The dead are asleep

[krisbrian]

John 3:13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus could be talking about no man hath ascended by his own power.

Or Jesus could be talking about how no man has ever been to heaven and known the mysteries of heaven and then come down to talk about it.

Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

 

[shroom2]

So, Jesus, who was a man like us, did not go to Hades? Will you explain to me why He said, "You (God) will not leave my soul in Hades"? Why did He say to the thief on the cross, "You will be with me in Paradise today"? The theif did not go either?

You can read back in this thread and get answers to these questions. But basically:

Jesus did go to hades. Hades is the grave. Jesus died. Three days later God raised him.

The thief died that day as well. He is still dead. As Jesus promised him that day, he will be resurrected at the resurrection of the just.

Sorry about all the questions, but I am confused because it "seems" people are saying that the Bible teaches that we die and await for Jesus second coming. That is, He forsakes us in Hades even if for a second until He returns. And yet, others are saying that He would never forsake us and that we will be with Him at His return to receive our bodies.

Dead believers are dead, but they are not forsaken. God promises us that they will be raised.

So, are we dead or with Him?

When we die, we are dead. We have the promise that we will be raised.

 

[shroom2]

Jesus could be talking about no man hath ascended by his own power.

Or Jesus could be talking about how no man has ever been to heaven and known the mysteries of heaven and then come down to talk about it.

Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Or, it could mean what it says, that no man has ascended into heaven except Christ.

 

[krisbrian]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The word "have" is present tense when it says "have everlasting life". That means you have everlasting life NOW, if you believe.

Everlasting
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Everlasting
G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, NEVER TO CEASE, everlasting

What Jesus says supersedes everyones opinion.

 

[shroom2]

What Jesus says supersedes everyones opinion.

John, writing by revelation from God, says:

John 3:13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Whether you believe it was Jesus speaking, or John (I believe it was John), God's word says " no man hath ascended up to heaven".

 

[cfultz3]

You can read back in this thread and get answers to these questions. But basically:

Jesus did go to hades. Hades is the grave. Jesus died. Three days later God raised him.

The thief died that day as well. He is still dead. As Jesus promised him that day, he will be resurrected at the resurrection of the just.


Dead believers are dead, but they are not forsaken. God promises us that they will be raised.


When we die, we are dead. We have the promise that we will be raised.

So, Jesus, while He was dead, did not preach the Gospel to the dead? - 1Pet 4:6
And if He did, does that not mean that those who were in Hades, could at least hear, and think?
I thought the promise Jesus made was that He would be with Him in paradise that day?
But if the thief was merely dead, what was the purpose of the promise Jesus made to him?
If we are in Hades even for one second, does that negate that He would never leave us?


I am sorry to ask you all of these questions, I am just trying to figure out why it is said that we are alive in Jesus, but yet we must die. I am trying to understand why, while in Christ, we must spirtually die? Why are we are given an adverse sentence of death, while Jesus says that we hav passed from death into Life?

 

[shroom2]

So, Jesus, while He was dead, did not preach the Gospel to the dead? - 1Pet 4:6

Why do you assume it's talking about something Jesus did while he was dead?

And if He did, does that not mean that those who were in Hades, could at least hear, and think?

Jesus did nothing while he was in the grave. He was dead.

I thought the promise Jesus made was that He would be with Him in paradise that day?

No. Again, as was mentioned before, the comma is in the wrong place. Jesus died that day, and was dead for three days and three nights.

But if the thief was merely dead, what was the purpose of the promise Jesus made to him?

Jesus promised him that when the millennial kingdom starts the thief will be there.

If we are in Hades even for one second, does that negate that He would never leave us?

No. Dead believers are not forsaken or forgotten. They will be raised.

I am sorry to ask you all of these questions, I am just trying to figure out why it is said that we are alive in Jesus, but yet we must die. I am trying to understand why, while in Christ, we must spirtually die? Why are we are given an adverse sentence of death, while Jesus says that we hav passed from death into Life?

All men will die (except those who are alive when Christ returns).
Heb 9:27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

We have the promise of God through Christ that we will live again.

 

[cfultz3]

Why do you assume it's talking about something Jesus did while he was dead?
When did He go there?

Jesus did nothing while he was in the grave. He was dead.
The righest dead never did hear the gospel?

No. Again, as was mentioned before, the comma is in the wrong place. Jesus died that day, and was dead for three days and three nights.
When did He go there?

Jesus promised him that when the millennial kingdom starts the thief will be there.
Not to disagree with you but I think I will stick to what Jesus said on this.

No. Dead believers are not forsaken or forgotten. They will be raised.
So do we go to Hades, the abode of the dead, when we die?

All men will die (except those who are alive when Christ returns).
Heb 9:27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So the physical body dies, agreed. But those in Christ also have to spiritually die?

We have the promise of God through Christ that we will live again

 

[shroom2]

Why do you assume it's talking about something Jesus did while he was dead?
When did He go there?

Where?

Jesus did nothing while he was in the grave. He was dead.
The righest dead never did hear the gospel?

The righteous dead are believers that have died.

No. Again, as was mentioned before, the comma is in the wrong place. Jesus died that day, and was dead for three days and three nights.
When did He go there?

When did who go where?

Jesus promised him that when the millennial kingdom starts the thief will be there.
Not to disagree with you but I think I will stick to what Jesus said on this.

Again, the translators added the comma in the wrong place.
Jesus told him "verily I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise". Jesus and the thief died that day, and paradise is still future.

No. Dead believers are not forsaken or forgotten. They will be raised.
So do we go to Hades, the abode of the dead, when we die?

Again, hades is simply the grave. It's where the dead are. They are dead.

All men will die (except those who are alive when Christ returns).
Heb 9:27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So the physical body dies, agreed. But those in Christ also have to spiritually die?

People die. They don't split apart. Death is not a "separation". Believers die, they will be raised.

We have the promise of God through Christ that we will live again.

 

[cfultz3]

Enough with your twisted tongue. You simply deny direct quotes. You simply disqualify common sense. You imply, no, say, that Jesus's death was just that, death. You deny the righteous dead of the OT their Messiah, even though presented to you was that they rose from the grave (OT Hades) when Jesus rose. You say that the dead are dead and they know nothing, so then it is implied you say that Jesus preached the Gospel to thin air. Your words inply that Jesius is a liar, when all in all, He says, "You did not leave my soul in Hades", either we have a soul or we do not. You even imply that God is a liar even when He says that the spirit returns back to Him, by you stating that there is no soul for a man.

I have had my full of you, now I vomit you out.

 

[shroom2]

Enough with your twisted tongue. You simply deny direct quotes. You simply disqualify common sense. You imply, no, say, that Jesus's death was just that, death. You deny the righteous dead of the OT their Messiah, even though presented to you was that they rose from the grave (OT Hades) when Jesus rose. You say that the dead are dead and they know nothing, so then it is implied you say that Jesus preached the Gospel to thin air. Your words inply that Jesius is a liar, when all in all, He says, "You did not leave my soul in Hades", either we have a soul or we do not. You even imply that God is a liar even when He says that the spirit returns back to Him, by you stating that there is no soul for a man.

I have had my full of you, now I vomit you out.

I was wondering how long it would be before your true colors came out and you launched your attack.

Your claim that you were sorry for all the questions was simply deception. You were trying to catch me in my words. You failed, so you lash out.

God bless.

 

[cfultz3]

Would you kindly read my signature. Certainly I was sorry that questions had to be asked for Truth to come out. I am also sorry that it was not benefitual to you. But for those who will read, at least they will understand the error of thinking in that manner.

As for me failing, if one soul can be saved from the lie, then I have done well.

 

[Red33]

I was wondering how long it would be before your true colors came out and you launched your attack.

Your claim that you were sorry for all the questions was simply deception. You were trying to catch me in my words. You failed, so you lash out.

God bless.

Shroom2, you have a very deceitful heart and I hope that others mark it down.

 

[Tombo]

I was wondering how long it would be before your true colors came out and you launched your attack.

Your claim that you were sorry for all the questions was simply deception. You were trying to catch me in my words. You failed, so you lash out.

God bless.

I'd be careful saying that if I were you shroom2. After all you posted the following about me yesterday when I said 2knowhim wasn't a Christian:

You'd better be damned sure you are right on that extremely judgmental statement, Tom....

Here's a clue. You haven't got a clue.

Un-frigging-believeable.

2knowhim, pay no attention to that pompous pharisaic ass.

Is that your true colors, shroom2??? I just think you got frustrated with me, the same as others are with you here. Everyone loses their temper, but that doesn't mean they had an ulterior motive to stab you in the back!!!!
It is frustrating to see you twist the scriptures, dodge the scriptures, move commas around, ignore clear scriptures, reinterpret scruiptures the way you do.
Very sad indeed.
I encourage the others here standing for the truth to keep fighting the good fight, you have the truth on your side, brothers and sisters.

Tom

 

[cfultz3]

Until the saints come marching in

 

[shroom2]

Shroom2, you have a very deceitful heart and I hope that others mark it down.

Why do you say that? What makes what I did deceitful?

cfults asked the same questions over and over again. I answered him. Then he lashed out. If anything, I believe he was being deceitful.

And if he was genuinely asking, why the sudden change of attitude, where he "vomits me out of his mouth"?

I was not being deceitful at all.

 

[krisbrian]

Be cool my babies

 

[shroom2]

I'd be careful saying that if I were you shroom2. After all you posted the following about me yesterday when I said 2knowhim wasn't a Christian:

You'd better be damned sure you are right on that extremely judgmental statement, Tom....

Here's a clue. You haven't got a clue.

Un-frigging-believeable.

2knowhim, pay no attention to that pompous pharisaic ass.

Is that your true colors, shroom2??? I just think you got frustrated with me,

I was not frustrated with you at all. I could not believe you had the nerve to say someone who loves God and Jesus Christ was not a Christian. It's not your call to make. As you know, I disagree with much of what 2knowhim believes, but I'm not willing to sit in judgment of her and tell her she's not Christian.

the same as others are with you here. Everyone loses their temper, but that doesn't mean they had an ulterior motive to stab you in the back!!!!

cfultz, if you were genuinely asking because you were seeking information, I do apologize. But again, I find it odd that your attitude changed so suddenly and you "vomited me out".

It is frustrating to see you twist the scriptures, dodge the scriptures, move commas around, ignore clear scriptures, reinterpret scruiptures the way you do.

I do not twist or dodge or ignore. I stand behind what I believe the bible says.

I find it sad that you hold the error you have been taught over the truth.

Very sad indeed.
I encourage the others here standing for the truth to keep fighting the good fight, you have the truth on your side, brothers and sisters.

Tom

Concerning the identity of Jesus Christ, and what happens to the dead, you do not have the truth.

God bless.

 

[Tombo]

I was not frustrated with you at all. I could not believe you had the nerve to say someone who loves God and Jesus Christ was not a Christian. It's not your call to make. As you know, I disagree with much of what 2knowhim believes, but I'm not willing to sit in judgment of her and tell her she's not Christian.


cfultz, if you were genuinely asking because you were seeking information, I do apologize. But again, I find it odd that your attitude changed so suddenly and you "vomited me out".


I do not twist or dodge or ignore. I stand behind what I believe the bible says.

I find it sad that you hold the error you have been taught over the truth.


Concerning the identity of Jesus Christ, and what happens to the dead, you do not have the truth.

God bless.

You weren't frustrated with me at all??? Come on shroom, no one uses the language you did in a happy manner!!!! Be truthful.

Tom

 

[Laodicea]

This thread is about the dead being asleep so let us please keep it to that and find out what the Bible means by saying the dead are asleep without bringing our own opinions, But using Bible texts for our opinions.

1 Kings 2:10
(10) So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
Genesis 19:4
(4) But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
Joshua 2:1
(1) And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house, named Rahab, and lodged there.
Job 11:18
(18) And thou shalt be secure, because there is hope; yea, thou shalt dig about thee, and thou shalt take thy rest in safety.
2 Samuel 8:2
(2) And he smote Moab, and measured them with a line, casting them down to the ground; even with two lines measured he to put to death, and with one full line to keep alive. And so the Moabites became David's servants, and brought gifts.
Job 3:13
(13) For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
Job 38:37
(37) Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
Proverbs 6:9
(9) How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? when wilt thou arise out of thy sleep?

All the words in red in these verses are all translated from the same word, so according to all this what does it mean when the Bible talks about sleep in death?

From this we see that to sleep in death means to lie down, take rest, lie still. When a person is asleep with no dreams what do they know?
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

If anyone wants to talk about the spirit there is another thread for that. What does the Bible mean when it says the dead are asleep and please use the Bible for your opinions.

God Bless