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Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
I was saved 12 years ago when I was 30 years old. I never believed in God growing up; I didn't understand how people could believe in something they couldn't see. My dad would ask me when I was younger if I had said my nightly prayers, and I thought, how can someone pray? It's like talking to yourself.
Anyway, a friend gave me one of those little pocket New Testaments and told me I should take a look at it. I was looking at a few verses, and I thought, how can I believe this? How on earth does a person believe this just by reading it? And that's when God spoke to my heart and showed me that it was real. That day, my eyes were finally opened to understand the scriptures. The Word became alive that day.
That day, it was like the earth shifted on its axis, a movement so slight that only I felt it, yet so intense it brought me to a new perspective of everything. The whole day was ethereal after that; everything was perfect. It was almost like a glimpse of heaven. And I could finally see beyond the facade of this world.....
Oops, I got so dreamy thinking about those first days that I think I slipped into a testimony! LOL.
I was saved 12 years ago when I was 30 years old. I never believed in God growing up; I didn't understand how people could believe in something they couldn't see. My dad would ask me when I was younger if I had said my nightly prayers, and I thought, how can someone pray? It's like talking to yourself.
Anyway, a friend gave me one of those little pocket New Testaments and told me I should take a look at it. I was looking at a few verses, and I thought, how can I believe this? How on earth does a person believe this just by reading it? And that's when God spoke to my heart and showed me that it was real. That day, my eyes were finally opened to understand the scriptures. The Word became alive that day.
That day, it was like the earth shifted on its axis, a movement so slight that only I felt it, yet so intense it brought me to a new perspective of everything. The whole day was ethereal after that; everything was perfect. It was almost like a glimpse of heaven. And I could finally see beyond the facade of this world.....
Oops, I got so dreamy thinking about those first days that I think I slipped into a testimony! LOL.
Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
I was 27, July 1985
However after a whirlwind 'education' of what Christianity is NOT, I stagnated for 12 years before coming into an understanding of who He really is, who I am in Him and what KINGDOM is all about!
Maggie[/quote
I was a couple of months old when I was water baptized. Upon being baptized my original sin was washed away, I died and was reborn into God's family as a Christian. Water Baptism is a Sacrament of Initiation.
All in Christ
However after a whirlwind 'education' of what Christianity is NOT, I stagnated for 12 years before coming into an understanding of who He really is, who I am in Him and what KINGDOM is all about!
Maggie[/quote
I was a couple of months old when I was water baptized. Upon being baptized my original sin was washed away, I died and was reborn into God's family as a Christian. Water Baptism is a Sacrament of Initiation.
All in Christ
F
Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
I think I was about 5 when I was saved. I was brought up in the doctrinal approach to Bible study - line by line, verse by verse, from the original languages taught by a pastor-teacher from Dallas Seminary. Only looking back is it now clear to me that we had an emphasis on gnosis "head" knowledge versus epignosis "heart" knowledge, although we thought we had a balance. We didn't. During late teens/early twenties I wanted enough God to be a good girl but not so much God as to not have fun. Again, that is clear to me now only looking back. The last eight or so years I can see that God has *finally* been able to burn away a lot of the chaff and get my eyes focused on him - through his grace and mercy to earnestly seek out his will and guidance. It is both humbling and amazing to know - for absolutely certain - that God's love to us endures forever!
I think I was about 5 when I was saved. I was brought up in the doctrinal approach to Bible study - line by line, verse by verse, from the original languages taught by a pastor-teacher from Dallas Seminary. Only looking back is it now clear to me that we had an emphasis on gnosis "head" knowledge versus epignosis "heart" knowledge, although we thought we had a balance. We didn't. During late teens/early twenties I wanted enough God to be a good girl but not so much God as to not have fun. Again, that is clear to me now only looking back. The last eight or so years I can see that God has *finally* been able to burn away a lot of the chaff and get my eyes focused on him - through his grace and mercy to earnestly seek out his will and guidance. It is both humbling and amazing to know - for absolutely certain - that God's love to us endures forever!
M
Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
Eric: Scripture tells us to "believe and be baptized". A baby does not have the cognitive ability to believe or not believe. Water baptism is an ACT of obedience that ONE DOES UPON believing. It is not something that is done TO a person. Re read the Gospels and see that never was an infant poured water over in any kind of Biblical baptism. Baptism is NOT salvation. Again, baptism is an ACT OF OBEDIENCE done by a believer...by one who is already saved. It matters not what you were taught by any church organization. It matters what God's Written Word says.
Maggie
Eric: Scripture tells us to "believe and be baptized". A baby does not have the cognitive ability to believe or not believe. Water baptism is an ACT of obedience that ONE DOES UPON believing. It is not something that is done TO a person. Re read the Gospels and see that never was an infant poured water over in any kind of Biblical baptism. Baptism is NOT salvation. Again, baptism is an ACT OF OBEDIENCE done by a believer...by one who is already saved. It matters not what you were taught by any church organization. It matters what God's Written Word says.
Maggie
K
Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
I was baptized as a baby into a religion. Growing up, I saw my siblings accept Jesus as their Savior. One by one, they left religion and got into a relationship with Him. It wasn't until I was in the army at Fort Hood, TX. In 1986, I got saved at the Black Horse Chapel. There was struggles and falls. I finally jumped into a relationship with both feet in 1996. My children have grown up in a Pentecostal church.
Loving every minute of it.
I was baptized as a baby into a religion. Growing up, I saw my siblings accept Jesus as their Savior. One by one, they left religion and got into a relationship with Him. It wasn't until I was in the army at Fort Hood, TX. In 1986, I got saved at the Black Horse Chapel. There was struggles and falls. I finally jumped into a relationship with both feet in 1996. My children have grown up in a Pentecostal church.
Loving every minute of it.
Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
Indeed, it does matter. You need to be less selective in what you read, and more discerning in your understanding:
Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.
There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.
1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.
And you need to pay heed to the Church which TEACHES, and which gave you that bible which you so paganly worship!
Go in Christ and Sin No More
Amen
Indeed, it does matter. You need to be less selective in what you read, and more discerning in your understanding:
Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.
There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.
1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.
And you need to pay heed to the Church which TEACHES, and which gave you that bible which you so paganly worship!
Go in Christ and Sin No More
Amen
M
Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
Indeed, it does matter. You need to be less selective in what you read, and more discerning in your understanding:
That makes no sense at all. To what are you referring?
Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation. It does not refer to water baptism it refers to the acceptance and application of His shed blood as atonement/payment for our sins. Once accepted and applied, we are clean before the Lord. It is His blood that washed white as snow, not water baptism.
There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit. There is not parrallel at all. John 3:5 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Born of water refers to the natural birth...in which the water breaks and one comes through the birth canal; born of the Spirit refers to the 'born again/born of God' experience that one chooses to do when they desire a relationship with Christ, the living God and Creator. and Titus 3:5 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; again, regeneration speaks of LIFE. LIFE is in the BLOOD. Regeneration of the SPIRIT occurs when the 'born again/ born of God' experience is done, upon request of the person, by God IN that person.
1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water. 1 Pet 3:21 "21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" Refusal to become baptized would show the condition of the heart. It would show that the person was not truly saved. It is the ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARD GOD. IF baptism alone saved, then even Mormons, JWs, and almost every cult member that every had water dumped over their head would 'save'. But that is NOT the case.
Col 2:11-12 "11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Circumsision made without hands refers to the circumcision of the HEART.Rom 2:29 "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." Like I said, it is a spiritual renewal, but it is NOT salvation.
And you need to pay heed to the Church which TEACHES, and which gave you that bible which you so paganly worship! Phenomenally rude! And wrong! Many churches (made up of people, BTW, do not teach Scriptural truth! The CHURCH did NOT give man the Bible, GOD DID by the pen of man and by Holy Spirit inspiration. WHY ARE YOU SO ANGRY? No true Christian worships the bible...how silly! We worship the GOD that wrote of Himself IN the Bible.
Maggie
Indeed, it does matter. You need to be less selective in what you read, and more discerning in your understanding:
That makes no sense at all. To what are you referring?
Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation. It does not refer to water baptism it refers to the acceptance and application of His shed blood as atonement/payment for our sins. Once accepted and applied, we are clean before the Lord. It is His blood that washed white as snow, not water baptism.
There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit. There is not parrallel at all. John 3:5 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Born of water refers to the natural birth...in which the water breaks and one comes through the birth canal; born of the Spirit refers to the 'born again/born of God' experience that one chooses to do when they desire a relationship with Christ, the living God and Creator. and Titus 3:5 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; again, regeneration speaks of LIFE. LIFE is in the BLOOD. Regeneration of the SPIRIT occurs when the 'born again/ born of God' experience is done, upon request of the person, by God IN that person.
1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water. 1 Pet 3:21 "21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" Refusal to become baptized would show the condition of the heart. It would show that the person was not truly saved. It is the ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARD GOD. IF baptism alone saved, then even Mormons, JWs, and almost every cult member that every had water dumped over their head would 'save'. But that is NOT the case.
Col 2:11-12 "11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Circumsision made without hands refers to the circumcision of the HEART.Rom 2:29 "But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." Like I said, it is a spiritual renewal, but it is NOT salvation.
And you need to pay heed to the Church which TEACHES, and which gave you that bible which you so paganly worship! Phenomenally rude! And wrong! Many churches (made up of people, BTW, do not teach Scriptural truth! The CHURCH did NOT give man the Bible, GOD DID by the pen of man and by Holy Spirit inspiration. WHY ARE YOU SO ANGRY? No true Christian worships the bible...how silly! We worship the GOD that wrote of Himself IN the Bible.
Maggie
Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
You seem to have set up your own doctrine and your own Church. You even have your very own hermeneutics! How cute. I just wish you would quit pretending to be christian.
Born Again in Water Baptism
John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.
John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).
John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.
John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.
Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.
Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.
Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.
Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.
Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.
2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them. Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.
Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic
Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.
Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.
Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.
Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”
John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.
Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?
Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?
Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.
Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.
Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.
Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.
1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.
Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.
Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.
Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.
There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.
Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.
Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).
Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.
Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise," He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.
Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).
Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death. 1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood
You seem to have set up your own doctrine and your own Church. You even have your very own hermeneutics! How cute. I just wish you would quit pretending to be christian.
Born Again in Water Baptism
John 1:32 - when Jesus was baptized, He was baptized in the water and the Spirit, which descended upon Him in the form of a dove. The Holy Spirit and water are required for baptism. Also, Jesus’ baptism was not the Christian baptism He later instituted. Jesus’ baptism was instead a royal anointing of the Son of David (Jesus) conferred by a Levite (John the Baptist) to reveal Christ to Israel, as it was foreshadowed in 1 Kings 1:39 when the Son of David (Solomon) was anointed by the Levitical priest Zadok. See John 1:31; cf. Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:21.
John 3:3,5 - Jesus says, "Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism (which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit).
John 3:22 - after teaching on baptism, John says Jesus and the disciples did what? They went into Judea where the disciples baptized. Jesus' teaching about being reborn by water and the Spirit is in the context of baptism.
John 4:1 - here is another reference to baptism which naturally flows from Jesus' baptismal teaching in John 3:3-5.
Acts 8:36 – the eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.
Acts 10:47 - Peter says "can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people..?" The Bible always links water and baptism.
Acts 22:16 – Ananias tells Saul, “arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.
Titus 3:5-6 – Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.
Heb. 10:22 – the author is also writing about water baptism in this verse. “Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.” Our bodies are washed with pure water in water baptism.
2 Kings 5:14 - Naaman dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, and his flesh was restored like that of a child. This foreshadows the regenerative function of baptism, by water and the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 44:3 - the Lord pours out His water and His Spirit. Water and the Spirit are linked to baptism. The Bible never separates them. Ezek. 36:25-27 - the Lord promises He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. Paul refers to this verse in Heb. 10:22. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian baptism instituted by Jesus and taught in John 3:5, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 22:16.
Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic
Matt. 28:19-20 - Jesus commands the apostles to baptize all people "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." Many Protestant churches are now teaching that baptism is only a symbolic ritual, and not what actually cleanses us from original sin. This belief contradicts Scripture and the 2,000 year-old teaching of the Church.
Acts 2:38 - Peter commands them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in order to be actually forgiven of sin, not just to partake of a symbolic ritual.
Matt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:38 - there is nothing in these passages or elsewhere in the Bible about baptism being symbolic. There is also nothing about just accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior in order to be saved.
Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required. This is because baptism is salvific, not just symbolic. The Greek text also does not mandate any specific order for belief and baptism, so the verse proves nothing about a “believer’s baptism.”
John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.” See, for example, John 3:31 where "anothen" is so used. Baptism brings about salvation, not just a symbolism of our salvation.
Acts 8:12-13; 36; 10:47 - if belief is all one needs to be saved, why is everyone instantly baptized after learning of Jesus?
Acts 16:15; 31-33; 18:8; 19:2,5 - these texts present more examples of people learning of Jesus, and then immediately being baptized. If accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is all one needs to do to be saved, then why does everyone in the early Church immediately seek baptism?
Acts 9:18 - Paul, even though he was directly chosen by Christ and immediately converted to Christianity, still had to be baptized to be forgiven his sin. This is a powerful text which demonstrates the salvific efficacy of water baptism, even for those who decide to give their lives to Christ.
Acts 22:16 - Ananias tells Paul, "arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins," even though Paul was converted directly by Jesus Christ. This proves that Paul's acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior was not enough to be forgiven of his sin and saved. The sacrament of baptism is required.
Acts 22:16 - further, Ananias' phrase "wash away" comes from the Greek word "apolouo." "Apolouo" means an actual cleansing which removes sin. It is not a symbolic covering up of sin. Even though Jesus chose Paul directly in a heavenly revelation, Paul had to be baptized to have his sins washed away.
Rom. 6:4 - in baptism, we actually die with Christ so that we, like Him, might be raised to newness of life. This means that, by virtue of our baptism, our sufferings are not in vain. They are joined to Christ and become efficacious for our salvation.
1 Cor. 6:11 - Paul says they were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, in reference to baptism. The “washing” of baptism gives birth to sanctification and justification, which proves baptism is not just symbolic.
Gal. 3:27 - whoever is baptized in Christ puts on Christ. Putting on Christ is not just symbolic. Christ actually dwells within our soul.
Col. 2:12 - in baptism, we literally die with Christ and are raised with Christ. It is a supernatural reality, not just a symbolic ritual. The Scriptures never refer to baptism as symbolic.
Titus 3:5-7 – “He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, so that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs of eternal life.” This is a powerful text which proves that baptism regenerates our souls and is thus salvific. The “washing of regeneration” “saves us.” Regeneration is never symbolic, and the phrase “saved us” refers to salvation. By baptism, we become justified by His grace (interior change) and heirs of eternal life (filial adoption). Because this refers to baptism, the verse is about the beginning of the life in Christ. No righteous deeds done before baptism could save us. Righteous deeds after baptism are necessary for our salvation.
There is also a definite parallel between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5: (1) John 3:5 – enter the kingdom of God / Titus 3:5 – He saved us. (2) John 3:5 – born of water / Titus 3:5 – washing. (3) John 3:5 – born of the Spirit / Titus 3:5 – renewal in the Spirit.
Heb. 10:22 - in baptism, our hearts are sprinkled clean from an evil conscience (again, dealing with the interior of the person) as our bodies are washed with pure water (the waters of baptism). Baptism regenerates us because it removes original sin, sanctifies our souls, and effects our adoption as sons and daughters in Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 3:21 - Peter expressly writes that “baptism, corresponding to Noah's ark, now saves you; not as a removal of dirt from the body, but for a clear conscience. “ Hence, the verse demonstrates that baptism is salvific (it saves us), and deals with the interior life of the person (purifying the conscience, like Heb. 10:22), and not the external life (removing dirt from the body). Many scholars believe the phrase "not as a removal of dirt from the body" is in reference to the Jewish ceremony of circumcision (but, at a minimum, shows that baptism is not about the exterior, but interior life). Baptism is now the “circumcision” of the new Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), but it, unlike the old circumcision, actually saves us, as Noah and his family were saved by water.
Again, notice the parallel between Heb. 10:22 and 1 Peter 3:21: (1) Heb. 10:22 – draw near to the sanctuary (heaven) / 1 Peter 3:21 – now saves us. (2) Heb. 10:22 – sprinkled clean, washed with pure water / 1 Peter 3:20-21 – saved through water, baptism. (3) Heb. 10:22 – from an evil conscience (interior) / 1 Peter 3:21 – for a clear conscience (interior). Titus 3:6 and 1 Peter 3:21 also specifically say the grace and power of baptism comes “through Jesus Christ” (who transforms our inner nature).
Mark 16:16 - Jesus says that he who believes and is baptized will be saved. However, the Church has always taught that baptism is a normative, not an absolute necessity. There are some exceptions to the rule because God is not bound by His sacraments.
Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise. It should also be noted that when Jesus uses the word "paradise," He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol" meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Hence, the good thief was destined for heaven because of his desire to be with Jesus.
Matt. 20:22-23; Mark 10:38-39; Luke 12:50 - there is also a baptism by blood. Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptized with" referring to His death. Hence, the Church has always taught that those martyred for the faith may be saved without water baptism (e.g., the Holy Innocents).
Mark 10:38 - Jesus says "are you able...to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?," referring to His death. 1 John 5:6 - Jesus came by water and blood. He was baptized by both water and blood. Martyrs are baptized by blood
G
Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
I became a christian when I was 13 years old. I was visiting my aunt and uncle in the summer in Toronto, Ontario. My uncle was at work and my aunt was talking to me about Jesus and asked if I would like to become a Christian and I said yes so she helped me pray and I accepted Jesus as my savior. Last summer when I was 23 we were camping and I wanted to be baptised for a couple of years so I told them I wanted to be baptised so they talked to the pastor where we were camping and I was baptised in the river on Aug 1st 2008 and after I was baptised I felt changed. There were 8 people in my group that watched me get baptised and I was told later that day that the # 8 is a lucky number in the bible and it means a new beginning.
I became a christian when I was 13 years old. I was visiting my aunt and uncle in the summer in Toronto, Ontario. My uncle was at work and my aunt was talking to me about Jesus and asked if I would like to become a Christian and I said yes so she helped me pray and I accepted Jesus as my savior. Last summer when I was 23 we were camping and I wanted to be baptised for a couple of years so I told them I wanted to be baptised so they talked to the pastor where we were camping and I was baptised in the river on Aug 1st 2008 and after I was baptised I felt changed. There were 8 people in my group that watched me get baptised and I was told later that day that the # 8 is a lucky number in the bible and it means a new beginning.
Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Recently I heard 2 fundamentalists discussing baptism on TV. They described a process that leads a person to salvation through the basic Christian truths taken from Paul’s epistle to the Romans.
The first verse is Romans 3:23, "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." After establishing that you are a sinner, in Romans 6:23 St. Paul reminds you that "the wages of sin is death." The second part of that verse gives the promise that "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:8 tells us that "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." Romans 10:13 says that "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved," and Romans 10:9 says that "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved."
I basicaly agreed with themon every point. But they stopped there? Why? Paul goes on to say just how this salvation happens. Paul gives us a way to know we really have been made one with Christ. Hopefully, anyone reading this agrees that salvation means we die with Christ so that we may have new life?
So, how does this happen?
Knowing a little about fundamentalist ideology, they believe you must accept Jesus. Believe in him in your heart and in words.
Apostolic Christians, like myself, believe that too. Butt there is more to it than that. In addition to believing and confessing with our lips, we need to be baptized. At the beginning of Romans 6, Paul actually explains how we share in the death and new life of Christ: It is through baptism."
The beginning of Romans 6 says, "Don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." This idea that we are made one with Christ through baptism is reiterated by Paul in Colossians 2:12, and in Galatians 3:27 he likens baptism to "being clothed with Christ."
Furthermore, the fuller idea of salvation being a union with Christ fits with much more of the New Testament, which speaks time and again of being in a profound union with the living Lord—rather than simply being saved or justified by a personal belief in Christ.
The sacrament of baptism takes the believer from the simple repentance, belief, and profession of faith into a more mysterious identification with Christ, in which he is the vine, and we are the branches, in which we die with him so that we might rise to new life. Baptism is not simply the addition of a meaningful symbol to the act of faith: It is an action which takes the believer’s whole body, soul, and spirit into a new relationship with God.
The passage in Romans 6 (backed up by Colossians 2) is not the only evidence from the New Testament that baptism is effective and therefore necessary for salvation. The apostles Peter and John confirm Paul’s teaching. In Acts 2, when Peter is preaching at Pentecost, his hearers ask what they must do to be saved, and he replies, "Repent and be baptized." In 1 Peter 3, Noah’s ark is referred to as a type of baptism, and Peter writes, "In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20-21).
The most famous New Testament evidence for the efficacy and necessity of baptism is in John’s Gospel. When Nicodemus comes to visit Jesus by night, Jesus says that a person cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born again. Nicodemus asks how a man might enter again into his mother’s womb and Jesus corrects him, saying, "No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5). From the earliest days of the Church this passage has been understood to refer to baptism, and this interpretation is virtually unanimous down through history.
However, many Evangelicals have a peculiar interpretation for this verse. They say that the "water" in the verse does not refer to baptism, but to the amniotic fluid of the mother’s womb. This is the "water" that breaks at the point of physical birth. Therefore they believe when Jesus refers to "water and the Spirit," he is referring to physical birth and spiritual re-birth. This might be a possible interpretation as the previous verse was a discussion of a man entering again into his mother’s womb.
However, one must look at the whole passage in its context. It is universally agreed that John’s Gospel is the most "sacramental" in its approach. The passages of Jesus’ life and teachings are put together in such a way as to connect with, and support, the sacramental life of the early Church. In the verses that immediately follow Jesus’ words that one must be "born again of water and the Spirit," Jesus talks about "men loving darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil" (verse 19) and that whoever "lives by the truth comes to the light" (verse 21). The references to light point to the other main symbol of the baptismal ceremony—the lighted candle. If there is any doubt, the very next story in John chapter 3 shows Jesus immediately going out with his disciples baptizing.
As soon as you begin to speak about the necessity of baptism, an Evangelical often pulls out some favorite verses and favorite arguments. They will go back to Romans 10:9-10, "If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." They will point out that this verse does not say that one must be baptized. The reply is that belief and profession of faith are necessary, but the whole witness of the New Testament shows us that baptism is necessary as well.
Evangelicals may also refer to the story of the Philippian jailer in Acts 16. The jailer cries out, "What must I do to be saved?" and Paul and Silas reply, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved—you and your household" (Acts 16:31). It seems there is no demand for baptism. However, actions speak louder than words because verse 33 says that "immediately they were baptized." Baptism therefore seems to be the way one makes the faith commitment. This is just one example from the Acts of the Apostles where faith is accompanied by baptism, and it is assumed that both are necessary. Two other clear accounts are Philip’s encounter with the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, and Peter’s immediate baptism of Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. The pattern in Acts is consistent: preaching, repentance of the hearers, belief in Christ, and immediate baptism. Why would this be the case if the apostles did not believe that baptism was both effective and necessary for salvation?
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
Recently I heard 2 fundamentalists discussing baptism on TV. They described a process that leads a person to salvation through the basic Christian truths taken from Paul’s epistle to the Romans.
The first verse is Romans 3:23, "for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." After establishing that you are a sinner, in Romans 6:23 St. Paul reminds you that "the wages of sin is death." The second part of that verse gives the promise that "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:8 tells us that "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." Romans 10:13 says that "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved," and Romans 10:9 says that "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved."
I basicaly agreed with themon every point. But they stopped there? Why? Paul goes on to say just how this salvation happens. Paul gives us a way to know we really have been made one with Christ. Hopefully, anyone reading this agrees that salvation means we die with Christ so that we may have new life?
So, how does this happen?
Knowing a little about fundamentalist ideology, they believe you must accept Jesus. Believe in him in your heart and in words.
Apostolic Christians, like myself, believe that too. Butt there is more to it than that. In addition to believing and confessing with our lips, we need to be baptized. At the beginning of Romans 6, Paul actually explains how we share in the death and new life of Christ: It is through baptism."
The beginning of Romans 6 says, "Don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." This idea that we are made one with Christ through baptism is reiterated by Paul in Colossians 2:12, and in Galatians 3:27 he likens baptism to "being clothed with Christ."
Furthermore, the fuller idea of salvation being a union with Christ fits with much more of the New Testament, which speaks time and again of being in a profound union with the living Lord—rather than simply being saved or justified by a personal belief in Christ.
The sacrament of baptism takes the believer from the simple repentance, belief, and profession of faith into a more mysterious identification with Christ, in which he is the vine, and we are the branches, in which we die with him so that we might rise to new life. Baptism is not simply the addition of a meaningful symbol to the act of faith: It is an action which takes the believer’s whole body, soul, and spirit into a new relationship with God.
The passage in Romans 6 (backed up by Colossians 2) is not the only evidence from the New Testament that baptism is effective and therefore necessary for salvation. The apostles Peter and John confirm Paul’s teaching. In Acts 2, when Peter is preaching at Pentecost, his hearers ask what they must do to be saved, and he replies, "Repent and be baptized." In 1 Peter 3, Noah’s ark is referred to as a type of baptism, and Peter writes, "In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20-21).
The most famous New Testament evidence for the efficacy and necessity of baptism is in John’s Gospel. When Nicodemus comes to visit Jesus by night, Jesus says that a person cannot enter the kingdom of God without being born again. Nicodemus asks how a man might enter again into his mother’s womb and Jesus corrects him, saying, "No one can enter the kingdom of heaven unless he is born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5). From the earliest days of the Church this passage has been understood to refer to baptism, and this interpretation is virtually unanimous down through history.
However, many Evangelicals have a peculiar interpretation for this verse. They say that the "water" in the verse does not refer to baptism, but to the amniotic fluid of the mother’s womb. This is the "water" that breaks at the point of physical birth. Therefore they believe when Jesus refers to "water and the Spirit," he is referring to physical birth and spiritual re-birth. This might be a possible interpretation as the previous verse was a discussion of a man entering again into his mother’s womb.
However, one must look at the whole passage in its context. It is universally agreed that John’s Gospel is the most "sacramental" in its approach. The passages of Jesus’ life and teachings are put together in such a way as to connect with, and support, the sacramental life of the early Church. In the verses that immediately follow Jesus’ words that one must be "born again of water and the Spirit," Jesus talks about "men loving darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil" (verse 19) and that whoever "lives by the truth comes to the light" (verse 21). The references to light point to the other main symbol of the baptismal ceremony—the lighted candle. If there is any doubt, the very next story in John chapter 3 shows Jesus immediately going out with his disciples baptizing.
As soon as you begin to speak about the necessity of baptism, an Evangelical often pulls out some favorite verses and favorite arguments. They will go back to Romans 10:9-10, "If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." They will point out that this verse does not say that one must be baptized. The reply is that belief and profession of faith are necessary, but the whole witness of the New Testament shows us that baptism is necessary as well.
Evangelicals may also refer to the story of the Philippian jailer in Acts 16. The jailer cries out, "What must I do to be saved?" and Paul and Silas reply, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved—you and your household" (Acts 16:31). It seems there is no demand for baptism. However, actions speak louder than words because verse 33 says that "immediately they were baptized." Baptism therefore seems to be the way one makes the faith commitment. This is just one example from the Acts of the Apostles where faith is accompanied by baptism, and it is assumed that both are necessary. Two other clear accounts are Philip’s encounter with the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, and Peter’s immediate baptism of Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. The pattern in Acts is consistent: preaching, repentance of the hearers, belief in Christ, and immediate baptism. Why would this be the case if the apostles did not believe that baptism was both effective and necessary for salvation?
Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
Irrelevant. Read and learn.
The issue of infant Baptism is not discussed explicitly in the Bible, but it is likely that there were babies in the households of Lydia, Stephanus and the jailer at Philippi, where Paul baptized entire families (Acts 16:14-15, Acts 16:29-34 and 1 Corinthians 1:16). In Colossians 2:11-12 Paul alludes to infant baptism when he tells us that Baptism has replaced circumcision. Circumcision took place on the eighth day after birth (Genesis 17:12). We know that early Christians baptized their infants on the eighth day after birth because the third Council of Carthage decreed in the year 252, "that baptism of children need not be deferred until the eighth day after birth as some maintained, but might be administered as soon as possible" (Cyprian, Epistle 64 (59), 2).
The Waldenses and the Cathari (around the 12th century) first raised objections to infant Baptism. Modern day objections can be traced to Thomas Munzer. In 1521, he deduced from his private interpretation of the Bible that Baptism should not be administered to infants but only to adults after conversion and a personal commitment to Christ. Even Martin Luther denounced him and he was expelled from Wittenberg.
The Holy Spirit is the dispenser of grace. At Baptism there is an infusion of grace. If the grace a baby receives at Baptism is nourished (in a Christian atmosphere) it grows; if not, it dies. The saving grace of God enables us to hear and accept the Gospel, not only as adults but also as children hearing it for the first time. That babies can benefit spiritually is clearly indicated in Luke 18:15-16: "Now they were bringing even infants to Him that He might touch them. And when the disciples saw it they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to Him saying, 'Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.'" Mark finishes the story in his account, "And He took them in His arms and blessed them, laying His hands upon them" (Mark 10:16).
Our personal commitment to Christ, once we have reached the age of reason, is our conscious decision to keep and maintain what God has already given us. Baptism doesn't guarantee one's salvation; rather one is saved as a result of responding positively to the grace received.
Irrelevant. Read and learn.
The issue of infant Baptism is not discussed explicitly in the Bible, but it is likely that there were babies in the households of Lydia, Stephanus and the jailer at Philippi, where Paul baptized entire families (Acts 16:14-15, Acts 16:29-34 and 1 Corinthians 1:16). In Colossians 2:11-12 Paul alludes to infant baptism when he tells us that Baptism has replaced circumcision. Circumcision took place on the eighth day after birth (Genesis 17:12). We know that early Christians baptized their infants on the eighth day after birth because the third Council of Carthage decreed in the year 252, "that baptism of children need not be deferred until the eighth day after birth as some maintained, but might be administered as soon as possible" (Cyprian, Epistle 64 (59), 2).
The Waldenses and the Cathari (around the 12th century) first raised objections to infant Baptism. Modern day objections can be traced to Thomas Munzer. In 1521, he deduced from his private interpretation of the Bible that Baptism should not be administered to infants but only to adults after conversion and a personal commitment to Christ. Even Martin Luther denounced him and he was expelled from Wittenberg.
The Holy Spirit is the dispenser of grace. At Baptism there is an infusion of grace. If the grace a baby receives at Baptism is nourished (in a Christian atmosphere) it grows; if not, it dies. The saving grace of God enables us to hear and accept the Gospel, not only as adults but also as children hearing it for the first time. That babies can benefit spiritually is clearly indicated in Luke 18:15-16: "Now they were bringing even infants to Him that He might touch them. And when the disciples saw it they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to Him saying, 'Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.'" Mark finishes the story in his account, "And He took them in His arms and blessed them, laying His hands upon them" (Mark 10:16).
Our personal commitment to Christ, once we have reached the age of reason, is our conscious decision to keep and maintain what God has already given us. Baptism doesn't guarantee one's salvation; rather one is saved as a result of responding positively to the grace received.
M
Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
Using words like "it is likely that there were babies in the households of Lydia, Stephanus and the jailer at Philippi" is ADDING TO THE WORD OF GOD to support one's own doctrine and belief system. God's word simply does not make that reference or indication. A Baby cannot be converted to anything; it cannot make a choice. Scientific and medical research proves that a child cannot even remember things that happened to them before the age of 4 or 5 because their brian is not developed fully with the capacity to do so.
"We know that early Christians baptized their infants on the eighth day after birth because the third Council of Carthage decreed in the year 252, "that baptism of children need not be deferred until the eighth day after birth as some maintained, but might be administered as soon as possible" (Cyprian, Epistle 64 (59), 2)." Is this a joke? You take references from books not in the Bible? That truly lessens your credibility, Eric. The rest of your above post is irrelevent because the BIBLE does not support infant baptism; there is NO reference to it at all.
Baptism doesn't guarantee one's salvation; rather one is saved as a result of responding positively to the grace received. Explain HOW a BABY can "responding positively to the grace received" when they are INCAPABLE of cognitive comphrehension with which to receive anything?
I was raised Catholic, but have discovered that the RCC is quite BIBLICALLY mistaken on a LOT of issues. Just because they are the oldest organized RELIGIOUS organization, Rome incorporating Christianity into their government in 200 for the sole purpose of control, does not make them Biblically sound or even correct. Even Satan believes that Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for the atonement of our sins and that He rose from the dead and is currently seated at the right hand of the Father. But his believing that will not get him into heaven will it? Likewise, although many in the RCC sincerely believe that the many traditions that they practice make them good Catholics, those practices will not afford them heaven either.
Children under the age of comprehension are sanctified by their parents. (1 Cor 714)
Maggie
Using words like "it is likely that there were babies in the households of Lydia, Stephanus and the jailer at Philippi" is ADDING TO THE WORD OF GOD to support one's own doctrine and belief system. God's word simply does not make that reference or indication. A Baby cannot be converted to anything; it cannot make a choice. Scientific and medical research proves that a child cannot even remember things that happened to them before the age of 4 or 5 because their brian is not developed fully with the capacity to do so.
"We know that early Christians baptized their infants on the eighth day after birth because the third Council of Carthage decreed in the year 252, "that baptism of children need not be deferred until the eighth day after birth as some maintained, but might be administered as soon as possible" (Cyprian, Epistle 64 (59), 2)." Is this a joke? You take references from books not in the Bible? That truly lessens your credibility, Eric. The rest of your above post is irrelevent because the BIBLE does not support infant baptism; there is NO reference to it at all.
Baptism doesn't guarantee one's salvation; rather one is saved as a result of responding positively to the grace received. Explain HOW a BABY can "responding positively to the grace received" when they are INCAPABLE of cognitive comphrehension with which to receive anything?
I was raised Catholic, but have discovered that the RCC is quite BIBLICALLY mistaken on a LOT of issues. Just because they are the oldest organized RELIGIOUS organization, Rome incorporating Christianity into their government in 200 for the sole purpose of control, does not make them Biblically sound or even correct. Even Satan believes that Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for the atonement of our sins and that He rose from the dead and is currently seated at the right hand of the Father. But his believing that will not get him into heaven will it? Likewise, although many in the RCC sincerely believe that the many traditions that they practice make them good Catholics, those practices will not afford them heaven either.
Children under the age of comprehension are sanctified by their parents. (1 Cor 714)
Maggie
Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
You are something else.
Quote: )." Is this a joke? You take references from books not in the Bible? That truly lessens your credibility, Eric.
No, your comment is the joke. The bible nowhere teaches that it is the sole rule of faith. Soooo,
here is a napkin to wipe the egg off your face. And Cyprian is an early Church Father. Whereas, you are .... what?
Since the Catholic Church, along with the Eastern Orthodox Church, wrote the bible, your comment about the Church being bibically wrong is .... a joke [to use your own word earlier].
Those Traditions you ridicule are Sacred Traditions passed on by the Apostles. They have equal Authority with written Tradition -- Scripture. Moreover, the bible itself says the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. It is guided by the Holy Spirit in teaching on matters of faith. As a "former" Catholic I would think you knew this? What's that-- you were throwing spitballs in your religious education class when they taught it? No wonder you are a protestant.
The baby responds to the grace received as the baby matures. Once confirmed in his faith by the Sacrament of Confirmation, he is on his own. That also should have been taught to a former Catholic like yourself.
Always in Christ
You are something else.
Quote: )." Is this a joke? You take references from books not in the Bible? That truly lessens your credibility, Eric.
No, your comment is the joke. The bible nowhere teaches that it is the sole rule of faith. Soooo,
here is a napkin to wipe the egg off your face. And Cyprian is an early Church Father. Whereas, you are .... what?
Since the Catholic Church, along with the Eastern Orthodox Church, wrote the bible, your comment about the Church being bibically wrong is .... a joke [to use your own word earlier].
Those Traditions you ridicule are Sacred Traditions passed on by the Apostles. They have equal Authority with written Tradition -- Scripture. Moreover, the bible itself says the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. It is guided by the Holy Spirit in teaching on matters of faith. As a "former" Catholic I would think you knew this? What's that-- you were throwing spitballs in your religious education class when they taught it? No wonder you are a protestant.
The baby responds to the grace received as the baby matures. Once confirmed in his faith by the Sacrament of Confirmation, he is on his own. That also should have been taught to a former Catholic like yourself.
Always in Christ
Re: How old were you when you became SAVED/accpeted Christ as your Lord & Savior??
No. It is not adding to the word of God, unless one is a fundamentalist. Logic enhances one's understanding of the Word of God. So, the probability that there were infants in the household, coupled with Sacred Tradition which has always taught Infant Baptism is Christian, and the fact that the Bible does not prohibit it, means the Church's position is on solid footing whereas you have no footing.
Seriously, if infant baptism was a no no, I would think the bible would mention that. You're trying to insert a prohibition into the bible, where none has ever existed, is ADDING TO THE WORD OF GOD! You are accusing me of something you are doing, and which I am not doing.
There really is no serious question about infant baptism except among heretics.
Enough said.
No. It is not adding to the word of God, unless one is a fundamentalist. Logic enhances one's understanding of the Word of God. So, the probability that there were infants in the household, coupled with Sacred Tradition which has always taught Infant Baptism is Christian, and the fact that the Bible does not prohibit it, means the Church's position is on solid footing whereas you have no footing.
Seriously, if infant baptism was a no no, I would think the bible would mention that. You're trying to insert a prohibition into the bible, where none has ever existed, is ADDING TO THE WORD OF GOD! You are accusing me of something you are doing, and which I am not doing.
There really is no serious question about infant baptism except among heretics.
Enough said.
- Status