Misunderstanding of Hell

[Tombo]

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Here are some verses that spake of Hell being a very real place (not 'condition,' that is, unless you áre left to be in a horrifying condition).

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This 1st reference for my understanding what Hell is, and, it is a 'where,' and, whether it is a 'where' of a literal place , or if 'it' is a figurative place you lie and live forever in torment after you die and leave your human body, it is really some 'where' that your soul goes.......to spatially, age-during exist, forevermore.


2 Peter 2:4 ~ For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness (a place of 'where') , to be reserved (definitely, those angels are alive in this place of darkness) for judgment.


Now, from this verse, these angels who sinned against God are, as I speak, and 1000s years before now, in the darkness, chained.


This verse explains more of God's utter judgment on mankind....

Tombo4Christ, remember, too, that God was unkind, devastatingly so, to the sexual misdoers and pleasure feelers/livers , which caused The Great Flood. That wiped out ALL mankind but Noah, his family, and, two of every kind of animal....

You seem to think that God is too nice, too much made of Love to ever bring horrible judgment and death (alive in body, but in a casket of hell, so to speak) on the ones that sin and continue despite God's voice for them to hear, which they (unjust folks, and, notice , I didn't say 'sinners') turn a deaf ear because God did speak to Noah in Gen. 6:13, so one can see God surely pleaded with man to turn from their wickedness and thoughts that were not of God. Right?

But is God really too nice, too Loving to send the unjust to eternal torment?.... More verses, we go to 2 Peter 2:9 , which after talking about God having no mercy on the sinning angels, nor, Noah time wickedness of men, and, Sodom and Gomorrah cities annihilated for those cities lawlessness, it says this regarding the power and the capability of God.....

2 Peter 2:9 ~ Then the Lord(who can destroy sinning angels, Noah time unjust, etc) knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.

So, this 2P 2:9 verse tells that there is a suspended state for the unjust. Right?


Ok, then since this is going so well here, and, you're getting scareder and scareder of what hell really is or 'where', rather , Tombo4Christ, let's just mount the evidence from this same book and chapter with....

We are still speaking of what will happen to the unjust in this next verse.

2 Peter 2:17 ~ These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved (there's that 'there' spatial real place word again) the blackness of darkness forever.

''

Hi GreenNnice,
Thanks for the input, it is appreciated. I would just like to point out a couple of things in the verses you've listed:
1. It says that the lost angels are being held for a certain event; judgment. I hold that that judgment will result in their total destruction.
2. The 2 Peter 2:17 verse is again speaking of utter destruction. The blackness of darkness. It's curious how some people hold that the lost will be in fire and darkness. With the presence of fire, darkness could not exist. They are both simply speaking of God as a consuming fire and a destroyer of the ungodly.

My stance on this subject is based on study of the relevant verses of the Bible. It's not simply that I think God is too this or too that. Although I do believe, given the teaching all through the Bible of God's love and mercy and justcie, that it is a terrible teaching to say that God will forever torment anyone. God even warned the people of Israel not to overdue their punishment of the guilty. See Deut.25:1-3
"If there is a dispute between men and they come into court and the judges decide between them, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty, then if the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall cause him to lie down and be beaten in his presence with a number of stripes in proportion to his offence. Forty stripes may be given him, but not more, lest, if one should go on to beat him with more stripes than these, your brother be degraded in your sight."
Do you think that God would give these instructions to man (to not overly punish someone) and then do it Himself??? If God was concerned that man on earth not be punished beyond what he deserved, He surely won't torture someone everlastingly in eternity.
God bless, my friend.

Tom

 

[2knowhim]

''

Hi GreenNnice,
Thanks for the input, it is appreciated. I would just like to point out a couple of things in the verses you've listed:
1. It says that the lost angels are being held for a certain event; judgment. I hold that that judgment will result in their total destruction.
2. The 2 Peter 2:17 verse is again speaking of utter destruction. The blackness of darkness. It's curious how some people hold that the lost will be in fire and darkness. With the presence of fire, darkness could not exist. They are both simply speaking of God as a consuming fire and a destroyer of the ungodly.

My stance on this subject is based on study of the relevant verses of the Bible. It's not simply that I think God is too this or too that. Although I do believe, given the teaching all through the Bible of God's love and mercy and justcie, that it is a terrible teaching to say that God will forever torment anyone. God even warned the people of Israel not to overdue their punishment of the guilty. See Deut.25:1-3
"If there is a dispute between men and they come into court and the judges decide between them, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty, then if the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall cause him to lie down and be beaten in his presence with a number of stripes in proportion to his offence. Forty stripes may be given him, but not more, lest, if one should go on to beat him with more stripes than these, your brother be degraded in your sight."
Do you think that God would give these instructions to man (to not overly punish someone) and then do it Himself??? If God was concerned that man on earth not be punished beyond what he deserved, He surely won't torture someone everlastingly in eternity.
God bless, my friend.

Tom

Then why don't you believe this too:

Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.


Do you think God would give these instructions to man and then not do it Himself?

 

[Tombo]

Then why don't you believe this too:

Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.


Do you think God would give these instructions to man and then not do it Himself?

God has the right to judge and destroy sinners. He is a holy God and isn't required to show mercy to anyone. My point is is that God will not, and the Bible doesn't teach, that God will forever torture anyone.To keep holding to the teaching of universal salvation makes a shambles of the Bible. Please read Romans chapter 9 carefully. It's simply not taught.
I gave you verse after verse about God having mercy on whom He wills, and that only those given to Jesus by the Father will come to Him. Why do you think we are urged to send out the offer of salvation to believe on the Lord Jesus or perish??? As I've said before, if all will ultimately be saved, the message of reconcilliation through the Lord Jesus Christ is vain and useless.
If people aren't saved by the Lord Jesus Christ in this life, the Bible no where says they will have a second chnace in the next. In fact, it teaches the contrary.
In fact, it's a curious thing that universalism came into being because some people couldn't swallow the teaching of the everlasting punishment of the wicked. If we follow the Biblical teaching that God will save whom He wills to save and punishes and destroys those who are lost, then we need not cling to universalism.
Some peole accuse my position of being too light on sin and the punishment God requires. They seem to think that if a person isn't consciously aware throughout eternity of their loss, then it isn't really punishment. I beg to differ. Even in this life when a person commits a capital crime and receives the death penalty, the act of putting that person to death (which only takes minutes) isn't considered the ultimate punishment. The real punishment is that that person has been removed from among the living. He will never enjoy any of the good things of this life again. It is the same in eternity. The unsaved will lose the gift of eternal life and all of the glory and wonder in heaven. They will face judgment and be acutley aware that they will suffer this unimaginable loss. As i've said, I don't know in what manner or for how long this last judgment will last before the lost are destroyed, but it won't go on forever. But that is no consolation. Just like it's no consolation to a condemned person, going to the death chamber, if someone tells them not to worry it will be over in a moment. They are fearful beyond belief because IT WILL all be over. They will never see this world or their loved ones again.
God forbid that any of us face that in the world to come. May we all flee to the Lord Jesus for salvation from that day, and forever live with Him in eternal bliss!!!!
God bless, my friends.

Tom

 

[2knowhim]

God has the right to judge and destroy sinners. He is a holy God and isn't required to show mercy to anyone. My point is is that God will not, and the Bible doesn't teach, that God will forever torture anyone.To keep holding to the teaching of universal salvation makes a shambles of the Bible. Please read Romans chapter 9 carefully. It's simply not taught.
I gave you verse after verse about God having mercy on whom He wills, and that only those given to Jesus by the Father will come to Him. Why do you think we are urged to send out the offer of salvation to believe on the Lord Jesus or perish??? As I've said before, if all will ultimately be saved, the message of reconcilliation through the Lord Jesus Christ is vain and useless.
If people aren't saved by the Lord Jesus Christ in this life, the Bible no where says they will have a second chnace in the next. In fact, it teaches the contrary.
In fact, it's a curious thing that universalism came into being because some people couldn't swallow the teaching of the everlasting punishment of the wicked. If we follow the Biblical teaching that God will save whom He wills to save and punishes and destroys those who are lost, then we need not cling to universalism.
Some peole accuse my position of being too light on sin and the punishment God requires. They seem to think that if a person isn't consciously aware throughout eternity of their loss, then it isn't really punishment. I beg to differ. Even in this life when a person commits a capital crime and receives the death penalty, the act of putting that person to death (which only takes minutes) isn't considered the ultimate punishment. The real punishment is that that person has been removed from among the living. He will never enjoy any of the good things of this life again. It is the same in eternity. The unsaved will lose the gift of eternal life and all of the glory and wonder in heaven. They will face judgment and be acutley aware that they will suffer this unimaginable loss. As i've said, I don't know in what manner or for how long this last judgment will last before the lost are destroyed, but it won't go on forever. But that is no consolation. Just like it's no consolation to a condemned person, going to the death chamber, if someone tells them not to worry it will be over in a moment. They are fearful beyond belief because IT WILL all be over. They will never see this world or their loved ones again.
God forbid that any of us face that in the world to come. May we all flee to the Lord Jesus for salvation from that day, and forever live with Him in eternal bliss!!!!
God bless, my friends.

Tom

First of all let me say, I have to commend you on the way you just slid right over what I posted and went in to talking about what the fate of the sinner is.

Secondly we do agree that Eternal Torment is not the nature of God.

But, To punish someone and then destroy completely is absolutely absurd.
What good purpose would that accomplish. It makes no sense, why not just destroy right away?
I mean, they surely are not going to remember any punishment if they don't exist.

So really what it comes down to is your views of God's Judgments have only to torment, and then ultimately destroy. What twisted thinking is that.

Now, if I say that God's Judgments on the unsaved or the wicked has torments, but ultimately changes that person and leads them to repentance, then Judgment has Great purpose and Great Glory to God.

And I don't know where you get that the unsaved have Eternal Life, and then it will be taken away.
That is not in scripture, in fact it says:

1Jn 3:14 We are aware that we have proceeded out of death into life, for we are loving our brethren. He who is not loving is remaining in death."
1Jn 3:15 Everyone who is hating his brother is a man-killer, and you are aware that no man-killer at all has life eonian remaining in him."

eonian life is Present in every age, and so is death.

Christ took death into His Death, and that must be made manifest for all eventually.
Because sin and death passed upon All men. But we are told what that death is.....it is the Carnal mind,
it's also the Enemy of God.

 

[Tombo]

First of all let me say, I have to commend you on the way you just slid right over what I posted and went in to talking about what the fate of the sinner is.

Secondly we do agree that Eternal Torment is not the nature of God.

But, To punish someone and then destroy completely is absolutely absurd.
What good purpose would that accomplish. It makes no sense, why not just destroy right away?
I mean, they surely are not going to remember any punishment if they don't exist.

So really what it comes down to is your views of God's Judgments have only to torment, and then ultimately destroy. What twisted thinking is that.

Now, if I say that God's Judgments on the unsaved or the wicked has torments, but ultimately changes that person and leads them to repentance, then Judgment has Great purpose and Great Glory to God.

And I don't know where you get that the unsaved have Eternal Life, and then it will be taken away.
That is not in scripture, in fact it says:

1Jn 3:14 We are aware that we have proceeded out of death into life, for we are loving our brethren. He who is not loving is remaining in death."
1Jn 3:15 Everyone who is hating his brother is a man-killer, and you are aware that no man-killer at all has life eonian remaining in him."

eonian life is Present in every age, and so is death.

Christ took death into His Death, and that must be made manifest for all eventually.
Because sin and death passed upon All men. But we are told what that death is.....it is the Carnal mind,
it's also the Enemy of God.

I never said the unsaved have eteranl life and then it's taken away from them. And I also said I don't know how the end of the wicked will exactly work out. I don't know if the punishment is tied up in the destruction or if it will be of any duration. I just said that the wicked will be punished and destroyed in a comprehensive way, taking the whole thing together. Jesus did mention about some being beaten with many and some with few stripes. And the Bible does say that each one will receive for whatever he did in the body, whether good or evil.
And I still must say that what you are holding to is not in the Bible. The Bible no where says that there is any other way to eternal life except through the Lord Jesus. And I say again, if there were any other way to be saved other than through the Lord Jesus Christ, then the Lord's death was in vain.
Remember Acts 4:12 'And there is salvation in no onle else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Jesus is the one and only way to the Father. This is not my idea, it is taught in God's word. It doesn't matter what we think, but what does God's word say. And God's word does not support universal salvation in any way.
God bless, my friend!!!!

Tom

 

[2knowhim]

I never said the unsaved have eteranl life and then it's taken away from them. And I also said I don't know how the end of the wicked will exactly work out. I don't know if the punishment is tied up in the destruction or if it will be of any duration. I just said that the wicked will be punished and destroyed in a comprehensive way, taking the whole thing together. Jesus did mention about some being beaten with many and some with few stripes. And the Bible does say that each one will receive for whatever he did in the body, whether good or evil.
And I still must say that what you are holding to is not in the Bible. The Bible no where says that there is any other way to eternal life except through the Lord Jesus. And I say again, if there were any other way to be saved other than through the Lord Jesus Christ, then the Lord's death was in vain.
Remember Acts 4:12 'And there is salvation in no onle else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." Jesus is the one and only way to the Father. This is not my idea, it is taught in God's word. It doesn't matter what we think, but what does God's word say. And God's word does not support universal salvation in any way.
God bless, my friend!!!!

Tom

I apologize I misunderstood your statement ....The unsaved will lose the gift of eternal life and all of the glory and wonder in heaven.

And let me say, There is NO other Way except through Him.
But who is He? He is The Way, The Truth, and The Life.

Or, You could say, that He is The Truth.. that Leads The Way.. to Life, He is The Living Word.
And that will never pass away, but is Eternal.

You say that no where in the bible is Universal Reconciliation taught.


1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1Co 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

1Co 15:24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."

Php 2:9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
Php 2:11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father."

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-Be blessing and honor and glory and might For the eons of the eons!"


Those are just a few.

Blessings

 

[dmdave17]

I guess I'm sort of a lieralist. And I certainly am not a biblical scholar. But I have trouble not believing in hell as a place when Jesus mentioned it close to a dozen times during His ministry. He threw it out almost casually, as though everyone knew it existed. A couple of examples.

"...And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22) Usually, you find fire in a "place", not an existence.

" And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell." (Mark 9:45) Again, someone usually gets "thrown into" a place.

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell." (Luke 12:5) Ditto.

It is unclear whether the "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation is hell, but I have no trouble in seeing it (hell) as the eternal resting place of souls that have not been saved by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

 

[Tombo]

I apologize I misunderstood your statement ....The unsaved will lose the gift of eternal life and all of the glory and wonder in heaven.

And let me say, There is NO other Way except through Him.
But who is He? He is The Way, The Truth, and The Life.

Or, You could say, that He is The Truth.. that Leads The Way.. to Life, He is The Living Word.
And that will never pass away, but is Eternal.

You say that no where in the bible is Universal Reconciliation taught.


1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1Co 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

1Co 15:24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."

Php 2:9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
Php 2:11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father."

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-Be blessing and honor and glory and might For the eons of the eons!"


Those are just a few.

Blessings

You are making the mistake of assuming that the "all" in those verses mean every human being. God saves people everyday from death and disease and a host of other things. But that doesn't mean that those people are His elect and saved. Why does that verse in 1st Tim. 4:10 say" especially of those who believe"??? I see you didn't undeline that portion. If everyone will ultimately be saved, why is that line there? The first part is speaking of God being gracious in saving people from troubles and even physical death in this world, the second is speaking of the elect in the world to come. It's the same as when the Bible says that God causes His sun to rise on the just and the unjust, and sends his rain on the evil as well as the good.

You are making the same error in 1st Cor. 15:22. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." Who are the all??? Read on in 15:23 "But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at His coming THOSE WHO BELONG TO CHRIST. It's clear that the all in the first half is the whole world, but not the second.
I could go on but I think you will hold to the universal salvation teaching no matter how many verses I give, or how much I show it goes against logic. It is not a biblical teaching. It makes a mockery of the gospel of salvation through Christ alone. It would not even make sense to preach the gospel to anyone if they will all be saved anyway.
In John 3:16 " For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him (and we know from other verses in John that only those whom the Father gives to Jesus will believe in Him) should not perish but have eternal life. That verse is crystal clear that those who don't believe will perish. What does perish mean to you??? It's the same with people who want to hold to the teaching of conscious, everlasting torment, in a place called hell; Words have no meaning. Perish doesn't mean perish, destroyed doesn't mean destroyed, etc.
I'm sorry, but your position is not Biblical.
God bless, my friend.

Tom

 

[Tombo]

I guess I'm sort of a lieralist. And I certainly am not a biblical scholar. But I have trouble not believing in hell as a place when Jesus mentioned it close to a dozen times during His ministry. He threw it out almost casually, as though everyone knew it existed. A couple of examples.

"...And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22) Usually, you find fire in a "place", not an existence.

" And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell." (Mark 9:45) Again, someone usually gets "thrown into" a place.

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell." (Luke 12:5) Ditto.

It is unclear whether the "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation is hell, but I have no trouble in seeing it (hell) as the eternal resting place of souls that have not been saved by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Hi dmdave17,
The word hell there is the word gehenna. It is taken from the old testament "valley of hinnom" where people used to sacrifice their children to the god molech. Even some of the people of Israel were guilty of that terrible atrocity. That valley became so loathsome in Israel that they used it as a trash dump where the fires were burning continually. They threw all of their refuse and waste there. Some say that even the dead bodies of criminals were thrown there. So when Jesus says he will cast into hell, he is using this word gehenna. It is an apt place to describe what will happen to the unsaved at the end of the world. They will be burned up.
If you read Matthew 10:28, it elaborates more on Luke 12:5. "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell/gehenna. Notice that this verse speaks of God destroying both body and soul. In other words, the entire person.
The other verses you mention use the same word, gehenna.
It would help you out to get a Young's Analytical or Strong's exhaustive concordance and look up all refernces to hell. It will show you what each word is that's translated hell.
I am by no means a scholar either, just a Christian searching God's word for truth. That's what I love about this website; I can share and help someone understand better, and others can share and help me understand better.
God bless, my friend.

Tom

 

[enochson]

''

Hi GreenNnice,
Thanks for the input, it is appreciated. I would just like to point out a couple of things in the verses you've listed:
1. It says that the lost angels are being held for a certain event; judgment. I hold that that judgment will result in their total destruction.
2. The 2 Peter 2:17 verse is again speaking of utter destruction. The blackness of darkness. It's curious how some people hold that the lost will be in fire and darkness. With the presence of fire, darkness could not exist. They are both simply speaking of God as a consuming fire and a destroyer of the ungodly.

My stance on this subject is based on study of the relevant verses of the Bible. It's not simply that I think God is too this or too that. Although I do believe, given the teaching all through the Bible of God's love and mercy and justcie, that it is a terrible teaching to say that God will forever torment anyone. God even warned the people of Israel not to overdue their punishment of the guilty. See Deut.25:1-3
"If there is a dispute between men and they come into court and the judges decide between them, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty, then if the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall cause him to lie down and be beaten in his presence with a number of stripes in proportion to his offence. Forty stripes may be given him, but not more, lest, if one should go on to beat him with more stripes than these, your brother be degraded in your sight."
Do you think that God would give these instructions to man (to not overly punish someone) and then do it Himself??? If God was concerned that man on earth not be punished beyond what he deserved, He surely won't torture someone everlastingly in eternity.
God bless, my friend.

Tom

Glory to god His beloved Son took are beating amen.

 

[enochson]

I apologize I misunderstood your statement ....The unsaved will lose the gift of eternal life and all of the glory and wonder in heaven.

And let me say, There is NO other Way except through Him.
But who is He? He is The Way, The Truth, and The Life.

Or, You could say, that He is The Truth.. that Leads The Way.. to Life, He is The Living Word.
And that will never pass away, but is Eternal.

You say that no where in the bible is Universal Reconciliation taught.


1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1Co 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

1Co 15:24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."

Php 2:9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
Php 2:11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father."

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and underneath the earth and on the sea, and all in them, I hear also saying, "To Him Who is sitting on the throne-To the Lambkin-Be blessing and honor and glory and might For the eons of the eons!"


Those are just a few.

Blessings

Just a tid bit. there where 3 doors in the temple of the jews the out side door way called the way, the enter door the life, and the one to the holy of hollies the life.

 

[2knowhim]

Just a tid bit. there where 3 doors in the temple of the jews the out side door way called the way, the enter door the life, and the one to the holy of hollies the life.

Yes, there are also 3 heavens too, and with each entering in, we are transformed into His image,
I like to refer to it as milk, meat, and manna.

And 3 ......1/3=1 whole.

And a 1/3 was burned up, and 1/3 was burned up, and 1/3 was burned up.

 

[enochson]

Yes, there are also 3 heavens too, and with each entering in, we are transformed into His image,
I like to refer to it as milk, meat, and manna.

And 3 ......1/3=1 whole.

And a 1/3 was burned up, and 1/3 was burned up, and 1/3 was burned up.

this is interesting I use to think the flesh was one heaven the soul another and the heart or spirit the thrid and it was a out to in thing but know I see it as a in to out thing and the thrid heven is when the in is totally on the outside just and idea.

 

[GreenNnice]

-----
Here are some verses that spake of Hell being a very real place (not 'condition,' that is, unless you áre left to be in a horrifying condition).

---
This 1st reference for my understanding what Hell is, and, it is a 'where,' and, whether it is a 'where' of a literal place , or if 'it' is a figurative place you lie and live forever in torment after you die and leave your human body, it is really some 'where' that your soul goes.......to spatially, age-during exist, forevermore.


2 Peter 2:4 ~ For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness (a place of 'where') , to be reserved (definitely, those angels are alive in this place of darkness) for judgment.


Now, from this verse, these angels who sinned against God are, as I speak, and 1000s years before now, in the darkness, chained.


This verse explains more of God's utter judgment on mankind....

Tombo4Christ, remember, too, that God was unkind, devastatingly so, to the sexual misdoers and pleasure feelers/livers , which caused The Great Flood. That wiped out ALL mankind but Noah, his family, and, two of every kind of animal....

You seem to think that God is too nice, too much made of Love to ever bring horrible judgment and death (alive in body, but in a casket of hell, so to speak) on the ones that sin and continue despite God's voice for them to hear, which they (unjust folks, and, notice , I didn't say 'sinners') turn a deaf ear because God did speak to Noah in Gen. 6:13, so one can see God surely pleaded with man to turn from their wickedness and thoughts that were not of God. Right?

But is God really too nice, too Loving to send the unjust to eternal torment?.... More verses, we go to 2 Peter 2:9 , which after talking about God having no mercy on the sinning angels, nor, Noah time wickedness of men, and, Sodom and Gomorrah cities annihilated for those cities lawlessness, it says this regarding the power and the capability of God.....

2 Peter 2:9 ~ Then the Lord(who can destroy sinning angels, Noah time unjust, etc) knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.

So, this 2P 2:9 verse tells that there is a suspended state for the unjust. Right?


Ok, then since this is going so well here, and, you're getting scareder and scareder of what hell really is or 'where', rather , Tombo4Christ, let's just mount the evidence from this same book and chapter with....

We are still speaking of what will happen to the unjust in this next verse.

2 Peter 2:17 ~ These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved (there's that 'there' spatial real place word again) the blackness of darkness forever.

------+
Where is 'fire' and 'darkness' in the same verse, Tombo, in the verses I type up there??

-----+-----
Your zeal fascinates me, as does, 2knows, but neither of you believe what I do regarding the 'gnashing of teeth' that will be thoses fates, eternally forever, who do not accept Christ in this life or , I think revelation speaks of God's mercy still there for nonbelievers to accept Him still in post-trib .

But...


Bottom line: there is no salvation for all and people who don't accept Christ in this life or the next post-trib time God, perhaps, will be merciful and give unbelievers' time to.change their belief to Him, or else.... they will weep and cry (seperated from God) for all eternity in the lake of fire, alive while burning. Hard for me to fathom too! Just horrid thought . The horror! The horror! But , also, the Truth.

When you've been given chance after chance (even after physical death on Earth, and, a person still.chooses not to believe in Christ, there time is up, so to speak, as, actually it is beginning in hell forevermore.

I think it is obvious that hell is, indeed, a place , and , God speaks about it as such as I do say,vand, smanDave supported with more of what I label straight from the Truth.

Does anyone want to post that 'gnashing teeth,' revelation verse, I am greennlazy tonight

God bless you all for your points made in Love, right or wrong, made in Love will advance.what God gives you, like in the parable of the talents. It is good for us to share our views, our labored dictum and chosen words that we feel the Spirit speaks to us to tell others is good, because it may take some time but God's Spirit in us will give us the Truth of this matter , for all to hear and decide to know

I want to speak about 'death' regarding hell , too, because tombo, you stake your belief of hell in its utter happening to the unbeliever after, first suffering punishment, as I understand your take.

And, 2knowHim, your belief in death as utter not happening does not sit right with me either.
I mean, I want to believe that I can just be a moyltivated good christian all through my life and then die off Earth, be with Christ , whether I am a believer or unbeliever but that, as Tombo says, takes meaning aay from Christ's sacrifice forvoir sins on the cross and coming to Him for repentance, and, being saved as opposed to 'lost,' who stay unfound in darkness forevermore in hell as my 2 Peter verses above all state.


Ok, enough for now, I really do need to go, the Lord leads, and, I got a big day manana, God bless you, my peeps

 

[Tombo]

------+
Where is 'fire' and 'darkness' in the same verse, Tombo, in the verses I type up there??

-----+-----
Your zeal fascinates me, as does, 2knows, but neither of you believe what I do regarding the 'gnashing of teeth' that will be thoses fates, eternally forever, who do not accept Christ in this life or , I think revelation speaks of God's mercy still there for nonbelievers to accept Him still in post-trib .

But...


Bottom line: there is no salvation for all and people who don't accept Christ in this life or the next post-trib time God, perhaps, will be merciful and give unbelievers' time to.change their belief to Him, or else.... they will weep and cry (seperated from God) for all eternity in the lake of fire, alive while burning. Hard for me to fathom too! Just horrid thought . The horror! The horror! But , also, the Truth.

When you've been given chance after chance (even after physical death on Earth, and, a person still.chooses not to believe in Christ, there time is up, so to speak, as, actually it is beginning in hell forevermore.

I think it is obvious that hell is, indeed, a place , and , God speaks about it as such as I do say,vand, smanDave supported with more of what I label straight from the Truth.

Does anyone want to post that 'gnashing teeth,' revelation verse, I am greennlazy tonight

God bless you all for your points made in Love, right or wrong, made in Love will advance.what God gives you, like in the parable of the talents. It is good for us to share our views, our labored dictum and chosen words that we feel the Spirit speaks to us to tell others is good, because it may take some time but God's Spirit in us will give us the Truth of this matter , for all to hear and decide to know

I want to speak about 'death' regarding hell , too, because tombo, you stake your belief of hell in its utter happening to the unbeliever after, first suffering punishment, as I understand your take.

And, 2knowHim, your belief in death as utter not happening does not sit right with me either.
I mean, I want to believe that I can just be a moyltivated good christian all through my life and then die off Earth, be with Christ , whether I am a believer or unbeliever but that, as Tombo says, takes meaning aay from Christ's sacrifice forvoir sins on the cross and coming to Him for repentance, and, being saved as opposed to 'lost,' who stay unfound in darkness forevermore in hell as my 2 Peter verses above all state.


Ok, enough for now, I really do need to go, the Lord leads, and, I got a big day manana, God bless you, my peeps

Hi GreenNnice,
The phrase gnashing of teeth is not referring to someone in pain or anguish, but someone who is filled wiith anger. At the end of the world when the lost receive their sentence of death and know they will not enherit the new heavens and earth, some will weep from sorrow and some will be angry at God.
Again, if we take a concordance and go through all of the Bible where the word gnash is found, it always speaks of rage and anger.

Here are all the references:

Job 16:9 "He has torn me in his wrath and hated me; he has gnashed his teeth at me; my adversary sharpens his eyes against me."

Psalm 35:16 "like profane mockers at a feast, they gnash at me with thier teeth."

Psalm 37:12 "The wicked plots against the righteous and gnashes his teeth at him."

Psalm 112:10 "The wicked man sees it and is angry; he gnashes his teeth and melts away; the desire of the wicked will perish!" Please read this whole Psalm, it is edifying to say the least.

Lamentations 2:16 "All your enimies rail against you; they hiss, they gnash their teeth, they cry: We have swallowed her! Ah, this is the day we longed for; now we have it; we see it!"

That is all of the references to gnashing with teeth in the old testament.

In Acts 7:54 we read "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him." NASB

Seeing all of these references, we can now read the other verses of the new testament that speak of gnashing of teeth more clearly. I too used to think it meant anguish and sorrow, but it doesn't at all.

Here are the other new testament references:
Mark 9:18
Matthew 8:12, 13:42,50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30
Luke 13:28

Please check all of this carefully.
God bless, my friend!!!!

Tom

 

[GreenNnice]

Hi GreenNnice,
The phrase gnashing of teeth is not referring to someone in pain or anguish, but someone who is filled wiith anger. At the end of the world when the lost receive their sentence of death and know they will not enherit the new heavens and earth, some will weep from sorrow and some will be angry at God.
Again, if we take a concordance and go through all of the Bible where the word gnash is found, it always speaks of rage and anger.

Here are all the references:

Job 16:9 "He has torn me in his wrath and hated me; he has gnashed his teeth at me; my adversary sharpens his eyes against me."

Psalm 35:16 "like profane mockers at a feast, they gnash at me with thier teeth."

Psalm 37:12 "The wicked plots against the righteous and gnashes his teeth at him."

Psalm 112:10 "The wicked man sees it and is angry; he gnashes his teeth and melts away; the desire of the wicked will perish!" Please read this whole Psalm, it is edifying to say the least.

Lamentations 2:16 "All your enimies rail against you; they hiss, they gnash their teeth, they cry: We have swallowed her! Ah, this is the day we longed for; now we have it; we see it!"

That is all of the references to gnashing with teeth in the old testament.

In Acts 7:54 we read "Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him." NASB

Seeing all of these references, we can now read the other verses of the new testament that speak of gnashing of teeth more clearly. I too used to think it meant anguish and sorrow, but it doesn't at all.

Here are the other new testament references:
Mark 9:18
Matthew 8:12, 13:42,50, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30
Luke 13:28

Please check all of this carefully.
God bless, my friend!!!!

Tom

Tomboy (were you a tom boy growing up )

Yeah, I agree, with those references of 'gnashing' speak of rage, rage, . Hey, isn't there some quote with 'rage, rage,' hmm, c'Mon , green brains, don't fail me now , but , in topic now, please list the revelation verse wjlhere it says '...where there will be weeping annd gnashing of teeth.'

And, tell me what this refers to .

Thanks, tomboy ,)

 

[2knowhim]

Tomboy (were you a tom boy growing up )

Yeah, I agree, with those references of 'gnashing' speak of rage, rage, . Hey, isn't there some quote with 'rage, rage,' hmm, c'Mon , green brains, don't fail me now , but , in topic now, please list the revelation verse wjlhere it says '...where there will be weeping annd gnashing of teeth.'

And, tell me what this refers to .

Thanks, tomboy ,)

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth


This was referring to the Jews, and the Nation Israel, when the Kingdom was turned over to the Gentiles.

And they saw this thing happening and were very angry, in fact Paul was apart of this Anger that is before the Lord appeared to him on the road to Damascus.


Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


Desolate
erēmos
er'-ay-mos
Of uncertain affinity; lonesome, that is, (by implication) waste (usually as a noun, G5561 being implied): - desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.

kho'-rah
Feminine of a derivative of the base of G5490 through the idea of empty expanse; room, that is, a space of territory (more or less extensive; often including its inhabitants): - coast, county, fields, grounds, land, region. Compare G5117.


Now I ask you both, is this The Abomination of Desolation, that Daniel spoke of?

or actually it says....The Abomination that maketh Desolate, Their Rejection of Messiah, left them this way.

 

[enochson]

I guess I'm sort of a lieralist. And I certainly am not a biblical scholar. But I have trouble not believing in hell as a place when Jesus mentioned it close to a dozen times during His ministry. He threw it out almost casually, as though everyone knew it existed. A couple of examples.

"...And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." (Matthew 5:22) Usually, you find fire in a "place", not an existence.

" And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell." (Mark 9:45) Again, someone usually gets "thrown into" a place.

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell." (Luke 12:5) Ditto.

It is unclear whether the "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation is hell, but I have no trouble in seeing it (hell) as the eternal resting place of souls that have not been saved by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

If you a lieralist then you will be one who will read the greek and tha heb. and would go with the translatetions of man,

 

[GreenNnice]

Tomboy (were you a tom boy growing up )

Yeah, I agree, with those references of 'gnashing' speak of rage, rage, . Hey, isn't there some quote with 'rage, rage,' hmm, c'Mon , green brains, don't fail me now , but , in topic now, please list the revelation verse wjlhere it says '...where there will be weeping annd gnashing of teeth.'

And, tell me what this refers to .

Thanks, tomboy ,)

What , tommybo, about the Revelation verses speaking of "....where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." ?

Note the word, 'there,' which augments the points I made in post #79, is in the above most viscious of all hell definitions of place, a 'there.'

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth


This was referring to the Jews, and the Nation Israel, when the Kingdom was turned over to the Gentiles.

And they saw this thing happening and were very angry, in fact Paul was apart of this Anger that is before the Lord appeared to him on the road to Damascus.


Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.


Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


Desolate
erēmos
er'-ay-mos
Of uncertain affinity; lonesome, that is, (by implication) waste (usually as a noun, G5561 being implied): - desert, desolate, solitary, wilderness.

kho'-rah
Feminine of a derivative of the base of G5490 through the idea of empty expanse; room, that is, a space of territory (more or less extensive; often including its inhabitants): - coast, county, fields, grounds, land, region. Compare G5117.


Now I ask you both, is this The Abomination of Desolation, that Daniel spoke of?

or actually it says....The Abomination that maketh Desolate, Their Rejection of Messiah, left them this way.

----
What about the revelation of hell as set forth in Revelation? What is your take, IknowHim, on that verse(s) , speaking here of my 'there' argument and '...where there will weeping and gnashing of teeth.'?

 

[2knowhim]

What , tommybo, about the Revelation verses speaking of "....where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." ?

Note the word, 'there,' which augments the points I made in post #79, is in the above most viscious of all hell definitions of place, a 'there.'


----
What about the revelation of hell as set forth in Revelation? What is your take, IknowHim, on that verse(s) , speaking here of my 'there' argument and '...where there will weeping and gnashing of teeth.'?

There is no such scripture in The Book of Revelation.

Death and Hell were cast into the Lake of Fire.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


You will only find that phase in Mat. and Luke the Gospels, and it is in direct reference to The Nation Israel.