Misunderstanding of Hell

2knowhim · Mar 4, 2012

hell fire = the gehenna of fire, from Hebrew. gey Hinnom = the valley of Hinnom, profaned by the fires of Moloch worship (2Ch_33:6), and defiled by Hezekiah. Also called "Tophet", Isa_30:33. Here the refuse of Jerusalem was continually being burnt up by the perpetual fires (compare Jer_7:31-33. 2Ki_23:10. Mar_9:48. Isa_66:24). See App-131.

I. Gehenna . Gr. geenna . This is the transliteration of the Heb. Gai' Hinnom , i.e. the Valley of Hinnom or "the Valley" of [the sons of] Hinnom, where were the fires through which children were passed in the worship of Moloch.

Yet Christians today teach that God will do this thing, which He calls an Abomination.

Jer 32:34 But they set their abominations in the house, upon which My name is called, to defile it.
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it intoMy mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

And let's not forget:

Luk 9:54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, desire Thou that we should call down fire to come down from the heaven, and consume them, as Elijah also did ?
Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to a different village.

Elizabeth619 · Mar 4, 2012

Tombo said:

I am struck by the contrast contrast that Jesus makes in the Bible between eternal life and death. Take for example John 10:27-28 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish,.....
Even the very popular verse in the Bible, John 3:16, is striking in it's contrast between eternal life and perishing. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life".
If humans have eternal life no matter what, why does Jesus constantly gives this contrast??? He could have easily said, if you believe on me I will let you live forever with me, but if you don't believe on me, you will live forever in a place of torment. But He never says this. The Church, down through the centuries, has always filtered all of these scores of verses through a few verses in Revelation instead of the other way around. God says in Ezekiel 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn and live."
By following the traditional teaching of eternal torment in hell, all of these words lose their meaning. Death doesn't really mean death, perish doesn't really mean perish, destroy doesn't really mean destroy, etc.
As I've said in previous posts in this thread, if people would carefully go over all of the verese that pertain to this question, they will be struck by the contrast between life and death.
I hope I've helped show some of the evidence that brings me to my conclusions.
God bless!!!!

Tom

This topic is confusing to me. I will admit. I will continue to study more on this.

Tombo · Mar 4, 2012

It was confusing to me for some time also. It was always that one verse that got me where Jesus said that the servant who knew his master's will and didn't do it would be beaten with many stripes, but the one who didn't know would be beaten with few. People would tell me that verse taught degrees of hell. I would always have to answer: Whether you're beaten with many or few stripes, what difference would it make if it went on eternally??? It was that question that led me on the search that landed on conditional immortality. That just simply means that only those whom Jesus gives eternal life to will live forever. I am convinced of this teaching in the Bible. Some people think I'm just trying to avoid facing the truth of what the unsaved will endure, but nothing can be farther from the truth. I too once held to the traditional teaching of hell, so I know where they're coming from. In fact, I can remember quite a few years back when I heard that the English Theologian, John R.W. Stott, took a position of being agnostic on the question. I was so outraged that he would even consder that the unsaved would be ultimatley destroyed that I threw away all of his books that I had!!!! I know full well the feelings some people can have to this question since I was there myself.
You can go over this thread and see other references I've made and links to websites.
God bless!!!!

Tom

GreenNnice · Mar 5, 2012

Tombo said:

Again, and, I just speak this quote, Dear Lord...Amen, Spirit-led (that's not taking His name in vain is it?) because I want some context for myself and offer my perspective through 'it' for others

What does it REALLY matter if someone wants to ignore 'eternal punishment' as worded in the bible vs. the not eternal death, but sudden death way of looking at it, or, in other words, looking at it the non-church way of looking at it?

It doesn't. The ANSWER to this question does NOT bring or take away Salvation. It just doesn't. Does it?

Pros , cons . (Elizzy, I like your 'torment' and 'torture' insight on definitions, milady

)

Fine. Weigh them. And, make the bible YOUR gospel of convenience for this. So what !

Like Bill Murray was talking to the camp kids in movie 'meatballs,' who were scared of taking on the other camps' kids and Murray says in a motivational way the night before the competition begins, a speech with the words central to the speech: 'It just doesn't matter.'

Then, the kids, who listen and then begin to follow Murray's words, chanting: 'It just doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter....''

Faster and faster,the camp kids saying Murray's thematic sentence, until it's uproarious in the camp's lounge room the night before the camp vs camp competition events are to begin.

)_(

Folks, so WHAT am I saying to all of you. And, I have nothing at all against Tombo's argument, I don't think it's right because my understanding of scripture is not all literal based but a lot of it is (gospel of convenience?) . I prefer to be afraid of God, as He says in scriptures many times we are fear Him. Now, I don't know what this says to you but I fear what can happen to me on Earth as well as my life after Earth (when I die). I do not want to chance death being 'eternal punishment,' as Matthew says or 'torment' smoke as Revelations 14 puts it aptly. I just don't want to take a chance of being a wisp of smoke that is in mental anguish the rest of my life. And, to say that God is not that kind of God...I think He is. Kind of like a little kid who is warned, and, still does the wrong thing, they are indeed punished. Their actions cause results. That is on a little scale, but 'eternity?' That is on a grand scale and I prefer to keep it grand in my own mind but I will NOT judge others. I refuse and I see Tombo's zeal in his belief and that is that . It is finished for me explaining my side here, that is, unless the Lord leads me to say something else, the Spirit always takes precedence over my fleshly thinking, LOL.

God bless

Anyway, the bottom line: don't worry about it, and, definitely, do not judge others because.........

it just doesn't matter .

Laodicea · Mar 5, 2012

Tombo said:

It was confusing to me for some time also. It was always that one verse that got me where Jesus said that the servant who knew his master's will and didn't do it would be beaten with many stripes, but the one who didn't know would be beaten with few. People would tell me that verse taught degrees of hell. I would always have to answer: Whether you're beaten with many or few stripes, what difference would it make if it went on eternally??? It was that question that led me on the search that landed on conditional immortality. That just simply means that only those whom Jesus gives eternal life to will live forever. I am convinced of this teaching in the Bible. Some people think I'm just trying to avoid facing the truth of what the unsaved will endure, but nothing can be farther from the truth. I too once held to the traditional teaching of hell, so I know where they're coming from. In fact, I can remember quite a few years back when I heard that the English Theologian, John R.W. Stott, took a position of being agnostic on the question. I was so outraged that he would even consder that the unsaved would be ultimatley destroyed that I threw away all of his books that I had!!!! I know full well the feelings some people can have to this question since I was there myself.
You can go over this thread and see other references I've made and links to websites.
God bless!!!!

Tom

Yes the punishment is eternal But, not the punishing. Everyone will recieve eternal life or eternal death.

2knowhim · Mar 5, 2012

Laodicea said:

There is no such thing as Eternal Life or Eternal death in scripture.

Red33 · Mar 5, 2012

2knowhim said:

What makes you say such a thing?

Laodicea · Mar 5, 2012

2knowhim said:

Have you read Romans 6:23?

Tombo · Mar 5, 2012

Laodicea said:

Exactly!!!!
God bless.

Tom

Elizabeth619 · Mar 5, 2012

2knowhim said:

What bible are you reading from? Check and see if you have missing page numbers.

Avinu · Mar 5, 2012

that's funny. What's happening Liz, how's thing going?

2knowhim · Mar 5, 2012

Elizabeth619 said:

No their all there, last time I checked.

2knowhim · Mar 5, 2012

Laodicea said:

You mean this one:

KJV..Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

CLV..Rom 6:23 For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord."

YLV..Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

LITV..Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

C. Aionios , of or belonging to an age, occurs 71 times, and is rendered :--
i. "eternal" in Mat_19:16; Mat_25:46. Mar_3:29; Mar_10:17; Mar_10:30. Luk_10:25; Luk_18:18. Joh_3:15; Joh_4:36; Joh_5:39; Joh_6:54; Joh_6:68; Joh_10:28; Joh_12:25; Joh_17:2-3. Act_13:48. Rom_2:7; Rom_5:21; Rom_6:23. 2Co_4:17-18; 2Co_5:1. 1Ti_6:12; 1Ti_6:19. 2Ti_2:10. Tit_1:2; Tit_3:7. Heb_5:9; Heb_6:2; Heb_9:12; Heb_9:14-15. 1Pe_5:10. 1Jn_1:2; 1Jn_2:25; 1Jn_3:15; 1Jn_5:11; 1Jn_5:13; 1Jn_5:20. Jud_1:21.
ii. "everlasting" in Mat_18:8; Mat_19:29; Mat_25:41; Mat_25:46. Luk_16:9; Luk_18:30. Joh_3:16; Joh_3:36; Joh_4:14; Joh_5:24; Joh_6:27; Joh_6:40; Joh_6:47; Joh_12:50. Act_13:46. Rom_6:22; Rom_16:26. Gal_6:8. 2Th_1:9; 2Th_2:16. 1Ti_1:16; 1Ti_1:1 Tit_6:16. Heb_13:20. 2Pe_1:11. Rev_14:6.
iii. "for ever" in Phm_1:15.
iv. "Before or since the world began", in the phrases, chronois , aioniois , or pro chronon aionion , (in, or before age-times), strangely rendered in the R.V. "through, or before times eternal", in Rom_16:25. 2Ti_1:9. Tit_1:2.

2knowhim · Mar 5, 2012

Red33 said:

See post above, because I've studied the words out in their original languages.

Olam, aion, aionios..etc.

which are rendered in English as, for ever, world, everlasting, eternal, world without end, of old,
forevermore, etc.

Laodicea · Mar 5, 2012

2knowhim said:

You mean this one:

KJV..Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

CLV..Rom 6:23 For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord."

YLV..Rom 6:23 for the wages of the sin is death, and the gift of God is life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

LITV..Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

C. Aionios , of or belonging to an age, occurs 71 times, and is rendered :--
i. "eternal" in Mat_19:16; Mat_25:46. Mar_3:29; Mar_10:17; Mar_10:30. Luk_10:25; Luk_18:18. Joh_3:15; Joh_4:36; Joh_5:39; Joh_6:54; Joh_6:68; Joh_10:28; Joh_12:25; Joh_17:2-3. Act_13:48. Rom_2:7; Rom_5:21; Rom_6:23. 2Co_4:17-18; 2Co_5:1. 1Ti_6:12; 1Ti_6:19. 2Ti_2:10. Tit_1:2; Tit_3:7. Heb_5:9; Heb_6:2; Heb_9:12; Heb_9:14-15. 1Pe_5:10. 1Jn_1:2; 1Jn_2:25; 1Jn_3:15; 1Jn_5:11; 1Jn_5:13; 1Jn_5:20. Jud_1:21.
ii. "everlasting" in Mat_18:8; Mat_19:29; Mat_25:41; Mat_25:46. Luk_16:9; Luk_18:30. Joh_3:16; Joh_3:36; Joh_4:14; Joh_5:24; Joh_6:27; Joh_6:40; Joh_6:47; Joh_12:50. Act_13:46. Rom_6:22; Rom_16:26. Gal_6:8. 2Th_1:9; 2Th_2:16. 1Ti_1:16; 1Ti_1:1 Tit_6:16. Heb_13:20. 2Pe_1:11. Rev_14:6.
iii. "for ever" in Phm_1:15.
iv. "Before or since the world began", in the phrases, chronois , aioniois , or pro chronon aionion , (in, or before age-times), strangely rendered in the R.V. "through, or before times eternal", in Rom_16:25. 2Ti_1:9. Tit_1:2.

Your list is good, but those who recieve Christ recieve eternal life because Christ has eternal life those who do not recieve Him do not recieve eternal life. Also we are to recieve the gift of God (Christ) daily

Elizabeth619 · Mar 5, 2012

Avinu said:

I am searching through the forums and on my best beavhior!!!

enochson · Mar 5, 2012

Tombo said:

The Bible in no way teaches universal salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28 "And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgement, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him."
Death will come and then the judgment. The unsaved will be punished and destoyed and the saved will go into the everlasting arms of the Lord in heaven!!!!
To say that all people will be saved really makes a mockery out of what Jesus did on the cross. It makes it totally useless and unnecessary. Only God's elect in Christ will inherit eternal life. Salvation is a free gift of God in Christ. Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given among men BY WHICH WE MUST BE SAVED." How can you say that God will save people after death??? He only provided one way; The Lord Jesus Christ!!!!
I know it is for your love for mankind that you are holding to this false teaching, but you really need to let go of it. The Bible does not support it in any way. And if you look beyond the Bible, you are lost for sure.
God bless!!!!

Tom

I'm sorry but who's sin and judgement did christ take and cover with His blood. If you don't say the whole of ceation you don't understand the point of His being at all and are totally self center.

Tombo · Mar 6, 2012

enochson said:

Hi enochson,
The Bible is clear that Jesus came to save those who were given to Him by the Father. It no where teaches that He came to sufffer and die for all people, or in the "hope" that some would beilive on Him. He knew exactly who He came to save.
"All that the Father gives me will come to me....." John 6:37. "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME unless it is granted him by the Father, John 6:65. Jesus' death had a definite goal of saving those who were chosen from before the foundation of the world.
Read Romans chapter 9 very carefully. Take Rom. 9:14-16 for example, "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." So then it depends NOT ON HUMAN WILL OR EXERTION, BUT ON GOD WHO HAS MERCY.
Romans 9:19-24 really speaks to the objections people have of God limiting His love to His chosen/elect.
"You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will? But who are you, oh man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to it's molder, "why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the gentiles?
There are many more verses, but these are sufficient for now. And I'm getting off the topic for which I started this thread. Maybe another should be started on the question of the saved and unsaved? I'm sure it must have been asked many times on here.
God bless, my friend.

Tom

GreenNnice · Mar 6, 2012

enochson said:

-----
Here are some verses that spake of Hell being a very real place (not 'condition,' that is, unless you áre left to be in a horrifying condition).

---
This 1st reference for my understanding what Hell is, and, it is a 'where,' and, whether it is a 'where' of a literal place , or if 'it' is a figurative place you lie and live forever in torment after you die and leave your human body, it is really some 'where' that your soul goes.......to spatially, age-during exist, forevermore.

2 Peter 2:4 ~ For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness (a place of 'where') , to be reserved (definitely, those angels are alive in this place of darkness) for judgment.

Now, from this verse, these angels who sinned against God are, as I speak, and 1000s years before now, in the darkness, chained.

This verse explains more of God's utter judgment on mankind....

Tombo4Christ, remember, too, that God was unkind, devastatingly so, to the sexual misdoers and pleasure feelers/livers , which caused The Great Flood. That wiped out ALL mankind but Noah, his family, and, two of every kind of animal....

You seem to think that God is too nice, too much made of Love to ever bring horrible judgment and death (alive in body, but in a casket of hell, so to speak) on the ones that sin and continue despite God's voice for them to hear, which they (unjust folks, and, notice , I didn't say 'sinners') turn a deaf ear because God did speak to Noah in Gen. 6:13, so one can see God surely pleaded with man to turn from their wickedness and thoughts that were not of God. Right?

But is God really too nice, too Loving to send the unjust to eternal torment?.... More verses, we go to 2 Peter 2:9 , which after talking about God having no mercy on the sinning angels, nor, Noah time wickedness of men, and, Sodom and Gomorrah cities annihilated for those cities lawlessness, it says this regarding the power and the capability of God.....

2 Peter 2:9 ~ Then the Lord(who can destroy sinning angels, Noah time unjust, etc) knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.

So, this 2P 2:9 verse tells that there is a suspended state for the unjust. Right?

Ok, then since this is going so well here, and, you're getting scareder and scareder of what hell really is or 'where', rather , Tombo4Christ, let's just mount the evidence from this same book and chapter with....

We are still speaking of what will happen to the unjust in this next verse.

2 Peter 2:17 ~ These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved (there's that 'there' spatial real place word again) the blackness of darkness forever.

Tombo · Mar 6, 2012

The Rich Man, Lazarus, & the Afterlife

Here is a very compelling exposition of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke16.
You can read it or click on the audio symbol at the top left of the page to listen to it.
I, personally, found it helpful to listen and read along to get the most out of it.
God bless!!!!

Tom

Misunderstanding of Hell

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