The Elect?

[crissy17]

Seems like a copy pasta from this source... You should probably give credit if you're going to do that.





Also, the matter of "whosoever will" is a neutral one.

sorry.i forgot to posted the link!.

 

[Tombo]

Are some predestined to be saved and others to be lost and who are the elect? The answer is clear when it is recognized that the message of the gospel is one of “whosoever will.”However, in Romans 9-11 there are some statements that seem to imply that man’s free will is excluded in the matter of the believer’s salvation and that God in His choice of the elect exercises His divine sovereignty entirely apart from man’s volition.

It's not a matter of some being predestined to be lost. All mankind is lost already. It's a matter of God choosing those whom He wills to choose from among all of the lost in the world. He did this choosing before the world was ever made. God knew full well that Adam and Eve would disobey Him, that is why he already had a plan to save His chosen ones. That is why it's said that Jesus was slain from before the foundation of the world. He willed to save a people for Himself before He made the world. The Bible says that we are all in Adam, he is our federal head. That's why we are all born sinners, because Adam's fallen/sinful nature was passed on to us. Christ is the new Head/ new Adam of those who trust in Him alone for salvation.
Let us give all praise to God alone for so great a salvation!!!! The real reason that predestination and election is taught in the Bible, is to keep us in our place. When we realize that we were born dead in sins, and that God took all the steps necessary to save us, it removes all reasons for boasting. Anyone that teaches that we have the power to "choose" or to "accept" Christ has reason for boasting. For example, they can say "I heard the gospel being preached and believed, but the person next to me didn't", and can conclude from that that they were somehow better because they chose Christ while this other person didn't. I know most wouldn't put it that way, but it is the logical conclusion of such a position. If all are born spiritually dead (and the Bible is crystal clear that we are) then how can some have the ability to believe while others don't??? It can only be because God gave them the ability to believe.
Read Romans chapter 9 very carefully. It is very helpful on this subject.
God bless all here.

Tom

 

[tribesman]

Okay so the bible talk about the elect at various points, now what is this all about?
My view is that when we are judged, and then accepted into heaven we are part of the elect not that we are going to heaven or hell from the day we're born...

Could anyone shed some light on this for me please?

The choosing is done by God alone. It is not based on any foreseen merit (inclusive of foreknowledge of "choices" that men makes) in the chosen.

John.15

[16] Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Rom.9

[7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
[8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
[9] For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
[10] And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
[11] ( For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

 

[Matthew4Jesus]

Okay, now I am really confused... if we have no free will to follow Christ - which I am sure we do - then what's the point in Christ anyway? Because that would mean he never paid EVERYONE'S debt. Isn't the whole point of our saviour Jesus Christ dying for us in the first place to pay the price for ALL of our sins, and to teach us the way to live? Why teach us the way to live if we cannot choose the path of righteousness?

In fact just look at this scripture:
“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” —Matthew 6:33
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."-John11:25
“For He (God the Father) hath made Him (God the Son) to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” -2 Corinthians 5:21

How could you possibly seek something if you are either a permanent slave to one or the other?

I completely agree that we have NO choice as to whether we enter heaven or not, that's God decision, however, we can choose to live as best as we can according to scripture.

So actually in a way, we are... not pre-destined, but sort of are :L... however God knows all the choices we make which will determine where we're going from the day he created mankind. But just because he knows out choices it does not mean you're going to hell, period. OR vice-versa.

I know my all loving God wouldn't put people on earth without a chance. Although I very much understand your point of man's free will being.. somewhat weak. We must just choose to seek the Lord.

After remember: “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.'' - Matthew 7:13

 

[Kyouken]

Go to the subject's root, Matthew4Jesus.

Understand how the sovereignty of God works and you will begin to understand more than just this.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Okay, now I am really confused... if we have no free will to follow Christ -

We have a will, but it is not free. It is derivative of God's fore-ordaining.
An example of how that works, is in Isaiah 10:5-7.

which I am sure we do -

Prove it.

then what's the point in Christ anyway?

In the Ultimate case, the Glory of God.

In the Immediate, he ransomed the Sheep.

John 10
7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Because that would mean he never paid EVERYONE'S debt.

Jesus himself, states his intent.

"...and I lay down my life for the sheep."

The sheep, is referring to those that would be saved.

Isn't the whole point of our saviour Jesus Christ dying for us in the first place to pay the price for ALL of our sins, and to teach us the way to live?

That's one of the details.

The whole point, is God's great glory.
Ephesians 1

7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Why teach us the way to live if we cannot choose the path of righteousness?

If you are a Christian, and are regenerate, you can choose the path of righteousness.

The one who is unregenerate, cannot choose the path of righteousness.

Romans 8:7
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

That's why only God the father, can draw us to Christ.

John 6:44
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

In fact just look at this scripture:
“But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.” —Matthew 6:33
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live."-John11:25
“For He (God the Father) hath made Him (God the Son) to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” -2 Corinthians 5:21

How could you possibly seek something if you are either a permanent slave to one or the other?

The slave to righteousness has no "problem" here as you might think of it, as this is what they seek as a result of the grace of God that is oh so irresistible.

Also, check out Romans 9.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

I completely agree that we have NO choice as to whether we enter heaven or not, that's God decision, however, we can choose to live as best as we can according to scripture.

Those who are regenerate, yes. This isn't a "free" choice though. The one who is not regenerate, cannot "choose to live as best as we can according to scripture." This is because the mind of the unregenerate, is hostile to God. It hates God and his laws.

Romans 8:7
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

So actually in a way, we are... not pre-destined,

The bible says we are predestined.

Ephesians 1


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee[d] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,[e] to the praise of his glory.

but sort of are :L...

Not sort of, but rather, are.

however God knows all the choices we make which will determine where we're going from the day he created mankind. But just because he knows out choices it does not mean you're going to hell, period. OR vice-versa.

Yes and no.
If God knows the future, you can't change the future. If God knew from the beginning, you were going to hell. You can't change that, can ya'?

The plans of the heart belong to man,
but the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes,
but the Lord weighs the spirit.
3 Commit your work to the Lord,
and your plans will be established.
4 The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.
5 Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the Lord;
be assured, he will not go unpunished.
6 By steadfast love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for,
and by the fear of the Lord one turns away from evil.
7 When a man's ways please the Lord,
he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.
8 Better is a little with righteousness
than great revenues with injustice.
9 The heart of man plans his way,
but the Lord establishes his steps.

1 Peter 2:8

8 and

“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Jude 4
4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Romans 1:28
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.


Romans 9

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,


John 12:39-40
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”

Matthew 11:25
25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;

I know my all loving God wouldn't put people on earth without a chance.

See the above verses.

Secondarily, should we not let he who is love (1 John 4:8) define what love is? I think it rather unwise, to try and make God submit to our personal cultural ideas of what it means to love.

Third, ever considered the fact that there are many people who have never heard of Christ, and many who never will?

Do you think the Shang Civilization, "had a chance"?

Although I very much understand your point of man's free will being.. somewhat weak.

Before regeneration, it isn't just "Weak in desire for the Lord", but also, "strong in hatred against the Lord"

We must just choose to seek the Lord.

Sure, we do choose. This choice is not "free" though. It is derivative upon God.

 

[Matthew4Jesus]

So some are born without the chance of going to heaven no matter what they do... oh great...

 

[jimmydiggs]

So some are born without the chance of going to heaven no matter what they do... oh great...

It's not a "no matter what they do" situation, because they refuse to.

See Romans 8:7.

 

[2knowhim]

So some are born without the chance of going to heaven no matter what they do... oh great...

NO, that is not true, much less TRUTH.

Christ died for The Sin of the whole world, Will He not get what He paid for?

If not in this life, in the one to come.

As in Adam All die, so in Christ shall All be made Alive.-------"Quickened"1Co 15:22


Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Blessings

 

[jimmydiggs]

NO, that is not true, much less TRUTH.

Christ died for The Sin of the whole world, Will He not get what He paid for?

If not in this life, in the one to come.

In John 10, Jesus says he lays his life down for the sheep. Not everyone are his sheep.

As in Adam All die, so in Christ shall All be made Alive.-------"Quickened"1Co 15:22

The second all, is in reference to those who are in Christ.

Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Blessings

Not everyone will be going to heaven.

 

[Matthew4Jesus]

So you are saying that someone has no choice as to whether or not they follow the Lord?

Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. -John15 13-14

 

[djness]

Read the bible, Ephesians 1 is especially helpful.


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.


Could just be that you don't like the whole idea, and thus mock it.

I know we are just things to God to be done with as He pleases.
But if God really loved , He would never have created.

Since He knew before He created who would be in heaven and who would be in hell, He could have saved us all the trouble and just created directly into heaven or hell those that He determined belong there. Why even have this meaningless life process?

Isn't that the end result of non will predestination?

 

[2knowhim]

In John 10, Jesus says he lays his life down for the sheep. Not everyone are his sheep. Not everyone in every age, but will be eventually.


The second all, is in reference to those who are in Christ. No, no, It say IN Christ All, not All in Christ. The same All that is spoken of in Adam, is the Same All spoken of IN Christ.


Not everyone will be going to heaven.

The scriptures never say anyone is "Going to Heaven"



He is The Saviour of The World, Especially to those that believe.

Unbelievers, and Believers, both are mentioned here and here.

For God was in Christ Reconciling the World unto Himself not imputing their sins unto them.

 

[jimmydiggs]

So you are saying that someone has no choice as to whether or not they follow the Lord?

Depends on what you mean by choose.

It's not a "free" choice, if that's what you mean.

Romans 8:7
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Prior to regeneration, man cannot submit to God's law.

After regeneration, man is a slave of righteousness.

Romans 6
But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. -John15 13-14

True dat.

 

[jimmydiggs]

The scriptures never say anyone is "Going to Heaven"



He is The Saviour of The World, Especially to those that believe.

Unbelievers, and Believers, both are mentioned here and here.

For God was in Christ Reconciling the World unto Himself not imputing their sins unto them.

I'd love to respond to your post, but I must go, and probably won't be back on CC until late this evening at best.

 

[Tombo]

I'd love to respond to your post, but I must go, and probably won't be back on CC until late this evening at best.

jimmydiggs, save yourt breath. I (and many others) have shown the error of universal salvation to 2knowhim many, many times. She is hardened if this falsehood. It's best to just leave it alone and pray for God to open her eyes.
God bless!!!!

Tom

 

[2knowhim]

jimmydiggs, save yourt breath. I (and many others) have shown the error of universal salvation to 2knowhim many, many times. She is hardened if this falsehood. It's best to just leave it alone and pray for God to open her eyes.
God bless!!!!

Tom

Should I listen to man Tom, or God?

 

[shroom2]

Should I listen to man Tom, or God?

You should listen to God through His Word, which is NOT teaching you that all will be saved. It is also NOT teaching the Calvinist doctrine.

It DOES teach that the will of God is for all men to be saved, and that He has made salvation available to any person who will choose to believe. It is up to each individual person to choose to accept Christ, or not.

Universal salvation is false, as is Calvinism / predestination.

 

[Tombo]

You should listen to God through His Word, which is NOT teaching you that all will be saved. It is also NOT teaching the Calvinist doctrine.

It DOES teach that the will of God is for all men to be saved, and that He has made salvation available to any person who will choose to believe. It is up to each individual person to choose to accept Christ, or not.

Universal salvation is false, as is Calvinism / predestination.

shroom2 doesn't believe Jesus is God, so he is no better than any other false teacher. I pray for you both.

Tom

 

[2knowhim]

shroom2 doesn't believe Jesus is God, so he is no better than any other false teacher. I pray for you both.

Tom

Why did He make Vessels of dishonor?