The timing of the rapture?

[Baptistrw]

Your turn Lil-warrior, or any other pretribber that wants to explain why they believe the rapture is before the tribulation. I really would like to hear your view on the subject, especially since it seems to be the dominant view, yet oddly has no biblical basis at all.

How could Jesus return follow certain signs (Matthew 24:4-8 for example), but also be as a thief in the night which is to say, unexpected(1 Thes. 5:2, Matthew 24:42 among many passages)? The Rapture is the answer. There are 2 separate Second Comings, the first the Rapture, the second the glorious appearance at the end of the 7 year trib. How can the church come back with Christ at the Glorious appearance (Rev. 17:14) if they were still on earth? The pretrib rapture is the answer.



51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Cor 15:51-53 (KJV)


We won't all die, but we will all be changed... Some will be translated directly to heaven bypassing death.


Also, 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:13-17 (KJV)

 

[onwingsaseagles]

How could Jesus return follow certain signs (Matthew 24:4-8 for example), but also be as a thief in the night which is to say, unexpected(1 Thes. 5:2, Matthew 24:42 among many passages)? The Rapture is the answer. There are 2 separate Second Comings, the first the Rapture, the second the glorious appearance at the end of the 7 year trib. How can the church come back with Christ at the Glorious appearance (Rev. 17:14) if they were still on earth? The pretrib rapture is the answer.



51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Cor 15:51-53 (KJV)


We won't all die, but we will all be changed... Some will be translated directly to heaven bypassing death.


Also, 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thess 4:13-17 (KJV)

You seem by your statements to be trying to promote a pretrib view, but the scriptures you give prove the post trib. The 1st scripture you gave 1st Cor 15:51-53 says the rapture is at the last trump which we know cannot be before the tribulation because there are trumpets sounded all through the book of Revelation, and one is sounded at Jesus' post trib return when He comes to gather His elect, this is the last trump and it is post trib. The next verse you gave 1st Thess 4:13-17 says in verse 15 that the rapture takes place at the coming of the Lord which you call ''the glorious coming'' to which you admit is post trib.

To answer your question as to how the church returns with Christ if they are still on earth at the 2nd coming is easy.
#1 Most of the church will not be on earth, they have died already and are in heaven. They return from heaven with Jesus just as 1st Thess 4:14 says.
#2 Jesus is going to rapture us on His way to earth and we are going to meet Him in the air just as 1st Thess 14:17 says, and then we come with Christ as He continues His descent to earth.

 

[sweetnshy]

Onwings, Baptistrw was saying that the rapture and Christ's return to earth are 2 separate events. When he posted the scripture about Christ coming at the last trumpet, he was saying that's Christ's return to earth after the tribulation. He wasn't saying the rapture is post-trib.

At least that was my understanding.........correct me if I'm wrong, baptistrw.

 

[lovespeace123]

The interesting thing is that most principles and prophecy in the Bibles have pre-cursors and events that happened before them that reveal what God will do. Solomon said that there is nothing new under the sun.
The only people recorded raptured were Elijah and Enoch, though if you 'do not go beyond what is written' - as the Bible says, even saying that Enoch was raptured/whisked away is a stretch. That leaves Elijah and well, if I dare say so...Elijahs in this generation are few, if any exist. This church has a ways to go before making it to Elijah status.

What is the mystery is why Paul, Peter, and Jude all spoke of end times and God's deliverance, but there is no recorded 'rapture' of the first testament church. All you see is martyrdom. The closest any of them came to seeing Christ come in his glory was Stephen, who as He was being stoned - saw.



SAm

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Onwings, Baptistrw was saying that the rapture and Christ's return to earth are 2 separate events. When he posted the scripture about Christ coming at the last trumpet, he was saying that's Christ's return to earth after the tribulation. He wasn't saying the rapture is post-trib.

At least that was my understanding.........correct me if I'm wrong, baptistrw.

Yes, but if you read 1st Cor 15:51-53 there is no mistaking that this is referring to the rapture. The living are change incorruptable at the rapture and this happens at the last trump. The only biblical interpretation is that of a post trib rapture.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

It is unbelievable to me the margin of deceit that this poll has shown. 18 for pretrib, 3 for mid, 3 for post and 8 other. The Bible could not be more clear that the rapture is simultaneous with the post trib 2nd coming of Christ. We are almost to the 7th page of this thread and although the pretrib view is far and large the favorite view. There has not been one verse given to support it. Even the versres given that are supposed to support it actually prove post trib themselves. It is sad that satan has so deceived the church that this obtusely false belief would be the most widely accepted, while the truth is often rejected.

 

[Baptistrw]

Onwings, Baptistrw was saying that the rapture and Christ's return to earth are 2 separate events. When he posted the scripture about Christ coming at the last trumpet, he was saying that's Christ's return to earth after the tribulation. He wasn't saying the rapture is post-trib.

At least that was my understanding.........correct me if I'm wrong, baptistrw.

The Rapture and Second Coming aka Glorious Appearing are 2 separate events, separated by 7 years.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

The Rapture and Second Coming aka Glorious Appearing are 2 separate events, separated by 7 years.

Give one verse that backs up this claim.

 

[Baptistrw]

It is unbelievable to me the margin of deceit that this poll has shown. 18 for pretrib, 3 for mid, 3 for post and 8 other. The Bible could not be more clear that the rapture is simultaneous with the post trib 2nd coming of Christ. We are almost to the 7th page of this thread and although the pretrib view is far and large the favorite view. There has not been one verse given to support it. Even the versres given that are supposed to support it actually prove post trib themselves. It is sad that satan has so deceived the church that this obtusely false belief would be the most widely accepted, while the truth is often rejected.

I didn't believe in the rapture til I saw the evidence documented in a book called 'When Will Jesus Come" by Dave Hunt. I'd recommend reading it if I were you.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

The Rapture and Second Coming aka Glorious Appearing are 2 separate events, separated by 7 years.

The Bible says just the opposite. 1st John 3:2 says when Christ appears we will be as He is.

When does Christ appear? ''At the glorious coming''
When will we be like Christ? At the rapture.

These 2 event are at the same time any other view is anti biblical.

Also 2nd Thess 1:7-8 say we (who are a live at Christ glorious coming) will receive rest (raptured) when He is revealed with His mighty angels (at the glorious coming)

The rapture happens at the 2nd coming not 7 years before as false teachers claim.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I didn't believe in the rapture til I saw the evidence documented in a book called 'When Will Jesus Come" by Dave Hunt. I'd recommend reading it if I were you.

I have read the Bible and i believe in the rapture it is the timing that you are confused about. We are rapture when Jesus returns ''immediately after the tribulation'' not before it.

 

[Baptistrw]

Give one verse that backs up this claim.

Jesus said there will be obvious signs that the Second Coming is coming, yet He also says it will come as a thief in the night. Something can't be obvious as there are signs pointing to it, and totally suprising at the same time. Either that's a blatant contradiction and Jesus didn't know what He was talking about, or there are 2 "comings" in the future. The tribulation is 7 years, that's obvious from scripture, as the final week of years alluded to in Daniel has not happened. The end of the tribulation is the Glorious appearance, so what sets off the 7 year tribulation? The rapture. The rapture is the only scenario that would make sense to how one man could gain power over the entire earth.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Jesus said there will be obvious signs that the Second Coming is coming, yet He also says it will come as a thief in the night. Something can't be obvious as there are signs pointing to it, and totally suprising at the same time. Either that's a blatant contradiction and Jesus didn't know what He was talking about, or there are 2 "comings" in the future. The tribulation is 7 years, that's obvious from scripture, as the final week of years alluded to in Daniel has not happened. The end of the tribulation is the Glorious appearance, so what sets off the 7 year tribulation? The rapture. The rapture is the only scenario that would make sense to how one man could gain power over the entire earth.

1st Thess 5:2-4 say the world would be taken off guard but not the Christians.

1st Thess 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.



Just like in Matthew 24 it says that the world would be taken unaware by the coming of Christ just like in Noah's day.


Matthew 24:37-41
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

But Noah knew The Flood was coming and we will know that Jesus is returning soon as well because of the signs, but the world will be taken off guard. so Jesus is coming back after obvious sign (obvious to the believer) but also as a thief ( a thief to the unbeliever).

Matthew 24 29- 31 says that this coming will be after the tribulation not before it.

Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


As you can see in verses 40 and 41 of Matthew 24 it is at this post trib return of Christ that the rapture takes place. There is not two 2nd coming separated by 7 years as baptistrw claims. There is one 2nd coming and it is aftwer the tribulation and this is when the rapture is. There is not one verse in all of scripture to support baptistrw's false claims.

 

[sweetnshy]

It is unbelievable to me the margin of deceit that this poll has shown. 18 for pretrib, 3 for mid, 3 for post and 8 other. The Bible could not be more clear that the rapture is simultaneous with the post trib 2nd coming of Christ. We are almost to the 7th page of this thread and although the pretrib view is far and large the favorite view. There has not been one verse given to support it. Even the versres given that are supposed to support it actually prove post trib themselves. It is sad that satan has so deceived the church that this obtusely false belief would be the most widely accepted, while the truth is often rejected.

No offense here, but I think a lot of us are reluctant to post because you keep telling everyone they're wrong. You've also said at least twice that not one person has given any biblical support for a pre-trib rapture, and many people have, but you just say that they're either misinterpreting the verses or that they're being deceived. I find it interesting that at the beginning of the thread, you said this was just a poll to see what people believed, and yet now it seems that it's about trying to convince everyone of your beliefs.

You posted awhile back about how whether we believe in pre- or post-trib rapture is important because if people believe it's pre-trib, then we'll be left thinking God hasn't followed through on His promise if the tribulation happens and we're still here. I personally believe in a pre-trib rapture, but if it ends up being post-trib, I won't feel that God broke His promise. I'll just be reminded that pre-trib was one interpretation, and if I'm wrong, that's okay. The important thing is that Jesus is coming back--not when He does it.

 

[Lil_warrior]

AMEN!!!! AMEN.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

No offense here, but I think a lot of us are reluctant to post because you keep telling everyone they're wrong. You've also said at least twice that not one person has given any biblical support for a pre-trib rapture, and many people have, but you just say that they're either misinterpreting the verses or that they're being deceived. I find it interesting that at the beginning of the thread, you said this was just a poll to see what people believed, and yet now it seems that it's about trying to convince everyone of your beliefs.

You posted awhile back about how whether we believe in pre- or post-trib rapture is important because if people believe it's pre-trib, then we'll be left thinking God hasn't followed through on His promise if the tribulation happens and we're still here. I personally believe in a pre-trib rapture, but if it ends up being post-trib, I won't feel that God broke His promise. I'll just be reminded that pre-trib was one interpretation, and if I'm wrong, that's okay. The important thing is that Jesus is coming back--not when He does it.

I am glad that you will not feel God has broken his promise and I am sure there are others like you, however there will be amny thatdo turn on God during the tribulation because of the false teaching of the pretrib rapture, and no not one person has given one verse to support the pretrib teaching.. Baptistrw tried to give some but they were 1 st Cor 15:51-53 and 1st Thess 4:13-17 and both of those verse prove post trib not pre.

1st Cor 15:51-53 says that the rapture is at the last trump which proves post trib

1st Cor 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

And 1st Thess 4:13-17 says that the rapture is at the coming of the Lord which also know is post trib.

1st Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So like you said even when it is attempted to give a scripture to support your view it goes to disprove what you are trying to prove. Look at these 2 passages that baptistrw gave in support of the pretrib view and tell me here he go the idea that the rapture is before the tribulation from them.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

The pretrib rapture is an anti biblical false teaching. plain and simple.

 

[sweetnshy]

Yeah I think we all know that's what you believe, but could you please have respect for those of us who might believe differently?

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Yeah I think we all know that's what you believe, but could you please have respect for those of us who might believe differently?

Could you please point out in the verses that baptistrw gave ''1st cor 15:51-53 and 1st Thess 4:13-17'' where he got the pretrib idea from in those verses, or maybe give a verse or two of your own, with an explaination of how you get the pretrib idea from them? If you can do niether, then explain why you would believe something that the Bible does not teach.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Yeah I think we all know that's what you believe, but could you please have respect for those of us who might believe differently?

If you believe differently then you should have a biblical reason as to why you would believe pretrib, maybe you could enlighten me?