The Elect?

[Matthew4Jesus]

What IS the truth then?
I am just not sure that's all. I just don't understand - if what I am being told is correct - God chooses for people to sin all their life and go to hell.
Is someone's refusal really behind the will of God?
2 Peter 3:9 'The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.''
Scripture here states that God doesn't wish for any of us to perish.

 

[Israel]

What IS the truth then?
I am just not sure that's all. I just don't understand - if what I am being told is correct - God chooses for people to sin all their life and go to hell.
Is someone's refusal really behind the will of God?
2 Peter 3:9 'The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.''
Scripture here states that God doesn't wish for any of us to perish.

There is only one truth. All will be saved by the blood of the Lamb. God foreknew Moses as well as Pharaoh.

 

[shroom2]

shroom2 doesn't believe Jesus is God, so he is no better than any other false teacher.

Tombo believes God determines who is saved and who isn't, so he is no better than any other false teacher.



Do you like reading that, Tom? Neither do I, when it's directed at me. I am not intentionally a false teacher, and I don't believe you intentionally are either. We disagree on some things. Both of us cannot be right, it's true.

I love God, and His son Jesus Christ. He is my savior. Because of what he did for me, I have eternal life. I am a Christian. Jesus Christ's God is my God. If you would like to PM me and convince me that the trinity is true, feel free. If you can convince me from the bible, I will change my belief.

Think about what you are saying before you click 'submit'. Words affect people. We should be able to discuss things on this forum without calling each other "false teachers".

 

[shroom2]

What IS the truth then?
I am just not sure that's all. I just don't understand - if what I am being told is correct - God chooses for people to sin all their life and go to hell.
Is someone's refusal really behind the will of God?
2 Peter 3:9 'The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.''
Scripture here states that God doesn't wish for any of us to perish.

You are right!!!

He loves all people and through Christ He made salvation available to anyone who will choose to believe.

Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[2knowhim]

You are right!!!

He loves all people and through Christ He made salvation available to anyone who will choose to believe.

Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Shroom, fallen man does not have that capability and you know it.

Father has to draw them first, it is He who saves, not the person saving themselves.


Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Tombo]

Tombo believes God determines who is saved and who isn't, so he is no better than any other false teacher.



Do you like reading that, Tom? Neither do I, when it's directed at me. I am not intentionally a false teacher, and I don't believe you intentionally are either. We disagree on some things. Both of us cannot be right, it's true.

I love God, and His son Jesus Christ. He is my savior. Because of what he did for me, I have eternal life. I am a Christian. Jesus Christ's God is my God. If you would like to PM me and convince me that the trinity is true, feel free. If you can convince me from the bible, I will change my belief.

Think about what you are saying before you click 'submit'. Words affect people. We should be able to discuss things on this forum without calling each other "false teachers".

If Jesus was not God, then how, in any way, is he qualified to make payment for our sins??? Just as man could not pay for his own sins, another created being could not take our sins upon him. Just who or what do you think Jesus is? In what way (in your mind) is He the son of God? And how did God create Him? It's the same as when a man has a son. Do you think a man's son is less human than his father??? Is he not exactly the same (in his essence, namely, human) as his father??? If you don't believe that Jesus is God then you have no savior. You are worshipping a creature rather than the creator, as it says in Romans 1. I don't think even the universalists hold to the blasphemous teaching that you do.
I asked you to read John chapter one, but you refuse. After your answer about the question of the thief on the cross, I don't think it's possible to reason with you. I can show you verses in Isaiah, the psalms, and all through the new testamnet, but I think I would be beating the air.
I truly hope God opens your eyes to see the truth and that you stop teaching such a terrible thing. We can disagree on many things, but the divinity of Christ is not one of them. I don't care what you hold about anything else, if you don't hold to that truth, you are lost.

Tom

 

[2knowhim]

If Jesus was not God, then how, in any way, is he qualified to make payment for our sins??? Just as man could not pay for his own sins, another created being could not take our sins upon him. Just who or what do you think Jesus is? In what way (in your mind) is He the son of God? And how did God create Him? It's the same as when a man has a son. Do you think a man's son is less human than his father??? Is he not exactly the same (in his essence, namely, human) as his father??? If you don't believe that Jesus is God then you have no savior. You are worshipping a creature rather than the creator, as it says in Romans 1. I don't think even the universalists hold to the blasphemous teaching that you do.
I asked you to read John chapter one, but you refuse. After your answer about the question of the thief on the cross, I don't think it's possible to reason with you. I can show you verses in Isaiah, the psalms, and all through the new testamnet, but I think I would be beating the air.
I truly hope God opens your eyes to see the truth and that you stop teaching such a terrible thing. We can disagree on many things, but the divinity of Christ is not one of them. I don't care what you hold about anything else, if you don't hold to that truth, you are lost.

Tom

That is a mighty big Judgement Tom, I would rethink that if I were you.


Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Peter was Blessed when he called Him, The Son, and The Christ.
Why would you condemn someone today who believes the same thing?

 

[Tombo]

That is a mighty big Judgement Tom, I would rethink that if I were you.


Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Peter was Blessed when he called Him, The Son, and The Christ.
Why would you condemn someone today who believes the same thing?

Ah, so you too deny Jesus' deity. I thought so.

Tom

 

[AnandaHya]

What IS the truth then?
I am just not sure that's all. I just don't understand - if what I am being told is correct - God chooses for people to sin all their life and go to hell.
Is someone's refusal really behind the will of God?
2 Peter 3:9 'The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.''
Scripture here states that God doesn't wish for any of us to perish.

James 1
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjRiNL1HKns&feature=related[/video]

Evil tempts the human flesh but God has enabled our minds the wisdom to discern between good and evil. He has given us a NEW Spirit and written His laws in our hearts if we are truly born again children of God whose spirits are able with the Holy Spirit to cry forth ABBA ,Father!

God created the world but not all in the world are His children.Jesus told us that:

John 8
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Does He create people and tempt them to do EVIL? NO.

someone asked about the vessels of wrath.

I say even God's wrath is more merciful then worldly love.

Take Esau how did he live his life and how did he die? Or Ishmael.

those verse are taken out of context. they refer to the fact that the MESSIAH, Christ Jesus would be born of ONE human lineage and it is NOT Esau or Ishmael, but that does not mean that God made evil plans concerning them or tempted them to do evil any more then he enticed Cain to slew Able.

the Universalist doctrine (that all will be saved even those who don't believe in Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior) is a deception but that is another issue entirely.

Jeremiah 6:13-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 “Because from the least of them even to the greatest of them,
Everyone is given to covetousness;
And from the prophet even to the priest,
Everyone deals falsely.
14 They have also healed the hurt of My people slightly,
Saying, ‘Peace, peace!’
When there is no peace.
15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination?
No! They were not at all ashamed;
Nor did they know how to blush.
Therefore they shall fall among those who fall;
At the time I punish them,
They shall be cast down,” says the Lord.

 

[JS]

A listing of ELECT in the KJV.

ISA 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul
delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the
Gentiles.

ISA 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called
thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

ISA 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an
inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants
shall dwell there.

ISA 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and
another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine
elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

MAT 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall
shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall
deceive the very elect.

MAT 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they
shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to
the other.

MAR 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs
and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

MAR 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his
elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost
part of heaven.

LUK 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto
him, though he bear long with them?

ROM 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that
justifieth.

COL 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of
mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1TI 5:21 I charge [thee] before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect
angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another,
doing nothing by partiality.

TIT 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the
faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after
godliness;

1PE 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through
sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of
Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1PE 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a
chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be
confounded.

2JO 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the
truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

2JO 1:13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

These verses on ELECTION could be related as well.

ROM 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to
the election of grace.
ROM 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no
more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is
no more work.
ROM 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the
election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
ROM 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber,
eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this
day.

I hope this helps.

May the Lord bless your study,

J

 

[shroom2]

If Jesus was not God, then how, in any way, is he qualified to make payment for our sins???

He is THE SON OF GOD and he lived a sinless life, always doing his Father's will, then he gave his life as the sacrifice for sin for you and me.

Just as man could not pay for his own sins, another created being could not take our sins upon him. Just who or what do you think Jesus is?

Again, he is the only begotten Son of God.

In what way (in your mind) is He the son of God? And how did God create Him?

God miraculously put the sperm in Mary which fertilized one of her eggs. God is literally his Father. Jesus Christ is the ONLY man born this way. He is the only begotten Son of God.

It's the same as when a man has a son.

Because every other man is descended from Adam, every other man was born dead in sin. Because God is Christ's father, he was NOT born dead in sin. And he chose to live a sinless life, always doing his Father's will.

Do you think a man's son is less human than his father??? Is he not exactly the same (in his essence, namely, human) as his father???

Jesus' father is God. Jesus Christ is called the "second man" (1 Cor 15:47). The first man, Adam, also had every opportunity to live sinlessly. He was not born with a sinful nature. But he sinned, and because he did, all men are born dead in sin Rom (5:12). Since God is his father, Jesus Christ likewise was not born with a sinful nature. And he lived sinlessly, then gave his life as a sacrifice for all.

If you don't believe that Jesus is God then you have no savior.

That statement is not true.

You are worshipping a creature rather than the creator, as it says in Romans 1. I don't think even the universalists hold to the blasphemous teaching that you do.

No, I worship the creator, God. It is through God's incredible plan that Jesus Christ came into the world.

1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I asked you to read John chapter one, but you refuse.

No, I did not refuse. In fact I read it again. John 1 does not say that Jesus is God. You were taught the trinity, and that John 1 "proves" Jesus is God, so you read into it meaning that is not there.

After your answer about the question of the thief on the cross,

It's the truth. Jesus Christ died, and was buried in the tomb for three days and three nights. Then God, his Father, raised him from the dead. Nobody went to paradise the day Christ died. The thief will be raised at the resurrection of the just.

I don't think it's possible to reason with you.

Maybe you can't. I do understand that since Christianity today is so indoctrinated into believing God is a trinity and that Jesus is God, the very thought that he might not be is complete heresy. If this fits you (and it fits most) then we probably cannot have a reasonable discussion about it. You'll be convinced I'm a heretic and false teacher no matter what I say or what scripture I show you to back up why I believe as I do.

I can show you verses in Isaiah, the psalms, and all through the new testamnet, but I think I would be beating the air.

I can show you many verses in the OT and NT that plainly state he is a man, and show the reasons why he had to be a man to be the Messiah, but you would probably not hear.

I truly hope God opens your eyes to see the truth and that you stop teaching such a terrible thing. We can disagree on many things, but the divinity of Christ is not one of them. I don't care what you hold about anything else, if you don't hold to that truth, you are lost.

I have asked you before to please show me a verse that says if a person does not believe Jesus Christ is God, he is lost. I'm still waiting.

Only God is God. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah, the promised seed.

God bless.

 

[Tombo]

So you are still saying that Jesus was a created being? If God is His father (and it no where says that God implanted sperm into Mary, you are thinking in physical terms) then Jesus is of the same exact substance as the Father. Jesus was the only begotten in the sense of being given a human body and nature, not His divine soul. He was always with the Father from all eternity. Jesus, at the end of Matthew said to "baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

John 1:1-5 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."
How am I misreading these verses???!!!

Even the Jewish rulers knew who Jesus was claiming to be. John 5:18 "This is why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the sabbath, but He was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." Did the apostle John correct this misunderstsanding (as he could have easily done since he was writing in hindsight) of the Jews? The answer is a resounding NO!!!!

John 8:57-59 " So the Jews said to him. "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." So they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. The Jews knew He was claiming to be the great I AM (God) of Exodus. Again, John could have corected this "misunderstanding" of the Jews in his gospel account, but he didn't.

John 14:8-9 "Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to Him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the father?"

John 20:28 ""Thomas answered Him, My Lord and my God!" Did Jesus say to Thomas "don't say such things, Thomas." ??? Again, NO. Jesus accepted worship as is appropriate for God.

Matthew 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call His name Immanuel" (which means, God with us).

Colossians 2: 9-10 " For in Him (Jesus) the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in Him, who is the head of all rule and authority."

Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father,Prince of Peace."

I admit that the truth of a triune God is difficult for many to grasp. How can God be one God in three persons? One in substance, but three in persons? Not three Gods, but one God in three distinct persons? I can't explain it, but it is clearly taught in the scriptures.

Even at the beginning, in Genesis 1:28 :Then God said, "Let Us make man in our image, after Our likeness." Who are the "Us" and "Our"?

I could go on, but I think this is enough proof to show that Jesus is very God of very God. If you deny it, you do it at your own peril. If Jesus is not God, you have no savior. If that sounds blunt I'm sorry, but it's true. No created being could take away sins.
Mark 2:5-7 "...He said to the paralytic, Son, your sins are forgiven." Now some of the scribes were sitting there , questioning in their hearts, "Why does this man speak like that? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" The scribes were right to accuse Jesus of blasphemey IF HE WERE ONLY A CREATED BEING, A MERE MAN ALONE. But if He is God (and He is) then He is within His right to forgives us.
God bless you, shroom2, I hope and pray that you can see these things. The only reason I sound hard is because I don't want others to be led astray as to who Jesus truly is. When I hear falseness being spoken against or about God, I must speak up. No God, no Savior.

Tom

 

[2knowhim]

So Tom,

Are you saying that we cannot forgive sins?

Are you saying that The Father does not dwell in you?

If The Father dwells in you, and your able to forgive someone of their sins,
Does that make you God?

 

[resurrection33]

Okay so the bible talk about the elect at various points, now what is this all about?
My view is that when we are judged, and then accepted into heaven we are part of the elect not that we are going to heaven or hell from the day we're born...

Could anyone shed some light on this for me please?

We are all elect if we are honestly trying to do the Lord’s will.