Misunderstanding of Hell

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T

Tombo

Guest
#1
#1
Hell will not be a place, hell is a condition of being under God's wrath. At the end of the world, people will either be saved and have eternal life, or they will be lost and perish. Jesus said to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell (gehenna). Gehenna was the place outside of Israel where they burned up their trash and refuse. It was continually burning. It was a fit description of the destruction of the unsaved at the end of the world. God will not eternally torment people in a literal place called hell. God is just and will meet out to each lost one what they deserve. Jesus said that the one who knew the masters will and didn't do it will be beaten with many stripes; but the one who didn't know will be beaten with few. If God inteneded to eternally tormant people this verse would not make sense. I hear people saying that this verse teaches degees of hell. But whether you are beaten with many or few stripes, what difference would it make if it went on unceasingly??? I recommend a book by Edward Fudge called "The fire that consumes". I too used to believe in eternal conscious torment, but if we let the verses of the Bible say what they say, we will see it clearly. It's curious that there is no teaching of hell in the old testament. And in the new testament there are only two verses in Revelation (a highly symbolic book) that seem to teach eternal torment. The vast majority of the new testament verses teach the destruction and death of the wicked, but eternal life for the saved. The contrast is always between life and death. Jesus says I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes on Him shall not PERISH, but have eternal life. If everyone will have eternal life (the saved and unsaved) this verse too would make no sense.
The problem came in in the early centuries of the church with the teaching of the immortality of the soul. It was carried over from greek philosophy. The greeks taught that the soul is immortal, but the Bible does not. The Biblle says that only God is immortal, and that he grants immortality to those in Christ. I could go on, but I really encourage people to get get the book, "The fire that consumes" by Edward Fudge. It is quite exhaustive on the subject.
God bless!!!!!!!

Tom
 
2knowhim

2knowhim

Banned
#2
Oct 12, 2011
1,123
3
0
#2
Tombo said:
Hell will not be a place, hell is a condition of being under God's wrath. At the end of the world, people will either be saved and have eternal life, or they will be lost and perish. Jesus said to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell (gehenna). Gehenna was the place outside of Israel where they burned up their trash and refuse. It was continually burning. It was a fit description of the destruction of the unsaved at the end of the world. God will not eternally torment people in a literal place called hell. God is just and will meet out to each lost one what they deserve. Jesus said that the one who knew the masters will and didn't do it will be beaten with many stripes; but the one who didn't know will be beaten with few. If God inteneded to eternally tormant people this verse would not make sense. I hear people saying that this verse teaches degees of hell. But whether you are beaten with many or few stripes, what difference would it make if it went on unceasingly??? I recommend a book by Edward Fudge called "The fire that consumes". I too used to believe in eternal conscious torment, but if we let the verses of the Bible say what they say, we will see it clearly. It's curious that there is no teaching of hell in the old testament. And in the new testament there are only two verses in Revelation (a highly symbolic book) that seem to teach eternal torment. The vast majority of the new testament verses teach the destruction and death of the wicked, but eternal life for the saved. The contrast is always between life and death. Jesus says I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes on Him shall not PERISH, but have eternal life. If everyone will have eternal life (the saved and unsaved) this verse too would make no sense.
The problem came in in the early centuries of the church with the teaching of the immortality of the soul. It was carried over from greek philosophy. The greeks taught that the soul is immortal, but the Bible does not. The Biblle says that only God is immortal, and that he grants immortality to those in Christ. I could go on, but I really encourage people to get get the book, "The fire that consumes" by Edward Fudge. It is quite exhaustive on the subject.
God bless!!!!!!!

Tom
Click to expand...

I too know what it's like to come out of such a teaching it is freeing indeed, but, there is much more that needs to be examined. Such as the Word, eternal, everlasting, and forever and ever.

We all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God, but the destruction and death of the wicked is not the end of the story though. All shall be Saved.

Salvation must be as All encompassing as Sin, or else that would make sin and man's will, stronger than God's will. The fire that consumes is a Divine Purifying Fire, that does consume, but What does it consume? All that is not of God.

Examine the word brimstone, it's an eye opener.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

A proper translation of Scripture will show what this is all about for example:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'


Joh 3:15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
Joh 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.


If you would like further material for your studies I would be happy to give you more.

Blessings
 
G

greatblue

Guest
#3
#3
2knowhim said:
If you would like further material for your studies I would be happy to give you more.
Click to expand...
We all misunderstand hell. Christ holds the keys to hell, so just focus on following Christ NOW.

I've seen two posts from tombo and both promote a book from a man. So, I discern a voice that says, "Hey Ill start a post and mention a book people should read." That is called a marketing segue.

And then on an entirely separate thread I hear, "Hey I'll throw in my two cents and then follow it up by promoting a book I think people should read."

Twice reeks of an agenda.

This is why I appreciate the change from KJ "corrupt" to NKJ "peddle" because it captures the Pharisaic heart that would indeed infect Christ's word with man-made doctrine, false teaching, and corrupting God's precious sacrifice of His Son in making it a financing vehicle.

2 Cor 2:17, "For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ."
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#4
#4
Hello, Thank you for the reply. I must respectfully disagree with you that all will be saved. The position that I hold is commonly called conditional immortality; namely, that all who God gives eternal life to will be saved and live forever. The Bible is crystal clear that there will be a great seperation at the end of the world with the goats on one side and sheep on the other. The age during/ everlasting destruction that you speak of means just that. In the eternal realm, as opposed to time, we will either be punished and destroyed age during, or we will be saved and given life age during.
The Bible gives no hope of the universal salvation that you speak of. God speaks of the unsaved as the children of the devil and the saved as the Sons of God.
Anyone who thinks that all will be saved make a shambles of the teaching of the Bible. God doesn't have more than one way of salvation. We are either saved by the death of Christ, or we will be punished and destroyed. If people could be saved simply by going through a purifying fire, there would have been no need for Christ to come and bear our sins for us.
I can understand your desire to see all saved, but it's simply not taught in God's word. God is still God, and He will have mercy on whom He will. Remember Romans 9:13-18. Romans 9:19-24 is really eye opening; "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the gentiles?
I'm afraid the positon that I hold is unpopular because of the teachings of other false religions that hold that there is no hell. I don't hold that position. I just simply think that hell has been misunderstood in the Church ( but certainly not by all) for many centuries, just like the doctrine of justification through faith in Christ alone was reproclaimed during the reformation. I think that people have erred by believing that we have inherent immortality instead of it being a gift of God through Christ.
God is not compelled to save anyone. And why he saves even one, let alone a multitude which cannot be numbered throughout the ages is a testament to His grace and lovingkindness.
Let all glory be given to our triune God!!!!!

Tom
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#6
#6
greatblue said:
We all misunderstand hell. Christ holds the keys to hell, so just focus on following Christ NOW.

I've seen two posts from tombo and both promote a book from a man. So, I discern a voice that says, "Hey Ill start a post and mention a book people should read." That is called a marketing segue.

And then on an entirely separate thread I hear, "Hey I'll throw in my two cents and then follow it up by promoting a book I think people should read."

Twice reeks of an agenda.

This is why I appreciate the change from KJ "corrupt" to NKJ "peddle" because it captures the Pharisaic heart that would indeed infect Christ's word with man-made doctrine, false teaching, and corrupting God's precious sacrifice of His Son in making it a financing vehicle.

2 Cor 2:17, "For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ."
Click to expand...
I'm sorry that you feel I'm peddling someone's book. I only mentioned it because it goes much more in depth on the subject than I could ever do on a forum such as this. I do not know Edward Fudge, and I am in no way receiving any monetary gain by mentioning his book. In fact, you'll notice that in my reply to the last poster, I didn't even mention his book. I took all my evidence from the Bible.
It is true that I discussed this in another thread (I'm not ashamed, I have no hidden aganeda) and that I thought anohter seperate thread on the subject of hell itself would be helpful for all of us to look at.
But I know where you're coming from. It is hard to give up a teaching that has been ingrained into us from youth. It sounds like strange doctrine or the rantings of a false teacher. I'm sure many in Luther's time thought the same thing of him. And I'm not comparing myself to Luther!!!! I'm just someone who has mulled over this for a long time and found a book that helped me greatly. God did, after all, give us teachers because no one knows everything.
If you want to refute what I'm saying, please use scripture. Please take the time to let me know why you believe what you believe and give the scriptures to back it up.
In fact, I will go through my previous posts and remove any mention to anyone's book. I don't want to give the apperance that I'm just trying to promote someones teaching, or worse, trying to make money from it!!!!
God bless you!!!!!

Tom
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#7
#7
I don't know why ( maybe because i've editied my previous posts several times for spelling and clarity) but I can't edit them now to remove mention of the offending book. But I will from this time on not mention that work. Not because I don't have the right, or because I think it's wrong in some way (actually, I don't agree with all he says) but I will refrain from mentioning it so as not to give an apperance of wrong and to keep the subject on on track.
Thanks.

Tom
 
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G

greatblue

Guest
#8
#8
2knowhim said:
Salvation must be as All encompassing as Sin, or else that would make sin and man's will, stronger than God's will. The fire that consumes is a Divine Purifying Fire, that does consume, but What does it consume? All that is not of God.
Click to expand...
Why are you even playing with this idea? What does it afford you? I get the feeling that you hang on this universal approach because you otherwise question the goodness of God...is this true? The idea you purport on sin and man's will being stronger is nonsensical. Did God reveal Himself to all nations? Not until Jesus Christ. The price Christ paid was for paid for all, but salvation is clearly not for all. He died the same death alongside the two crucified with Him, but only one believed and received.

Luke 23:39-43 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ,[j] save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord,[k] remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”

43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

V39 "save" yourself is talking about physical saving in that moment. V42 a profession of faith in Him and His kingdom, acknowledging beyond the moment. V43 "Assuredly" is a Christ directive of truth, and it is His word that holds us. In fact, to a degree we can say that this is God "swearing" on His own name. Not in a pejorative sense of swearing, but in His provable oath sense as "I AM".

v 43 He says, "I AM", I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Where in that do you read the other criminal was saved as well?

The dispensing of God's grace is in the hands of Christ and He gives it to those who follow Him.
 
G

greatblue

Guest
#9
#9
Tombo said:
I don't know why ( maybe because i've editied my previous posts several times for spelling and clarity) but I can't edit them now to remove mention of the offending book. But I will from this time on not mention that work. Not because I don't have the right, or because I think it's wrong in some way (actually, I don't agree with all he says) but I will refrain from mentioning it so as not to give an apperance of wrong and to keep the subject on on track.
Thanks.

Tom
Click to expand...
Tom, I offended you by asserting a claim, and I am humbled by your response. Please forgive my arrogant heart. Who am I to say anything? It is a mistake I make often in these forums. I didn't/don't know your intentions for that book, but when I saw two, I "jumped" to a conclusion. If you stick around you will see times when others post or spam something marketable, etc. On yours I saw a new account date, a handful of posts count, and read two posts mentioning the same third party text. I have soooooo much room for growth in my walk with Jesus Christ, which is a good thing...I hope.

Blessings, and thank you for your humility...
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#10
#10
greatblue said:
Tom, I offended you by asserting a claim, and I am humbled by your response. Please forgive my arrogant heart. Who am I to say anything? It is a mistake I make often in these forums. I didn't/don't know your intentions for that book, but when I saw two, I "jumped" to a conclusion. If you stick around you will see times when others post or spam something marketable, etc. On yours I saw a new account date, a handful of posts count, and read two posts mentioning the same third party text. I have soooooo much room for growth in my walk with Jesus Christ, which is a good thing...I hope.

Blessings, and thank you for your humility...
Click to expand...
We all need growth in grace, my friend. If you only knew my heart, I am continually in need of forgiveness!!!! And praise be to Him, he always does forgive again and again. If our salvation were not secure in Christ, I would despair of this heart of mine.
God bless you, brother :)

Tom
 
2knowhim

2knowhim

Banned
#11
Oct 12, 2011
1,123
3
0
#11
Greatblue,

You asked me:Why are you even playing with this idea? What does it afford you? I get the feeling that you hang on this universal approach because you otherwise question the goodness of God...is this true?

I don't play with the Word or The Spirit of God. And this is not an idea, but it is Truth that God will have
All to be saved. I've known this for yrs. It did not come from man or his teachings, It came by The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

And I don't understand how you think that I'm questioning the goodness of God, I know the His goodness,
And believe His Mercy and Grace goes far beyond The Grave.
You limit God to saving someone only while in the Flesh, I believe He saves to The Uttermost.

Some never find Life in this physical realm, many go by the way of destruction, but that does not mean that there is no hope beyond a heartbeat. God told us to Love our Enemies, do good to those that use us and abuse us, Does He do any different than what He told us? God is not a hypocrite.

God will be All in All, Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to The Glory of The Father.

For He is The Savior of All men, Especially to those who believe.
For God was in Christ Reconciling The World unto Himself, not imputing their sins unto them, and has given unto us The Word of Reconciliation.


Blessings
 
Avinu

Avinu

Banned
#12
May 18, 2011
1,815
10
0
#12
Hell will not be a place, hell is a condition of being under God's wrath. At the end of the world, people will either be saved and have eternal life, or they will be lost and perish. Jesus said to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell (gehenna). Gehenna was the place outside of Israel where they burned up their trash and refuse. It was continually burning. It was a fit description of the destruction of the unsaved at the end of the world. God will not eternally torment people in a literal place called hell. God is just and will meet out to each lost one what they deserve. Jesus said that the one who knew the masters will and didn't do it will be beaten with many stripes; but the one who didn't know will be beaten with few. If God inteneded to eternally tormant people this verse would not make sense. I hear people saying that this verse teaches degees of hell. But whether you are beaten with many or few stripes, what difference would it make if it went on unceasingly??? I recommend a book by Edward Fudge called "The fire that consumes". I too used to believe in eternal conscious torment, but if we let the verses of the Bible say what they say, we will see it clearly. It's curious that there is no teaching of hell in the old testament. And in the new testament there are only two verses in Revelation (a highly symbolic book) that seem to teach eternal torment. The vast majority of the new testament verses teach the destruction and death of the wicked, but eternal life for the saved. The contrast is always between life and death. Jesus says I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes on Him shall not PERISH, but have eternal life. If everyone will have eternal life (the saved and unsaved) this verse too would make no sense.
The problem came in in the early centuries of the church with the teaching of the immortality of the soul. It was carried over from greek philosophy. The greeks taught that the soul is immortal, but the Bible does not. The Biblle says that only God is immortal, and that he grants immortality to those in Christ. I could go on, but I really encourage people to get get the book, "The fire that consumes" by Edward Fudge. It is quite exhaustive on the subject.
God bless!!!!!!!
Click to expand...
Shalom, I am curious how you feel comfortable dismissing the scriptures that clearly state, mainly in Rev. about eternal torment. One being those who take the mark and worship the image of the beast, will suffer in fire & brimstone, Rev. 14:9-11, as well as Rev. 20:11-15. Where is your evidence that these things are not what they clearly state? Are you a Jehovah's witness?
And you're incorrect concerning about no teachings in OT about hell, it is called she'ol. Also what do you mean when you say, "hell is a condition of being under God's wrath." What do you mean by this?

H7585
שׁאל שׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

There are many verses in the OT that speak of she'ol which is the hebrew word for hell.
What you claim is those who die in there sin perish and exist no more, then they win either way, and have no loss. Because if they go to heaven they win, if they die in their sin and cease to exist, then they win because there is no punishment. If they cease to exist, then they don't know that they didn't enter into heaven, therefore they have no loss. Which would make Yeshua dying on the cross for nothing. What it boils down to is the Bible disagrees with what you claim, neither does it even remotely support what you say. The problem is you're encouraging people to read some man's book instead of encouraging them to study YHVH's word, and let the Ruach Hakadesh(Holy Spirit) reveal the truth to them. Shalom
 
2knowhim

2knowhim

Banned
#13
Oct 12, 2011
1,123
3
0
#13
Jesus said Let the dead bury their own dead.

Dead to God is something far different than what man believes.
 
Avinu

Avinu

Banned
#14
May 18, 2011
1,815
10
0
#14
Yes, Yeshua was saying let the spiritually dead bury their dead.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#15
#15
jonathanbchristian said:
hell is forever
Click to expand...
Revelation 20:14
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hell is translated as the grave, death and the grave is cast into the lake of fire.

In the new earth there will be no more death so no more hell (grave)

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
 
T

Trax

Guest
#17
#17
Tombo said:
Hell will not be a place, hell is a condition of being under God's wrath. At the end of the world, people will either be saved and have eternal life, or they will be lost and perish. Jesus said to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell (gehenna). Gehenna was the place outside of Israel where they burned up their trash and refuse. It was continually burning. It was a fit description of the destruction of the unsaved at the end of the world. God will not eternally torment people in a literal place called hell. God is just and will meet out to each lost one what they deserve. Jesus said that the one who knew the masters will and didn't do it will be beaten with many stripes; but the one who didn't know will be beaten with few. If God inteneded to eternally tormant people this verse would not make sense. I hear people saying that this verse teaches degees of hell. But whether you are beaten with many or few stripes, what difference would it make if it went on unceasingly??? I recommend a book by Edward Fudge called "The fire that consumes". I too used to believe in eternal conscious torment, but if we let the verses of the Bible say what they say, we will see it clearly. It's curious that there is no teaching of hell in the old testament. And in the new testament there are only two verses in Revelation (a highly symbolic book) that seem to teach eternal torment. The vast majority of the new testament verses teach the destruction and death of the wicked, but eternal life for the saved. The contrast is always between life and death. Jesus says I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes on Him shall not PERISH, but have eternal life. If everyone will have eternal life (the saved and unsaved) this verse too would make no sense.
The problem came in in the early centuries of the church with the teaching of the immortality of the soul. It was carried over from greek philosophy. The greeks taught that the soul is immortal, but the Bible does not. The Biblle says that only God is immortal, and that he grants immortality to those in Christ. I could go on, but I really encourage people to get get the book, "The fire that consumes" by Edward Fudge. It is quite exhaustive on the subject.
God bless!!!!!!!

Tom
Click to expand...

Mar 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 14:10-11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I prefer to believe what Jesus said than Edward Fudge. If you got the nonsense above from
ol Edward, then I prefer not to read what he says. He may be on his way to the lake of fire
and I prefer not to follow him. Why do people accept Jesus, then try to re-write theology for
Him?

Now, *IF* hell and torment isn't forever, and people are let out, then satan is let out too.
Then, were are back where we started with sin, corruption etc. The Lord is going to
put a stop to all this and they aren't getting out. People who want to preach that the lake
of fire isn't real, is most likely, on their way there, unless they repent.
 
2knowhim

2knowhim

Banned
#18
Oct 12, 2011
1,123
3
0
#18
Trax said:
Mar 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 14:10-11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I prefer to believe what Jesus said than Edward Fudge. If you got the nonsense above from
ol Edward, then I prefer not to read what he says. He may be on his way to the lake of fire
and I prefer not to follow him. Why do people accept Jesus, then try to re-write theology for
Him?

Now, *IF* hell and torment isn't forever, and people are let out, then satan is let out too.
Then, were are back where we started with sin, corruption etc. The Lord is going to
put a stop to all this and they aren't getting out. People who want to preach that the lake
of fire isn't real, is most likely, on their way there, unless they repent.
Click to expand...

Wow Trax,

Who is it that you can't forgive, or feel completely avenged, less they suffer Eternal Torment?

Remember we were All sinners before God's Grace came into our Lives, you did not choose Him,
He chose you. If anything we should be humbled, If we who say we know Him, can't do anything without Him, how much more does this apply to those who are without?

I guess you never read about David's Deliverance from Hell, or Jonah's ha?
Hell has a purpose, and so does The lake of Fire, but Hell is not Eternal neither is it the Lake of Fire, for it is consumed when it is cast into The Lake also.

Find out what The Fire Burns with.
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#19
#19
Avinu said:
Shalom, I am curious how you feel comfortable dismissing the scriptures that clearly state, mainly in Rev. about eternal torment. One being those who take the mark and worship the image of the beast, will suffer in fire & brimstone, Rev. 14:9-11, as well as Rev. 20:11-15. Where is your evidence that these things are not what they clearly state? Are you a Jehovah's witness?
And you're incorrect concerning about no teachings in OT about hell, it is called she'ol. Also what do you mean when you say, "hell is a condition of being under God's wrath." What do you mean by this?

H7585
שׁאל שׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

There are many verses in the OT that speak of she'ol which is the hebrew word for hell.
What you claim is those who die in there sin perish and exist no more, then they win either way, and have no loss. Because if they go to heaven they win, if they die in their sin and cease to exist, then they win because there is no punishment. If they cease to exist, then they don't know that they didn't enter into heaven, therefore they have no loss. Which would make Yeshua dying on the cross for nothing. What it boils down to is the Bible disagrees with what you claim, neither does it even remotely support what you say. The problem is you're encouraging people to read some man's book instead of encouraging them to study YHVH's word, and let the Ruach Hakadesh(Holy Spirit) reveal the truth to them. Shalom

Sheol is what the english translators translate as hell. It means nothing more than the abode of the dead or the grave. Take for example Psalm 6:5 "For in death there is no remebrance of you; in Sheol who will give you praise?
And I don't think anyone will get away with anything. In Luke 12:47-48 "And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his wil, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating." In teaching the Biblical teaching of conditional immortality, there is room in the destruction process for punishment. I don't know how long and in what manner the punishment and destruction process will last, but it will be terrible for anyone that faces it. Words can't describe it. Just because it won't go on forever doesn't take away from the awfulness of it. In fact, the true horror for the lost will be their knowledge that they will miss out on eternal bliss in heaven with the Lord and His people.
I am not a Jehova's witness. I fully believe in the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is clearly taught in the Bible.
If you read all through Paul's epistles, He never mentions anyone being consciously tormentented forever. He always uses words like death, destuction, etc. The problem with the teaching of never ending, conscious torment, is that all the words in the rest of the Bible that speak of death, destruction, perishing, etc. lose their meaning. Death really doesn't mean death, destruction doesn't really mean destruction and perish doesn't mean perish. When we filter the many verses through the few, we get off track. I do agree that the two verses in Revelation are hard to reconcile with all of the many verses that teach the final destruction of the wicked. But the rule should be to follow the many rather than the few.
I will try to get together more Bible verses for you to consider.
God bless!!!!

Tom
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T

Tombo

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#20
#20
Isn't it curious that Jesus always contrasts eternal life with death or perishing? Even in one of the most quoted verses in the Bible; John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him should NOT PERISH but have ETERNAL LIFE. If no one ever dies, the lost or the saved, this contrast again would make no sense.
Again in John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them ETERNAL LIFE and they shall NEVER PERISH,..... Again, the contrast between eternal life and perishing. Jesus could have easily said that anyone that believes in me will come to heaven with me, and whoever doesn't believe will go to a place of hell forever. But he never does this. His contrast is alway between eternal life and death.
John 17:1-2 "When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father the hour has come; glorify your son that the son may glorify you, since you have givien him authority over all flesh, TO GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO ALL WHOM YOU HAVE GIVEN HIM. Again, if all have eternal life anyway, this verse would make no sense.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is DEATH, but the free gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord. Again the contrast between life and death.
I can go on, but I'm afraid it would take up too much space!!!! I encourage everyone to at least restudy their position on this matter, to go through all of the relevant verses and prayerfully consider them. I don't want anyone to take my word for it, or to think I based my conclusions on a man's book. Everyone must settle all issues of doctrine in their own mind through the study of the scriptures, and not take anyone's word as truth if they can't prove it from the Bible.
I will just leave with one more Bible reference. 1st John 2:24-25 " Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He made to us- ETERNAL LIFE." Again, if everyone is given eternal life to live one place or another, this verse makes no sense.
I only ask everyone here to consider this position as a possibility and check it out fully for themselves. I am convinced of it after much study. If you hold a different position based on your careful study of the Bible, then don't leave it. All things must be of faith and settled in our own mind.
God bless, my friends!!!!

Tom
 
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