-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Because your comments may deceive some others reading this into Calvinism, and develop wrong ideas about how God deals with people. God LOVES men, and wants them all to choose to be saved.
Deut 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Acts 17:30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Rom 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
More clear it could not be. Thank God for His tremendous love for men that He made salvation available to anyone who will choose to believe.
I will leave you to your thread.
Deut 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Acts 17:30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Rom 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
More clear it could not be. Thank God for His tremendous love for men that He made salvation available to anyone who will choose to believe.
I will leave you to your thread.
If they were in a state of Eternal destruction, then that means they would also have Eternal life.
If their completely and Utterly destroyed right here in 2 Thes. Then how can they be thrown into
the Lake of Fire? If He raises them in Resurrection, to cast them into the Lake of fire, then they are
being judge twice. And if He raise them up from the dead, that would also mean that they would
have to put on immortality. See the confusion? There is only one answer that makes all scripture flow in harmony.
T
If you "choose" Christ and become saved, can you unchoose Him and become unsaved??? If you have free will to choose Him, don't you have free will to deny Him and lose your salvation???
When I get to heaven I wil be eternallyl thankful to God for choosing me, because I know, left to myself, I would never have chosen Him. I know, not only from God's word, but from my own heart that I was dead in sin. There is none righteous, no, not one.
Tom
When I get to heaven I wil be eternallyl thankful to God for choosing me, because I know, left to myself, I would never have chosen Him. I know, not only from God's word, but from my own heart that I was dead in sin. There is none righteous, no, not one.
Tom
G
----
The crux of your argument for temporary Hell is that people will perish, based on John 3:16, and, they will perish , which, as I said before , can be compared to fruit, which perishes by rotting away, and, since fruit is biodegradeable, it rots to nothingness.
----
Now, I am just thinking out loud, but what gets me is that after the words 'eternal destruction' are these words, 'away from the presence of the Lord.'
This tells me that the unbelievers are receiving the Lord's vengeance, said as 'flaming fire' in NKJV.
See, God does not say that unbelievers , who both 'do not know God' and 'who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ' will be scrubbed from existence forevermore after the 'eternal destruction' words. The Lord says simply that unbelievers will be 'away from the presence of the Lord.'
This leads me to say that the Lord would have been clear in detail if he was stating he would destroy unbelievers. It would have just been 'destruction' the Lord was going to mete unbelievers with and not 'eternal destruction' which is opposite of a word to 'temporary.'
Blessings, too, to you, tommybo
The crux of your argument for temporary Hell is that people will perish, based on John 3:16, and, they will perish , which, as I said before , can be compared to fruit, which perishes by rotting away, and, since fruit is biodegradeable, it rots to nothingness.
----
Now, I am just thinking out loud, but what gets me is that after the words 'eternal destruction' are these words, 'away from the presence of the Lord.'
This tells me that the unbelievers are receiving the Lord's vengeance, said as 'flaming fire' in NKJV.
See, God does not say that unbelievers , who both 'do not know God' and 'who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ' will be scrubbed from existence forevermore after the 'eternal destruction' words. The Lord says simply that unbelievers will be 'away from the presence of the Lord.'
This leads me to say that the Lord would have been clear in detail if he was stating he would destroy unbelievers. It would have just been 'destruction' the Lord was going to mete unbelievers with and not 'eternal destruction' which is opposite of a word to 'temporary.'
Blessings, too, to you, tommybo
No. Salvation for Christians is permanent. The holy spirit a Christian receives is the earnest, the token, the seed of salvation. It is born within. If a person walks away, he may well lose rewards, but he will still be saved.
1 Cor 3:
14) If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
15) If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
But you did. Any man can.
Right. Nobody deserves salvation, nobody is good enough for salvation. That's why we must believe on the savior from sin, Jesus Christ.
God bless.
1 Cor 3:
14) If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
15) If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
But you did. Any man can.
Right. Nobody deserves salvation, nobody is good enough for salvation. That's why we must believe on the savior from sin, Jesus Christ.
God bless.
T
You say that no one deserve salvation, but by insisting that you have free will to choose Christ, you are saying that you deserve it because you chose Christ, and not because Christ chose you.
I don't doubt your salvation, shroom, I just think you are greatly mistaken and are taking glory away from God and what He has done for you.
God bless.
Tom
I don't doubt your salvation, shroom, I just think you are greatly mistaken and are taking glory away from God and what He has done for you.
God bless.
Tom
L
John 17:12
(12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Hebrews 10:38-39
(38) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
(39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Hebrews 10:38-39
(38) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
(39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
G
------
Having no 'eternal life in abiding in Him' is not to be taken in the literal, at least not the 'life' word, as I see it and I believe I can show scripture for this proof. tommybo, this is speaking of this murdering person not going to be going to Heaven for life everlasting. eternal life in 1 john 3:11 = everlasting life in Heaven , to equation my understanding
Now some scripture for importance and meaning for the word 'life' in a grand sense....
I am the way , the truth, and, the life, no man comes to the
Father but by me. The word 'life' refers to eternal life in Heaven.
This 'brother' and 'murdering' versse , as you listed, tommybo, from 1 John 3:15 (not 1 John 3:11 , as you listed, can be proven to mean eternal life with Christ by cross referencing a number of verses, including a verse in leading up to this verse...
1 John 2:25 - And this is the promise that He has promised us-- eternal life.
But I like what IKnowHim says too, she proves my point by saying that eternal destruction needs something else, another half, if you will, to make it assymetrical or symmetrical, balanced, whole, and, that other half, I feel, is eternal life.
And, no, I do not believe in salvation for all, but her last post first sentence speaks of the artistic completeness that I believe God paints the perfect picture of in the speaking of opposites....
In other words... people can either choose to abide in eternal life in Heaven or eternal destruction in Hell.
John 3:16 speaks of 'everlasting life' given all believers in Christ, and, to put my final period on this, we can look at the verse right before John 3:16.... 15 says ' That whoever believes in him should not perish but have...'
Have what?
eternal life .
----
Tommybo, I am thinking out loud that the word 'perish' needs to be gone through more, I looked at two definitions. 'Die' was a definition. 'Rot' was a definition. But so was another definition fascinating to me:
'to be near death with thirst'. And, one more def for us to ponder....
Suffering.
Having no 'eternal life in abiding in Him' is not to be taken in the literal, at least not the 'life' word, as I see it and I believe I can show scripture for this proof. tommybo, this is speaking of this murdering person not going to be going to Heaven for life everlasting. eternal life in 1 john 3:11 = everlasting life in Heaven , to equation my understanding
Now some scripture for importance and meaning for the word 'life' in a grand sense....
I am the way , the truth, and, the life, no man comes to the
Father but by me. The word 'life' refers to eternal life in Heaven.
This 'brother' and 'murdering' versse , as you listed, tommybo, from 1 John 3:15 (not 1 John 3:11 , as you listed, can be proven to mean eternal life with Christ by cross referencing a number of verses, including a verse in leading up to this verse...
1 John 2:25 - And this is the promise that He has promised us-- eternal life.
But I like what IKnowHim says too, she proves my point by saying that eternal destruction needs something else, another half, if you will, to make it assymetrical or symmetrical, balanced, whole, and, that other half, I feel, is eternal life.
And, no, I do not believe in salvation for all, but her last post first sentence speaks of the artistic completeness that I believe God paints the perfect picture of in the speaking of opposites....
In other words... people can either choose to abide in eternal life in Heaven or eternal destruction in Hell.
John 3:16 speaks of 'everlasting life' given all believers in Christ, and, to put my final period on this, we can look at the verse right before John 3:16.... 15 says ' That whoever believes in him should not perish but have...'
Have what?
eternal life .
----
Tommybo, I am thinking out loud that the word 'perish' needs to be gone through more, I looked at two definitions. 'Die' was a definition. 'Rot' was a definition. But so was another definition fascinating to me:
'to be near death with thirst'. And, one more def for us to ponder....
Suffering.
Last edited by a moderator:
T
I say it's out of your love for your fellow man beacause we were just as much the children of wrath (even as the rest) before God had mercy on us believers. How can we not love our fellow man??!!
But it is still God who shows mercy on those He wills to show mercy on. God is holy and perfect, we are not. God sees all of us as we truly are (spiritually dead and incapable of doing any good), we only see man from our own perspective. We are all dead in sin, and lost. None of us has the capacity to turn to God if God doesn't take the first step to open our eyes and heart.
It is because of the love God has shown toward me that I want everyone else to know the way of life too. I can truly tell others; "If God chose to save a sinner like me, then He can save you too. Don't delay to call on Him for His mercy."
But we can't just say love....love, and then forget the rest of what God tells us in His word. That is dishonoring to God and dangerous to us and our fellow man. If we truly love our fellow man, we will warn them to flee from the wrath to come by turning to the Lord Jesus Christ. But to tell them that Jesus came to save every individual without exception is not Biblical and it's wrong.
By your teaching, notorious mass murderers (not to mention every other unrepentant sinner) like Hitler, Stalin, and many more, can all go to heaven without ever showing the least interest in the Savior here in this life. It is by it's fruit that a tree is known. No one can live on in sin without any love for God and then expect to be saved after this life. There is one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ. If you call on people to be reconciled and forgiven by God through the Lord Jesus Christ alone, than you are doing God's will. If you persist in telling people that God loves everyone and will save everyone no matter what fruit they show in this life, you are propagating a lie.
Tom
But it is still God who shows mercy on those He wills to show mercy on. God is holy and perfect, we are not. God sees all of us as we truly are (spiritually dead and incapable of doing any good), we only see man from our own perspective. We are all dead in sin, and lost. None of us has the capacity to turn to God if God doesn't take the first step to open our eyes and heart.
It is because of the love God has shown toward me that I want everyone else to know the way of life too. I can truly tell others; "If God chose to save a sinner like me, then He can save you too. Don't delay to call on Him for His mercy."
But we can't just say love....love, and then forget the rest of what God tells us in His word. That is dishonoring to God and dangerous to us and our fellow man. If we truly love our fellow man, we will warn them to flee from the wrath to come by turning to the Lord Jesus Christ. But to tell them that Jesus came to save every individual without exception is not Biblical and it's wrong.
By your teaching, notorious mass murderers (not to mention every other unrepentant sinner) like Hitler, Stalin, and many more, can all go to heaven without ever showing the least interest in the Savior here in this life. It is by it's fruit that a tree is known. No one can live on in sin without any love for God and then expect to be saved after this life. There is one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ. If you call on people to be reconciled and forgiven by God through the Lord Jesus Christ alone, than you are doing God's will. If you persist in telling people that God loves everyone and will save everyone no matter what fruit they show in this life, you are propagating a lie.
Tom
Last edited:
No. I am not saying that. I plainly said that no man deserves salvation. But God has made salvation through Christ available to any man who will choose to believe.
And I think you are greatly mistaken in thinking that God is essentially the ultimate dictator who decides who will be saved and who won't. The bible plainly says He wants ALL men to be saved. He is not a respecter of persons.
God bless.
And I think you are greatly mistaken in thinking that God is essentially the ultimate dictator who decides who will be saved and who won't. The bible plainly says He wants ALL men to be saved. He is not a respecter of persons.
God bless.
shroom2,
This is a misunderstanding that you have of hell and it is this... that no one who has been a part of mankind since the beginning of man is in the paradise of the third heaven no in hell located in the center of the earth. In your understanding ALL that have died are in the grave and that includes all those that have been given God's righteousness and eternal life as a free gift of grace through Christ. To think that those who have been given these imputed gifts are in the grave with no life and from the beginning, all those that have been redeemed by God, are without the presence of God. How anyone can believe that God has forsaken His people when they die and leave them in the grave, both soul and body without God's presence and the joy of the Lord, is beyond baffling and enters into unbelief about everything that God has done to the human soul through redemption and God's great salvation provided by His Son. I say to you then, Let the dead bury the dead.
This is a misunderstanding that you have of hell and it is this... that no one who has been a part of mankind since the beginning of man is in the paradise of the third heaven no in hell located in the center of the earth. In your understanding ALL that have died are in the grave and that includes all those that have been given God's righteousness and eternal life as a free gift of grace through Christ. To think that those who have been given these imputed gifts are in the grave with no life and from the beginning, all those that have been redeemed by God, are without the presence of God. How anyone can believe that God has forsaken His people when they die and leave them in the grave, both soul and body without God's presence and the joy of the Lord, is beyond baffling and enters into unbelief about everything that God has done to the human soul through redemption and God's great salvation provided by His Son. I say to you then, Let the dead bury the dead.
T
The saved that die here on earth go to be with the Lord in their spirit essence. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paul said in Philippians 1:23 " I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better." Jesus said to the thief on the cross "Today you will be with me in paradise" Luke 23:43.
The saved will be joined to their ressurected bodies and will once again be a whole person, body and spirit, at the end of the age. Their bodies wil be fashioned after Christ's heavenly body. The unsaved will be ressurected in thier former bodies to stand judgment and then be destroyed both body and soul.
There are vast numbers of saved people in heaven waiting for the end to come and so be reunited with their glorified bodies.
God bless.
Tom
The saved will be joined to their ressurected bodies and will once again be a whole person, body and spirit, at the end of the age. Their bodies wil be fashioned after Christ's heavenly body. The unsaved will be ressurected in thier former bodies to stand judgment and then be destroyed both body and soul.
There are vast numbers of saved people in heaven waiting for the end to come and so be reunited with their glorified bodies.
God bless.
Tom
I
You see the truth but you do not embrace it. We love them because UNTIL GOD INTERVENED WE WERE AS THEY ARE!It is to God to give the increase of the seed of faith in every person. He has mercy on whom He wills, but who are they?
Romans 11:32
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Romans 11:32
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
T
Only the saved will put on incorruption, but then you knew that already. You just can't swallow it.
Acts 24:15 "having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust." It stands to reason that the unsaved will be resurrected in their former bodies to be judged, since the unsaved cannot put on immortality.
Once again, your teaching of universal salvation cannot be supported by the scriptures.
Please stop deceiving people and leading them to death.
Tom
Acts 24:15 "having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust." It stands to reason that the unsaved will be resurrected in their former bodies to be judged, since the unsaved cannot put on immortality.
Once again, your teaching of universal salvation cannot be supported by the scriptures.
Please stop deceiving people and leading them to death.
Tom
Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
This says ALL, Tom, must put on incorruption, and says ALL shall be changed.
Believers and Unbelievers alike.
Who has not borne the image of the Earthly? We All have.
Stop accusing, and Hear what the scriptures are saying, I'm not talking about TSOA, I'm talking about the Resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
This says ALL, Tom, must put on incorruption, and says ALL shall be changed.
Believers and Unbelievers alike.
Who has not borne the image of the Earthly? We All have.
Stop accusing, and Hear what the scriptures are saying, I'm not talking about TSOA, I'm talking about the Resurrection of the dead.