A CHRISTIAN WHO BELIEVES THAT EACH DAY OF CREATION WEEK WAS MILLIONS OF YEARS.

[shroom2]

Between vs. 1&2 Is where Adam's fall took place, what do you think caused the darkness?

Satan's rebellion, certainly not the fall of Adam. Adam did not exist yet. That (the fall) happened in Gen 3.

 

[SkinnyGuy]

Technically speaking the Earth is around 4.5 Billion years old. On the topic of how long did it take god to created everything, whats a day to god? A day to us is 24 hours, but couldn't a day to him be hundreds of million years? I believe in a combination of creationism and evolutionism, I do believe that god created everything and it did take a "day" but not what we consider a day.

 

[Laodicea]

Technically speaking the Earth is around 4.5 Billion years old. On the topic of how long did it take god to created everything, whats a day to god? A day to us is 24 hours, but couldn't a day to him be hundreds of million years? I believe in a combination of creationism and evolutionism, I do believe that god created everything and it did take a "day" but not what we consider a day.

Exodus 20:11
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Looks like God created the earth in six 24 hour days

 

[SkinnyGuy]

Exodus 20:11
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Looks like God created the earth in six 24 hour days

Looks like nowhere in that passage did it say 24 hours. The bible was also written by man so of course they are going to use their own system of measurements, not what ever god's system was.

 

[General_Han_Solo]

If Jesus is our sabbath it will be shown by keeping His sabbath
Matthew 12:8
(8) For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

So where is the commandment from Jesus himself, to keep the Sabbath? Matthew 12:8 is precisely what I was saying, that Jesus is our sabbath, and therefore, whatever you do in the name of Christ, it should honor him. Every breath you take is your Sabbath in Him.

In the new earth it says there will be no need of the light of the sun it does not say there will be no sun.

Just like in Isaiah 60:19-20, John is clear in Revelation. You are using the KJV. A better rendering comes from the ISV...

Revelation 21:23
(23) The city doesn't need any sun or moon to give it light, because the glory of God gave it light, and the lamb was its lamp.

In the original creation of the first earth, there was no sun or moon either, for they were only created on the fourth day of Genesis one. However, there will be a return to that original condition, with the absence of the sun and the moon. The source of light in the Eternal Order will not come from such created things, but will be provided by the Creator of light, the Shechinah Glory of the Lamb, which will lighten all for the Eternal Order. The Gentiles of the earth will walk by means of this light, as well as those who served as kings in the old order.

 

[Laodicea]

So where is the commandment from Jesus himself, to keep the Sabbath? Matthew 12:8 is precisely what I was saying, that Jesus is our sabbath, and therefore, whatever you do in the name of Christ, it should honor him. Every breath you take is your Sabbath in Him.

Just like in Isaiah 60:19-20, John is clear in Revelation. You are using the KJV. A better rendering comes from the ISV...

Revelation 21:23
(23) The city doesn't need any sun or moon to give it light, because the glory of God gave it light, and the lamb was its lamp.

In the original creation of the first earth, there was no sun or moon either, for they were only created on the fourth day of Genesis one. However, there will be a return to that original condition, with the absence of the sun and the moon. The source of light in the Eternal Order will not come from such created things, but will be provided by the Creator of light, the Shechinah Glory of the Lamb, which will lighten all for the Eternal Order. The Gentiles of the earth will walk by means of this light, as well as those who served as kings in the old order.

Matthew 5:17-19
(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Since we are still here then all has not yet been fulfilled

Revelation 12:17
(17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14:12
(12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 14:7
(7) Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

The part highlighted in red in 14:7 comes from the Sabbath commandment
Exodus 20:11
(11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

So then Rev 14:7 is a call to worship God on the Sabbath

 

[General_Han_Solo]

Since we are still here then all has not yet been fulfilled

First, the Law is one single unit comprised of 613 specific commandments.

Secondly, the whole Law has been rendered inoperative; it is no longer in effect. Even the Ten Commandments no longer apply today.

Thirdly, the Law is still there in the sense that it could be used as a teaching tool to show God's standard of righteousness as well as man's sinfulness and his need for the Messiah. That is the lawful use of the Law.

Galatians 3:23-25
(23) Now before faith came about, we were held in custody and confined under the Law in preparation for the faith that was to be revealed.
(24) And so the Law was our guardian until the Messiah came, so that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But now that faith has come about, we are no longer under a guardian.

Fourthly, that it is no longer the rule of life for the believer, because the believer is no longer under the Law.
​

Matthew 5:17-19

Matthew 5:17-19
(17) "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them,
(18) because I tell you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.
(19) So whoever sets aside one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom from heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom from heaven

I gather that you (like every other legalist) like to use this passage against the above conclusions, because Jesus said that He did not come to destroy or to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. However, six things about this passage should be noted.

First, this is the main passage people like to use to maintain the Sabbath law and other features of the Law.

​

Secondly, while you emphasize verse 18, you tend to ignore verse 19 which adds: least of these commandments. In other words, the context of Matthew 5:17-19 is not only concerned with the Sabbath law or only the Ten Commandments or only the major laws, but even the most minute laws, all 613 commandments. When verse 19 adds, least of these commandments, it includes the entire Law, all 613 commandments.

​

Thirdly, the Greek word for "fulfill" is πληρῶσαι, which is used by Matthew in the sense of fulfilling prophecy, thus bringing that prophecy to an end. In Matthew 1:22–23, he used the term of the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14. He does not mean that Isaiah 7:14 can be fulfilled again in the future, he simply means that it is a fulfillment of prophecy, bringing it to an end.

​

Fourthly, the word means the accomplishment of prophecy by fulfilling it, in contrast to its abolishment by failing to fulfill it. The point of Matthew is that the Messiah came to fulfill, not to abolish.

​

Fifth, these words were spoken during Jesus' lifetime when the Law was still in effect. As long as He was living, He still had to obey the Law.

​

Sixth, the Law did not end with the coming of Jesus. It ended with the His death. It was then that Law was rendered inoperative.​

Revelation 12:17

Revelation 12:17
(17) The dragon became angry with the woman and went away to do battle against the rest of her children, the ones who keep God's commandments and hold on to the testimony about Jesus.

This verse is saying that Satan will war against two groups of Jews in particular:

1. Those who keep God's commandments, the Orthodox Jews; and

2. Those who hold on to the testimony of Jesus, the believing Jewish Remnant of the Tribulation, as well as the 144,000 Jewish evangelists of Revelation 7.

Please, correct exegesis.

 

[feedm3]

So well said. The Bible doesn't even TRY to tell us when or how. It tells us WHO and WHY. God gave us scientists to tell us when and how.

If evolution is not correct, then God is a liar. I, for one, will not worship a liar.

So you base your belief in God on a theory thought up by man?
"God gave us scientist to tell us when and how"?

NO God gave us the Bible to tell us who, why, when, and how.

Who -God Gen 1:1

Why - to set aside for himself a special people -
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:4-5 (KJV)

When - in the beginning - Gen 1:1

How - By His mighty wisdom and power:
5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
6 To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Psalms 136:5-9 (KJV)

I did not need a scientist to tell me that.

 

[feedm3]

Matthew 5:17-19
(17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Since we are still here then all has not yet been fulfilled

You conclusion is wrong. He was not saying the law of Moses would be binding until the second coming, he said the law would be binding "till all be fulfilled". Meaning all that applied to the completion of the Law of Moses. That is why on the cross he said "it is finished" he fulfilled the shadow and prophecies in the OT of the coming Messiah.
He ended the Law of Moses, in fact it is a sin to try and continue under that law system, read Romans and Gal.
Again, keeping the commands of God are the commands of Chirst -
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:48-49 (KJV)

 

[Laodicea]

First, the Law is one single unit comprised of 613 specific commandments.

Secondly, the whole Law has been rendered inoperative; it is no longer in effect. Even the Ten Commandments no longer apply today.

Thirdly, the Law is still there in the sense that it could be used as a teaching tool to show God's standard of righteousness as well as man's sinfulness and his need for the Messiah. That is the lawful use of the Law.

Galatians 3:23-25
(23) Now before faith came about, we were held in custody and confined under the Law in preparation for the faith that was to be revealed.
(24) And so the Law was our guardian until the Messiah came, so that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But now that faith has come about, we are no longer under a guardian.

Fourthly, that it is no longer the rule of life for the believer, because the believer is no longer under the Law.
​

Matthew 5:17-19
(17) "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them,
(18) because I tell you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.
(19) So whoever sets aside one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom from heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom from heaven

I gather that you (like every other legalist) like to use this passage against the above conclusions, because Jesus said that He did not come to destroy or to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. However, six things about this passage should be noted.

First, this is the main passage people like to use to maintain the Sabbath law and other features of the Law.

​

Secondly, while you emphasize verse 18, you tend to ignore verse 19 which adds: least of these commandments. In other words, the context of Matthew 5:17-19 is not only concerned with the Sabbath law or only the Ten Commandments or only the major laws, but even the most minute laws, all 613 commandments. When verse 19 adds, least of these commandments, it includes the entire Law, all 613 commandments.

​

Thirdly, the Greek word for "fulfill" is πληρῶσαι, which is used by Matthew in the sense of fulfilling prophecy, thus bringing that prophecy to an end. In Matthew 1:22–23, he used the term of the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14. He does not mean that Isaiah 7:14 can be fulfilled again in the future, he simply means that it is a fulfillment of prophecy, bringing it to an end.

​

Fourthly, the word means the accomplishment of prophecy by fulfilling it, in contrast to its abolishment by failing to fulfill it. The point of Matthew is that the Messiah came to fulfill, not to abolish.

​

Fifth, these words were spoken during Jesus' lifetime when the Law was still in effect. As long as He was living, He still had to obey the Law.

​

Sixth, the Law did not end with the coming of Jesus. It ended with the His death. It was then that Law was rendered inoperative.​

Revelation 12:17
(17) The dragon became angry with the woman and went away to do battle against the rest of her children, the ones who keep God's commandments and hold on to the testimony about Jesus.

This verse is saying that Satan will war against two groups of Jews in particular:

1. Those who keep God's commandments, the Orthodox Jews; and

2. Those who hold on to the testimony of Jesus, the believing Jewish Remnant of the Tribulation, as well as the 144,000 Jewish evangelists of Revelation 7.

Please, correct exegesis.

You have contradicted yourself. If you want to discuss the Law further you can start a new thread.

 

[feedm3]

First, the Law is one single unit comprised of 613 specific commandments.

Secondly, the whole Law has been rendered inoperative; it is no longer in effect. Even the Ten Commandments no longer apply today.

Thirdly, the Law is still there in the sense that it could be used as a teaching tool to show God's standard of righteousness as well as man's sinfulness and his need for the Messiah. That is the lawful use of the Law.

Galatians 3:23-25
(23) Now before faith came about, we were held in custody and confined under the Law in preparation for the faith that was to be revealed.
(24) And so the Law was our guardian until the Messiah came, so that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But now that faith has come about, we are no longer under a guardian.

Fourthly, that it is no longer the rule of life for the believer, because the believer is no longer under the Law.
​

Matthew 5:17-19
(17) "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them,
(18) because I tell you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.
(19) So whoever sets aside one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom from heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom from heaven

I gather that you (like every other legalist) like to use this passage against the above conclusions, because Jesus said that He did not come to destroy or to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. However, six things about this passage should be noted.

First, this is the main passage people like to use to maintain the Sabbath law and other features of the Law.

​

Secondly, while you emphasize verse 18, you tend to ignore verse 19 which adds: least of these commandments. In other words, the context of Matthew 5:17-19 is not only concerned with the Sabbath law or only the Ten Commandments or only the major laws, but even the most minute laws, all 613 commandments. When verse 19 adds, least of these commandments, it includes the entire Law, all 613 commandments.

​

Thirdly, the Greek word for "fulfill" is πληρῶσαι, which is used by Matthew in the sense of fulfilling prophecy, thus bringing that prophecy to an end. In Matthew 1:22–23, he used the term of the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14. He does not mean that Isaiah 7:14 can be fulfilled again in the future, he simply means that it is a fulfillment of prophecy, bringing it to an end.

​

Fourthly, the word means the accomplishment of prophecy by fulfilling it, in contrast to its abolishment by failing to fulfill it. The point of Matthew is that the Messiah came to fulfill, not to abolish.

​

Fifth, these words were spoken during Jesus' lifetime when the Law was still in effect. As long as He was living, He still had to obey the Law.

​

Sixth, the Law did not end with the coming of Jesus. It ended with the His death. It was then that Law was rendered inoperative.​

I agree with everything you said here, well put. However below is another story.

Revelation 12:17
(17) The dragon became angry with the woman and went away to do battle against the rest of her children, the ones who keep God's commandments and hold on to the testimony about Jesus.

This verse is saying that Satan will war against two groups of Jews in particular:

1. Those who keep God's commandments, the Orthodox Jews; and

2. Those who hold on to the testimony of Jesus, the believing Jewish Remnant of the Tribulation, as well as the 144,000 Jewish evangelists of Revelation 7.

Please, correct exegesis.

How you came to this conclusion is beyond me. Those who keep the commands of God are the ones who hold to the testimony of Jesus. To accept Christ as the Messiah is the will of Father. There is no two groups of "jews", in fact all Christains are "jews" now in the heart.
This conclusion can only be drawn by incorrect eisegesis

 

[tribesman]

First, the Law is one single unit comprised of 613 specific commandments.

Secondly, the whole Law has been rendered inoperative; it is no longer in effect. Even the Ten Commandments no longer apply today.

Thirdly, the Law is still there in the sense that it could be used as a teaching tool to show God's standard of righteousness as well as man's sinfulness and his need for the Messiah. That is the lawful use of the Law.

Galatians 3:23-25
(23) Now before faith came about, we were held in custody and confined under the Law in preparation for the faith that was to be revealed.
(24) And so the Law was our guardian until the Messiah came, so that we might be justified by faith.
(25) But now that faith has come about, we are no longer under a guardian.

Fourthly, that it is no longer the rule of life for the believer, because the believer is no longer under the Law.​

How can the law "still" be "there" in what you call the "lawful sense" if it is yet " inoperative" and "no longer in effect"?

And how will a christian's life look like if he is to neglect the law as a rule of life and can ignore the ten commandments?

You are grossly contradicting yourself.

Who taught you this?
​

 

[keshka]

Seeing as light in the Universe comes from stars (by light I mean actual beams of photons, not metaphysical light), I suppose the real question is: how could God create night and day on the first day, if we presume that Sun (the very object that created night and day) isn't formed until day four!

Besides which, the term 'day' is rendered completely meaningless without the presence of the Sun (as a day is defined as the length of time taken for the Earth to orbit the Sun), so how could days even exist before the 'fourth day'?

It's obviously just a parable - the overwhelming evidence for the gradual evolution of species is so palpable that only a fool would ingore it blindly.

Whilst I do love Genesis - it's very awe-inspiring, very lyrical, and with some interesting messages - I don't think we can take it as literal truth.

You have to consider when Genesis was written. In those days, they actually thought that the Earth was the centre of the Universe. High concepts that we take for granted, such as evolution, the Big Bang etc. would be almost impossible to understand for the primitive civilisations of the Middle East.

So God gave us the creation story in the form of a parable, in layman's terms that the people of the day could easily understand.

"God creates the universe in a Big Bang and moulds humanity as part of a gradual process" would've been, I think, too much for the people of the day to fully comprehend.

So the story was given to them in simpler concepts so that people in ancient times would know that God created them and the Universe, but without going into particle physics and quantum theory that would've gone over their heads!

 

[Laodicea]

Seeing as light in the Universe comes from stars (by light I mean actual beams of photons, not metaphysical light), I suppose the real question is: how could God create night and day on the first day, if we presume that Sun (the very object that created night and day) isn't formed until day four!

Besides which, the term 'day' is rendered completely meaningless without the presence of the Sun (as a day is defined as the length of time taken for the Earth to orbit the Sun), so how could days even exist before the 'fourth day'?

It's obviously just a parable - the overwhelming evidence for the gradual evolution of species is so palpable that only a fool would ingore it blindly.

Whilst I do love Genesis - it's very awe-inspiring, very lyrical, and with some interesting messages - I don't think we can take it as literal truth.

You have to consider when Genesis was written. In those days, they actually thought that the Earth was the centre of the Universe. High concepts that we take for granted, such as evolution, the Big Bang etc. would be almost impossible to understand for the primitive civilisations of the Middle East.

So God gave us the creation story in the form of a parable, in layman's terms that the people of the day could easily understand.

"God creates the universe in a Big Bang and moulds humanity as part of a gradual process" would've been, I think, too much for the people of the day to fully comprehend.

So the story was given to them in simpler concepts so that people in ancient times would know that God created them and the Universe, but without going into particle physics and quantum theory that would've gone over their heads!

A day comes by the earth spinning on its axis, not by the sun and moon

 

[Laodicea]

Psalms 33:9
(9) For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
Psalms 148:5
(5) Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

Seeing as light in the Universe comes from stars (by light I mean actual beams of photons, not metaphysical light), I suppose the real question is: how could God create night and day on the first day, if we presume that Sun (the very object that created night and day) isn't formed until day four!

Besides which, the term 'day' is rendered completely meaningless without the presence of the Sun (as a day is defined as the length of time taken for the Earth to orbit the Sun), so how could days even exist before the 'fourth day'?

It's obviously just a parable - the overwhelming evidence for the gradual evolution of species is so palpable that only a fool would ingore it blindly.

Whilst I do love Genesis - it's very awe-inspiring, very lyrical, and with some interesting messages - I don't think we can take it as literal truth.

You have to consider when Genesis was written. In those days, they actually thought that the Earth was the centre of the Universe. High concepts that we take for granted, such as evolution, the Big Bang etc. would be almost impossible to understand for the primitive civilisations of the Middle East.

So God gave us the creation story in the form of a parable, in layman's terms that the people of the day could easily understand.

"God creates the universe in a Big Bang and moulds humanity as part of a gradual process" would've been, I think, too much for the people of the day to fully comprehend.

So the story was given to them in simpler concepts so that people in ancient times would know that God created them and the Universe, but without going into particle physics and quantum theory that would've gone over their heads!

FINALLY! Someone else who gets it!

I'm so glad I'm not the only one here who gets it.

And really, a majority of Christians understand it as keshka and I do. I'm not sure why we seem like a minority on this forum.

 

[feedm3]

How can the law "still" be "there" in what you call the "lawful sense" if it is yet " inoperative" and "no longer in effect"?​

Dont know how he meant this, but as I understand it, the lawful use would be using the law for our learning, yet not binding it upon ourselves or others - Rom 15:4.

And how will a Christian's life look like if he is to neglect the law as a rule of life and can ignore the ten commandments?

It would look like a Christian life. The law was done away with - Col 2:14. We no longer keep the sabbath, celebrate passover, Pentecost etc. We no longer stone those in adultery, or those that work on the sabbath, etc. God will render all punishment, not us.

The 10 commands were the foundation for the rest of the law of Moses. We do not "ignore" them by not binding them, they are covered in the NT by the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. Not only covered but altered with more detail and instruction. For example, thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife has been changed where even lusting after a woman is adultery in the heart. Christ took the physical acts of the 10 commands and showed not only the act is sinful, but even the very thoughts that lead to the acts are sinful.
Murder is sin, covered in the 10, yet hate was not mentioned until Christ came and bound the inner man as well as the outward. The very thought that leads to murder (hate) is sinful.

​

 

[General_Han_Solo]

You have contradicted yourself. If you want to discuss the Law further you can start a new thread.

You can start one. You brought in the topic of the Law.

 

[General_Han_Solo]

There is no two groups of "jews", in fact all Christains are "jews" now in the heart.
This conclusion can only be drawn by incorrect eisegesis

I take it you are a Covenant Theologian? I am a Dispensationalist.

 

[General_Han_Solo]

How can the law "still" be "there" in what you call the "lawful sense" if it is yet " inoperative" and "no longer in effect"?​

Think of the Law as a theoretical threshold that no one will ever be able to fulfill perfectly. Through Christ's New Covenant (Hebrews 8 is very specific on this), we are no longer obligated to follow the Law, nor will God judge us based on that Law.

And how will a christian's life look like if he is to neglect the law as a rule of life and can ignore the ten commandments?

Simple. Christians are now obligated to adhere to the Law of the Messiah.

​

For example...

Galatians 6:2
(2) Practice carrying each other's burdens. In this way you will fulfill the law of the Messiah.