Misunderstanding of Hell

Tombo · Mar 15, 2012

I am the author of this thread, and if you bothered to read through it you would know that I've shown form the scriptures that God will not eternally torment anyone. The end of the wicked is destruction, body and soul.
I encourage you to start at the beginning of this thread and read through it.
But it still doesn't take away form that fact that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Only those whom He chose to salvation will be secure. And the Bible is crystal clear that all will not be saved. Your wickedness comes from your insistence in teaching something that God has not said. And I never said you lived a raucous lifestyle.
Why do you think the Lord Jesus gave the command to bring the gospel to all nations of the world??? Was it just to tell them that they will be saved whether they believe in Him or not??? You told me in one post that if I really believed what I said, then I should be running in the streets sharing it with everyone. Well, that's what the Bible tells us to do!!!! The Gopel of salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ alone is so important (because those who don't trust Him will perish) that we should be in the streets sharing with anyone that will listen. Don't you see what a mockery it makes out of sharing the Gospel if all will be saved anyway???
Your problem is that you don't understand the complete and utter spiritual darkness man is in since the fall. As Ephesians tells us, we are DEAD in our sins. As Luther once put it, dead doesn't mean a little bit alive.
Please pray for God to open your eyes to these things.

Tom

Laodicea · Mar 15, 2012

Israel said:

Read the surrounding verses it is talking about the resurrection. We cannot go to heaven with our current body

1 Corinthians 15:50-54
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

krisbrian · Mar 15, 2012

For you people who teach universal salvation to others.....

James 3:1 Be not many teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive greater judgment.

So dangerous to teach this to people. They hear it and then become complacent thinking they can live life however they want and then they end up in hell.

Laodicea · Mar 15, 2012

Tombo said:

I am the author of this thread, and if you bothered to read through it you would know that I've shown form the scriptures that God will not eternally torment anyone. The end of the wicked is destruction, body and soul.
I encourage you to start at the beginning of this thread and read through it.
But it still doesn't take away form that fact that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Only those whom He chose to salvation will be secure. And the Bible is crystal clear that all will not be saved. Your wickedness comes from your insistence in teaching something that God has not said. And I never said you lived a raucous lifestyle.
Why do you think the Lord Jesus gave the command to bring the gospel to all nations of the world??? Was it just to tell them that they will be saved whether they believe in Him or not??? You told me in one post that if I really believed what I said, then I should be running in the streets sharing it with everyone. Well, that's what the Bible tells us to do!!!! The Gopel of salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ alone is so important (because those who don't trust Him will perish) that we should be in the streets sharing with anyone that will listen. Don't you see what a mockery it makes out of sharing the Gospel if all will be saved anyway???
Your problem is that you don't understand the complete and utter spiritual darkness man is in since the fall. As Ephesians tells us, we are DEAD in our sins. As Luther once put it, dead doesn't mean a little bit alive.
Please pray for God to open your eyes to these things.

Tom

That is true, look at what happens to the wicked.
Revelation 20:9
(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

tribesman · Mar 15, 2012

krisbrian said:

You are right about this. We are many who have denounced universalism here, bringing up many scriptures as proof that its claims are not biblical. It has all fallen on deaf ears and seemingly even hardened those into it getting more vocal about it as time goes.

Israel · Mar 15, 2012

Tombo said:

The gospel is to be preached to all nations not to keep people in bondage, but to release them from their burdens. It is GOOD NEWS! I see the same lawlessness in the world as you do. But to that I say to whom was the law made for??

The bible states that faith without works is dead. I need you all to understand this.

Romans 12:3; 18-21

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

EVERY MAN HAS A MEASURE OF FAITH THAT YHWH HAS GIVEN THEM. By this measure, ALL men work accordingly, whatever that work may be.

You have avoided my question twice now man of God regarding unclean vessels. Now if these unclean vessels who are fitted for destruction are so TO MAKE KNOWN GOD'S WRATH, how could they be anything but what God made them to be?

Myself and 2KnowHim have shown you love and in return we have received of you hate. And I lie not. You all frustrate the hell out of me with this type of thinking! But even in this:

18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

We are brothers beloved but don't get it confused. We are enemies! You think as a man and judge as a man. To me judgement is made! Or have you not read that to be in Christ you must be baptised in His DEATH?

You are hungry Tom, and we fed you with life. You were thirsty and we gave you truth. And in doing so we have heaped coals of fire on your head. Not literally but that which governs that twisted way of thinking you operate according to.Because surely you have known someone who by your standard, didn't make the cut! They "died in their sins". Maybe a family member or a friend. But even in death will you continue to hold them in oppression?

Tombo · Mar 15, 2012

It is quite apparent that no one (except God) can shake you loose of this deception that you're under. I (and many others here) have shown you and 2knowhim the errors of your teachings, but you both remain stiffnecked and hardened in your sin.
If you and 2knowhim want to persist in this heresy, then share it with each other and spare the other new Christians here. Have mercy on them and don't lead them down the path of death and destruction, the same path you two are on if you don't repent of this teaching.
God's will is to save all whom He chooses to save, and to harden all whom He wishes. Since we are all born dead in sin and deserving of death and destruction, God would be just in destroying us all. But because He decided to have mercy on some, you accuse Him of unrighteousness. I maintain what the Bible teaches, that God has power over the clay to make one vessel for honorable use and one for dishonorable. The dishonorable have been prepared for destruction. And the ones made for honorable use (the saved) are only saved by God's sovereign choice and grace. They are no better than the lost, since all are born dead in sin and trespasses.
And think about it, God is only letting the lost go on their merry way. They could care less about God and His ways. They aren't thinking about the judgment to come. In fact, they dont even believe in it. So it's not like these peope are saying, "Oh God, have mercy on us, don't let us perish." No way. They love their sin and want nothing to do with God, the same as believers did before God saved them. So for you to say that God doesn't have the right to save some from the lump of depraved humanity, who deserve to be totally destroyed just as the rest, you stand in judgment over God. I would never want to be in your place. God is God, He owes us NOTHING (except judgment), but gives us (believers)all things through the righteouness of His Beloved Son. I am saved. I had nothing to do with my salvation, it was all of God's doing. I know my heart better than any, I know I deserve to be cast away. But God in His mercy saved me. What am I to say to God for this indescribable gift, that He is wrong for saving me and not everyone??? As humans, we can relate to the human plight, and we want all to be saved. But we aren't God. And as far as the vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, that is none of our business who they are. Only God knows all those who are His own, we don't. But God chose to to make known to His elect the riches of His love and mercy by means of preaching and sharing His word. Those who are God's will listen, those who are not His will not listen.
Once again; If you think all will be saved, read this one verse again...2 Thess.1:7-10 "and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might, when He comes on that day to be glorified in His saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed..."
If you still hold to your false view, than get an eraser and remove this verse from your Bible. According to you, it shouldn't be there.

Tom

2knowhim · Mar 15, 2012

I would rather address it than erase it.

But I am curious what translation your using because I have more than 10 here and I can't find
one of them that puts the word "Away from the presence" in it. Not one.

But, nevertheless, we also have tried to get you to look at the words, everlasting, eternal, and forever and forever, but you will not, and to further your doctrine you insist on using them anyhow.

The scripture you insist on using properly translated says this:

2Th 1:7 and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers,

Notice the word "UNVEILING" it is the word "REVELATION" To take the cover off.

Now, what do you suppose is going to happen when those who has not had that sanctified place prepared in them,( I'm talking about The Christ, for this is the only way you and I can come into His presence, He is that Sanctified place where we meet God.)

Let me show you ok?

Exo 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
Exo 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
Exo 19:20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up.
Exo 19:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish.
Exo 19:22 And let the priests also, which come near to the LORD, sanctify themselves, lest the LORD break forth upon them.

See, Fire breaks forth on that which is not Sanctified, or that which is nothing more than wood hay and stubble. It is From The Glory of His Very Presence, that this happens.

At this Unveiling I believe they would absolutely melt, because of His Glory, in this Present Age.
While in the Flesh, But I don't believe it to be that way. Because of this scripture.

Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

To convince, means.....To convict Fully, and by that convicting comes rebuke, to tell them their faults.

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ"
2Th 1:9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength"
2Th 1:10 whenever He may be coming to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all who believe (seeing that our testimony to you was believed) in that day.

But the man shall be saved, through the fire of His Judgments, and From The Presence of His Glory.

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

2knowhim · Mar 15, 2012

I just found this today.* Moses asks God the same question about making creation only to destroy it.

Exodus 32:11-14*
11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.*

Now, I ask you, how much more do you think He has relented, Since He Has Heard His Own Son Cry, "Father Forgive Them They Know Not What They Do"?

They may very well die and perish in this present age, but All hope is never lost, Not with His Son's sacrifice in place, and Not because of the Great Love wherewith He loved us.

Tombo · Mar 15, 2012

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction DESTRUCTION!!!!

Tom

2knowhim · Mar 15, 2012

Wow, I don't even know what to say, Just wow.

So, Sad.

Tombo · Mar 15, 2012

2knowhim said:

Those are God's words, not mine. You just can't deal with it.

Tom

fullofjoy · Mar 15, 2012

if he cares so much for his sun why did he him self go up on a cross and become a blood sacrifice when in resolute he killed and slaughted millions of people just becuase they built a tower babel

fullofjoy · Mar 15, 2012

hell is blue it is beutiful if i told you the president whats kill all first borns would you beilve it or would want wact hthe news first yhvh is anti life and wants you rot in spirtual aggnorants

Israel · Mar 15, 2012

Tombo said:

I ask you. Of what law are we breaking by believing that all will be saved?

shroom2 · Mar 15, 2012

Israel said:

You're not breaking a law. But you are not believing truth. You can believe all will be saved until the cows come home. It has the same effect as believing the moon is made of cheese.

People must accept Jesus Christ IN THIS LIFE to be saved.

Tombo · Mar 15, 2012

Israel said:

You are believing and teaching something that the Bible does not teach. I know it is out of love for your fellow man that you can't bring yourself to accept that any will be lost, but you must just trust that God will do all things perfectly in His own way and in His own time.

As I've repeatedly said, we don't know who the lost are, so from our perspective everyone is a possible child of God, in need of hearing the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. And God will open the eyes of His own. We need not worry about it to the point of teaching universal salvation.

As I've also said before, the teaching of election and predestination is only put forward in the Bible to show that God is sovereign in all things, not to have us worry whether this one or that one may or may not be chosen of God. We have the hope that since God is responsble for opening a person's heart we need not despair of their perishing. God is meriful, He delights in saving the lost. He gave His greastest gift, His Son, our Lord, to save His lost.
If you stick to warning people to flee to Christ for salvation, and to not trust in anything or anyone other than Him, then you can have good hope that God will hear your prayer.

I didn't write those rebukes to you and 2knowhim in order to hurt your feelings, but to warn you of your error and the danger of persisting in it. I did it out of concern for God's word, you, and others who may be reading what we say.
God bless.

Tom

shroom2 · Mar 15, 2012

Tombo said:

Hello, Tom.

All who choose not to believe are God's lost.

God wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), and is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9). He is trying to open every person's heart.

Not all will choose to listen. God gave man free will, and will not overstep it. He does not predestinate who will be saved and who will be lost. It's every man's decision.

But I do agree with you on what hell is. Unbelievers will die the second death, and be annihilated. Nobody will be tortured forever. God is just, and there is no crime worthy of eternal torture.

(and because God is just, salvation is available to any man who will choose to believe)

Tombo · Mar 15, 2012

Hi Shroom2,
We've gone over this before, so why bring it up again? I showed you those verses in John where it says that no man can come to Jesus unless the Father first draws Him. Why would Jesus make that statement if the Father is drawing everyone to His Son??? Again, you're not following things to their logical conclusions.
John 6:63-65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all/ profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." ( For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him.) And He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

More clearer it could not be. Give glory to God and not to your decision to "accept Christ".
God bless.

Tom

GreenNnice · Mar 15, 2012

Tombo said:

It is quite apparent that no one (except God) can shake you loose of this deception that you're under. I (and many others here) have shown you and 2knowhim the errors of your teachings, but you both remain stiffnecked and hardened in your sin.
If you and 2knowhim want to persist in this heresy, then share it with each other and spare the other new Christians here. Have mercy on them and don't lead them down the path of death and destruction, the same path you two are on if you don't repent of this teaching.
God's will is to save all whom He chooses to save, and to harden all whom He wishes. Since we are all born dead in sin and deserving of death and destruction, God would be just in destroying us all. But because He decided to have mercy on some, you accuse Him of unrighteousness. I maintain what the Bible teaches, that God has power over the clay to make one vessel for honorable use and one for dishonorable. The dishonorable have been prepared for destruction. And the ones made for honorable use (the saved) are only saved by God's sovereign choice and grace. They are no better than the lost, since all are born dead in sin and trespasses.
And think about it, God is only letting the lost go on their merry way. They could care less about God and His ways. They aren't thinking about the judgment to come. In fact, they dont even believe in it. So it's not like these peope are saying, "Oh God, have mercy on us, don't let us perish." No way. They love their sin and want nothing to do with God, the same as believers did before God saved them. So for you to say that God doesn't have the right to save some from the lump of depraved humanity, who deserve to be totally destroyed just as the rest, you stand in judgment over God. I would never want to be in your place. God is God, He owes us NOTHING (except judgment), but gives us (believers)all things through the righteouness of His Beloved Son. I am saved. I had nothing to do with my salvation, it was all of God's doing. I know my heart better than any, I know I deserve to be cast away. But God in His mercy saved me. What am I to say to God for this indescribable gift, that He is wrong for saving me and not everyone??? As humans, we can relate to the human plight, and we want all to be saved. But we aren't God. And as far as the vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, that is none of our business who they are. Only God knows all those who are His own, we don't. But God chose to to make known to His elect the riches of His love and mercy by means of preaching and sharing His word. Those who are God's will listen, those who are not His will not listen.
Once again; If you think all will be saved, read this one verse again...2 Thess.1:7-10 "and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might, when He comes on that day to be glorified in His saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed..."
If you still hold to your false view, than get an eraser and remove this verse from your Bible. According to you, it shouldn't be there.

Tom

+--+

TommyBgood, can one be in state of 'eternal destruction' without being actually physically destroyed?

This according to your 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 scripture, sprcifically, verse 9, but the verses around it provide full context of this being reference to the afterlife, or, what happens to us after we die the "2nd death," referred to in Revelation 20.

Doesn't this verse you listed destroy your whole temporary Hell punishment before God scrubs Hades utterly and completely of unbelievers?

Misunderstanding of Hell

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