells us that God is the God of the living not the dead.

We see in Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30; that Moses is alive as is Elijah.

We see in Luke 15:7,10 that the saints in heaven experience joy at our repentance.

We know that it's not just the angels in Heaven who watch over us and offer prayers, we see that the elders (humans) fell down before God's throne in worship and offered Him the prayers of the saints here on earth. in Revelation 5:8.

Christ is the living vine, how can death separate those joined to Him from each other?

So? That just means we have eternal life. We don't perish, we aren't condemned.

 

[lil_christian]

Only in English does it imply something. Not in the language used by the Gospel writers.

Pretty sure God intended the Bible for EVERY Christian's understanding....and everyone's making it to the point where you have to have a degree in theology to know what the Bible said.

 

[SantoSubito]

Still. Until implies it happened afterwards. So until Mary had Jesus, she was kept a virgin. AFTER she had Jesus, she was NOT a virgin.

Your still not getting it. In English the word "until" does imply a change of state after an event, but the Greek word for "until" does not imply a change of state after an event, it only addresses what happened up to an event and not what happened after. The only reason we even translate as "until" is because that's the closest we can get. The only way to convey the meaning of the Greek word "until" in that passage would be to use a whole sentence in English.

 

[SantoSubito]

Pretty sure God intended the Bible for EVERY Christian's understanding....and everyone's making it to the point where you have to have a degree in theology to know what the Bible said.

Not really. Your Bible was translated by fallible men using a limited language so it's bound to have shortcomings, like words that mean something different than what they mean in the Greek.

 

[lil_christian]

Mark 12:18-27

18Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
19Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
20Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
21And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
22And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like I said Nestorianism is with us to this day. By denying that Christ was fully God and fully man from the moment of his conception you have separated the two natures of Christ. The Church rejected this view when Nestorius put it forth and the Church rejects it still.

Well that's good that YOUR CHURCH condemns it. However. It does not mean your church is the true church. Again, Your whole foundation in this so called doctrine is based on might be's and maybe's. God has never based any doctrine he ever had on might be and maybe's.

mary bore Christ's humanity. She did not bore God. God never had a beginning or end. Those are the facts. Jesus himself said this when he made it clear, "Before abraham was I AM. He existed outside of time and space. The flesh Mary Gave Christ brought him into time and space. But she did not bore God. God was before mary,

 

[jimmydiggs]

(Not admitting total depravity...sorry lone ranger- er, wolf. )

That's why I'm lone wolfin' it. Your views concerning that matter are very Catholic.

 

[lil_christian]

Not really. Your Bible was translated by fallible men using a limited language so it's bound to have shortcomings, like words that mean something different than what they mean in the Greek.

No, I've been pretty much been using the King James for this debate. I've used the New American Standard Version. But it doesn't really stray far from the King James Version. It doesn't have the "Thy's" "thee's" and "thou's" and old English kind of style.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Pretty sure God intended the Bible for EVERY Christian's understanding....and everyone's making it to the point where you have to have a degree in theology to know what the Bible said.

That's because it's not a Sunday comic strip you find in the bible. It requires study.

 

[jimmydiggs]

No, I've been pretty much been using the King James for this debate. I've used the New American Standard Version. But it doesn't really stray far from the King James Version. It doesn't have the "Thy's" "thee's" and "thou's" and old English kind of style.

The KJV Isn't as great as the IFB or "Bible Baptists" claim.