The dead are asleep

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C

cfultz3

Guest
#121
#121
Laodicea said:
That makes it easier, to understand the soul go to this link
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/38496-what-spirit-soul-2.html#post663558

If we are asleep then that explains that verse but, if people go to be with Christ at death then it makes the Bible to contradict itself. The Bible says the dead are asleep and when Jesus returns He will wake them up. I hope this answers your questions or at least part of it.
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So, no one will be with Jesus at His coming?
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#122
#122
shroom2 said:
Tom, I think exactly the same about you.


Those things are true.


No, I really mean vision. Please don't tell me what I mean.


Was Peter having a hallucination when he saw the sheet descending with all the unclean animals in Acts 10? Or do believe it was really there? It was a vision, as the transfiguration was a vision.


Do you mean aside from the fact that the bible plainly says Moses is dead (Josh 1:2)? The purpose was to strengthen Jesus, to give him a vision of what things would be like for him if he stuck with God's plan. Jesus Christ personally DID NOT WANT to die. He prayed three times to God NOT to have to go through with what he knew was coming. But thankfully, he did his Father's will.


"My" position does not say Jesus was wrong, no matter how many times you say it.


We've been through this.


And we've been through this. His primary concern was for the furtherance of the gospel, whether through his death, or his life. But what he really wanted was for Christ to return so he would depart this life and be with Christ.


I strongly disagree. The recipients would not be reading an English translation done by people who believed that death isn't death, and translated it accordingly. They would have read the Greek, and fully understood what he meant.


It's admirable that you are standing up for what you believe. But it is not the truth. Dead people are dead, and will require a resurrection from the dead to be made alive again.


I am a true believer in the Lord Jesus Christ and saved. Your insinuation that I am not is wrong, not necessary, or appreciated.

Jesus is in fact the only begotten Son of God.
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Only God can forgive sins. If Jesus is not God than it follows He cannot forgive sins. If He cannot forgive sins, you are still in your sins and unsaved.
You may not appreciate it, but I warn you for your own good.

Tom
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#123
#123
cfultz3 said:
So, no one will be with Jesus at His coming?
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The dead are asleep and when Jesus returns He will wake them and they will always be with Him
John 14:1-3
(1) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
(2) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
(3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#124
#124
Laodicea said:
That makes it easier, to understand the soul go to this link
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/38496-what-spirit-soul-2.html#post663558

If we are asleep then that explains that verse but, if people go to be with Christ at death then it makes the Bible to contradict itself. The Bible says the dead are asleep and when Jesus returns He will wake them up. I hope this answers your questions or at least part of it.
Click to expand...
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

If we are asleep at His coming and the hope of Paul, he being an apostle taught by Christ Himself, were to see those he wrote to to be" in the presence of our Lord Jesus Chrsit at His coming", then how can this contradiction be reconciled?

When Jesus comes, are we awakened and given new bodies then? If so, where are our souls until then? Are we still liable to spiritual death brough on my sin?


BTW, thank you for answering my question. I seek only the Truth.
 
S

shroom2

Banned
#125
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
0
#125
Tombo said:
Only God can forgive sins. If Jesus is not God than it follows He cannot forgive sins. If He cannot forgive sins, you are still in your sins and unsaved.
You may not appreciate it, but I warn you for your own good.

Tom
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You honestly haven't got a clue, Tom.

John 5:22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#126
#126
shroom2 said:
You honestly haven't got a clue, Tom.

John 5:22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
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John 1:1 "In the beginnig was the Word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God."
The Word came and dwelt with us.
So actually I do have a clue.
Jesus not Got= no Savior.

Tom
 
S

shroom2

Banned
#127
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
0
#127
Tombo said:
John 1:1 "In the beginnig was the Word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God."
The Word came and dwelt with us.
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Yes. The word of God, the logos, was made flesh. Jesus Christ was the logos in the flesh. Jesus Christ made known God. He always did his fathers will. Want to know God? Get to know Jesus.

But He is not God.

So actually I do have a clue.
Jesus not God= no Savior. (fixed your typo..)

Tom
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Actually, if Jesus is God, you have no savior. Jesus Christ had to die to be the payment for sin. God cannot die. ...but you don't believe he actually died, anyway. Only his "body" died. Right?

Tom, do you believe God raised Jesus Christ from the dead?
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#128
#128
How many Lords are there?
 
peacefulbeliever

peacefulbeliever

Senior Member
#129
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
#129
cfultz3 said:
So, no one will be with Jesus at His coming?
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cfultz - Christ's second coming (parousia) has two phases:

1) His return for the Church, the Body which is called the "gathering together" and is recorded in 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15:51-54. When you read in Thess 4 - we meet Christ in the air.
2) His return with His Church. When Christ returns with his gathered saints, then the resurrection of the just and the unjust will occur. The book of Revelation - Christ appearing with his saints will occur on the earth.
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#130
#130
shroom2 said:
Yes. The word of God, the logos, was made flesh. Jesus Christ was the logos in the flesh. Jesus Christ made known God. He always did his fathers will. Want to know God? Get to know Jesus.

But He is not God.


Actually, if Jesus is God, you have no savior. Jesus Christ had to die to be the payment for sin. God cannot die. ...but you don't believe he actually died, anyway. Only his "body" died. Right?

Tom, do you believe God raised Jesus Christ from the dead?
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Jesus said he had power to lay down His own life and to take it up again. Just as He was about to die, He said, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit." So yes, he died physically, not spirtiually. And yes, I believe that God raised Jesus' body from the dead.
"Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holty Spirit." God is triune in nature. You may not understand it, or want to accept it, but you are lost without believing Jesus, God the Son, came to take your sins away. If He were just a created being, how could He take sins away. You don't understand that a Father and Son are one, of the same nature and esssence. Would you consider your son to be less than you??? God cannot create a God, that is impossible, so Jesus, the Son of God, had to have always existed with the Father. And the above quote from Matthew shows that the Holy Spirit also always existed within the Godhead.
This is the truth. I pray that you see it one day.

Tom
 
peacefulbeliever

peacefulbeliever

Senior Member
#131
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
#131
cfultz3 said:
1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
If we are asleep at His coming and the hope of Paul, he being an apostle taught by Christ Himself, were to see those he wrote to to be" in the presence of our Lord Jesus Chrsit at His coming", then how can this contradiction be reconciled?
Click to expand...
We will appear (be in his presence) when the dead in Christ rise and those that are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:16,17
When Jesus comes, are we awakened and given new bodies then? If so, where are our souls until then? Are we still liable to spiritual death brough on my sin?

BTW, thank you for answering my question. I seek only the Truth.
Click to expand...

Those that have died will put on incorruption and those that are alive will put on immortality. From the time we die until Christ comes to gather us together - we will not have known how much time elapsed because the next thing we know will we will be in the presence of the Lord 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

God bless.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#132
#132
peacefulbeliever said:
cfultz - Christ's second coming (parousia) has two phases:

1) His return for the Church, the Body which is called the "gathering together" and is recorded in 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15:51-54. When you read in Thess 4 - we meet Christ in the air.
2) His return with His Church. When Christ returns with his gathered saints, then the resurrection of the just and the unjust will occur. The book of Revelation - Christ appearing with his saints will occur on the earth.
Click to expand...
So if we are quickened in Christ, do we also die a spirtual dead which was brought on my sin? - Eph 2:5

Does my life which is hidden in Christ have to leave Him and go to Hades until He comes again? - Col 3:3

I am trying to understand why I will have to die a spiritual death, when I am told that I am not of the dead, but of the living.

Does not the dead go to Hades?
 
S

shroom2

Banned
#133
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
0
#133
Tombo said:
Jesus said he had power to lay down His own life and to take it up again. Just as He was about to die, He said, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit." So yes, he died physically, not spirtiually. And yes, I believe that God raised Jesus' body from the dead.
"Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holty Spirit." God is triune in nature. You may not understand it, or want to accept it, but you are lost without believing Jesus, God the Son, came to take your sins away. If He were just a created being, how could He take sins away. You don't understand that a Father and Son are one, of the same nature and esssence. Would you consider your son to be less than you??? God cannot create a God, that is impossible, so Jesus, the Son of God, had to have always existed with the Father. And the above quote from Matthew shows that the Holy Spirit also always existed within the Godhead.
This is the truth. I pray that you see it one day.

Tom
Click to expand...
God raised Jesus Christ from the dead.

This is the truth. I really pray that you see it one day.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#134
#134
peacefulbeliever said:
We will appear (be in his presence) when the dead in Christ rise and those that are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:16,17
Click to expand...
Is this not talking about those souls which are with Christ, of which souls will be given new bodies when their body that lies in the tombs will be called forward?

peacefulbeliever said:
Those that have died will put on incorruption and those that are alive will put on immortality. From the time we die until Christ comes to gather us together - we will not have known how much time elapsed because the next thing we know will we will be in the presence of the Lord 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.

God bless.
Click to expand...
So, where do we go until He comes back?
 
T

Tombo

Guest
#135
#135
shroom2 said:
God raised Jesus Christ from the dead.

This is the truth. I really pray that you see it one day.
Click to expand...
Shroom, I know you have contrived an eschatology wherein there are several resurrections at different times. So it doesn't surprise me that you can't distinguish between the saved dead and the unsaved dead. I don't know all that you hold to, but I know enough.

Tom
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#136
#136
cfultz3 said:
So if we are quickened in Christ, do we also die a spirtual dead which was brought on my sin? - Eph 2:5

Does my life which is hidden in Christ have to leave Him and go to Hades until He comes again? - Col 3:3

I am trying to understand why I will have to die a spiritual death, when I am told that I am not of the dead, but of the living.

Does not the dead go to Hades?
Click to expand...
Remember the Bible says that they are asleep
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/38967-dead-asleep.html#post662275

What does it mean that they are asleep?
 
peacefulbeliever

peacefulbeliever

Senior Member
#137
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
#137
Tombo said:
Jesus said he had power to lay down His own life and to take it up again. Just as He was about to die, He said, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit." So yes, he died physically, not spirtiually. And yes, I believe that God raised Jesus' body from the dead.
"Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holty Spirit." God is triune in nature. You may not understand it, or want to accept it, but you are lost without believing Jesus, God the Son, came to take your sins away. If He were just a created being, how could He take sins away. You don't understand that a Father and Son are one, of the same nature and esssence. Would you consider your son to be less than you??? God cannot create a God, that is impossible, so Jesus, the Son of God, had to have always existed with the Father. And the above quote from Matthew shows that the Holy Spirit also always existed within the Godhead.
This is the truth. I pray that you see it one day.

Tom
Click to expand...
God - as Jesus' Father - gave him all authority and power to do everything that He (God) does. He healed, he forgave sins, he walked on water, he changed water into wine because he did the works of the Father and he had the authority given to him by his Father.
Jesus had to be the "second Adam" in all ways; the only difference being that he always did the Father's will and remained perfect. He is our example - If Jesus was God - how in the world could we live up to that? But being the second Adam - actually being tempted in all things as we are but without sin that is an example to us that we can live holy. The first Adam messed up everything by sinning - the second Adam - Jesus Christ - fixed everything by being perfect.

No - we are lost by not believing in the Son of God - not God the Son. To me believing that Jesus is God is saying that God came in the flesh and not Jesus Christ -

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16, 18


 
peacefulbeliever

peacefulbeliever

Senior Member
#138
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
#138
cfultz3 said:
Is this not talking about those souls which are with Christ, of which souls will be given new bodies when their body that lies in the tombs will be called forward?

So, where do we go until He comes back?
Click to expand...
We are in the graves asleep until he comes back - God never meant for His word to be hard- He meant for it to be simple. When you go to sleep at night (no dreams) you don't remember anything until the morning right? that's how it will be.
 
L

Laodicea

Guest
#139
#139
peacefulbeliever said:
God - as Jesus' Father - gave him all authority and power to do everything that He (God) does. He healed, he forgave sins, he walked on water, he changed water into wine because he did the works of the Father and he had the authority given to him by his Father.
Jesus had to be the "second Adam" in all ways; the only difference being that he always did the Father's will and remained perfect. He is our example - If Jesus was God - how in the world could we live up to that? But being the second Adam - actually being tempted in all things as we are but without sin that is an example to us that we can live holy. The first Adam messed up everything by sinning - the second Adam - Jesus Christ - fixed everything by being perfect.

No - we are lost by not believing in the Son of God - not God the Son. To me believing that Jesus is God is saying that God came in the flesh and not Jesus Christ -

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16, 18
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Jesus is God, but He did not use His own power in overcoming or He could not be our example. Jesus used the power of the word as in Matthew 4, He spent sometimes all night in prayer, He was fully surrendered to His Father that is how He overcame. Jesus is God but, He humbled himself.
 
S

shroom2

Banned
#140
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
0
#140
Tombo said:
Shroom, I know you have contrived an eschatology wherein there are several resurrections at different times. So it doesn't surprise me that you can't distinguish between the saved dead and the unsaved dead. I don't know all that you hold to, but I know enough.

Tom
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What I have "contrived" comes from the Word of God.

Jesus Christ was raised from the dead by God three days after he was crucified. He is the firstfruits.

GOD'S WORD teaches that there are three more times people will be raised from the dead to everlasting life. The rapture, for Christians, then the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust. That's it.
 
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