Im just curious but how come protestants like baptist think if they get baptized they automatically go to heaven no matter what they do? Also how come some of these evangelical nutjobs think you can only go to heaven if you can verbally speak to jesus christ and actually be friends with him? Its like do you guys think that unless you can have a drink with jesus and shoot darts with him youll only go to heaven. Thats just absurd I dont see where it makes it seem like that in the bible. Seems like you evangelicals want to make it seem like its impossible to go to heaven just so you can brag about how you think youre the only ones going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell. Also you guys keep bashing us catholics if we werent around you other denominations wouldnt exist, or anyone wouldnt have united to defend europe against muslim threat. I see all the good catholics do for the world with their good deeds that you guys act like is wrong but how are good deeds wrong? You catholic haters are just scaring people away from the Christian faith. I always hear about these Christians converting to Muslims and Buddhist because narrow minded nutjobs scare them away. lol
Catholic Heresy (for the record)
- Thread starter RoboOp
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Sins must be expiated (atoned for). This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments....[In] purgatory the souls of those...“who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions” are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt. (V2IDchp1:2, 3)
[W]e are able through Jesus Christ to make satisfaction to God the Father not only by punishments voluntarily undertaken by ourselves to atone for sins or by those imposed by the judgment of the priest according to the measure of our offense, but also...by the temporal afflictions imposed by God [on the sinner].... (CoT14Schp9)
They [i.e., the saints] have carried their crosses to make expiation for their own sins and the sins of others. They were convinced that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God who is the Father of mercies….Indeed, the prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that it could be asserted that the penitent was washed, cleansed and redeemed with the help of the entire Christian people.... (V2IDchp2:5, 3:6)
From the most ancient times in the Church good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners, particularly the works [i.e., sufferings and miseries] which human weakness finds hard. (V2IDchp3:6)
The Christian [read Roman Catholic] faithful...are bound by Christian obedience to follow what the sacred pastors...declare as teachers of the faith or determine as leaders of the Church. (Code of Canon Law - Canon 212-1)
This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and that one sincerely adhere to decisions made by him.... (Vatican II Lumen Gentium 25)
[The Bishops when] assembled in an ecumenical council, they are, for the universal Church, teachers of and judges in matters of faith and morals, whose decisions must be adhered to with the loyal and obedient assent of faith....[When] the Roman Pontiff, or the body of bishops together with him, define a doctrine, they make the definition in conformity with revelation itself, to which all are bound to adhere and to which they are obliged to submit.... (Vatican II Lumen Gentium 25C2)
My understand is that refusal to submit is a mortal sin.
According to the infallible Council of Trent—6th Session, Canon 9:
If anyone says that...the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification..., let him be anathema.
6th Session, Canon 12:
If anyone shall say that... justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone by which we are justified: let him be anathema.
6th Session, Canon 30:
If anyone says that...after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.
Here is one more from the Council of Trent....7th Session, Canon 4:
If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law [canons and decrees of the Church] are not necessary for salvation but...without them...men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification...let him be anathema.
Doesn't "anathema" here mean excommunicated? That is to say, condemned to hell?
I don't post this to be argumentative, or insulting to Catholics. Far from it !But isn't this the official teaching of this church?
I don't understand how these things can be reconciled with the Word. If someone can enlighten me...?
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2 KJV
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4 KJV
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2 KJV
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3 KJV
I do not know, so I ask if it's possible there are parishes that teach things different from one another? Does the country in which a member of the Cathoilc Chruch make a difference?
Respectfully, and in full knowledge that the Lord loves His children,
~ellie
[W]e are able through Jesus Christ to make satisfaction to God the Father not only by punishments voluntarily undertaken by ourselves to atone for sins or by those imposed by the judgment of the priest according to the measure of our offense, but also...by the temporal afflictions imposed by God [on the sinner].... (CoT14Schp9)
They [i.e., the saints] have carried their crosses to make expiation for their own sins and the sins of others. They were convinced that they could help their brothers to obtain salvation from God who is the Father of mercies….Indeed, the prayers and good works of holy people were regarded as of such great value that it could be asserted that the penitent was washed, cleansed and redeemed with the help of the entire Christian people.... (V2IDchp2:5, 3:6)
From the most ancient times in the Church good works were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners, particularly the works [i.e., sufferings and miseries] which human weakness finds hard. (V2IDchp3:6)
The Christian [read Roman Catholic] faithful...are bound by Christian obedience to follow what the sacred pastors...declare as teachers of the faith or determine as leaders of the Church. (Code of Canon Law - Canon 212-1)
This loyal submission of the will and intellect must be given, in a special way, to the authentic teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, even when he does not speak ex cathedra in such wise, indeed, that his supreme teaching authority be acknowledged with respect, and that one sincerely adhere to decisions made by him.... (Vatican II Lumen Gentium 25)
[The Bishops when] assembled in an ecumenical council, they are, for the universal Church, teachers of and judges in matters of faith and morals, whose decisions must be adhered to with the loyal and obedient assent of faith....[When] the Roman Pontiff, or the body of bishops together with him, define a doctrine, they make the definition in conformity with revelation itself, to which all are bound to adhere and to which they are obliged to submit.... (Vatican II Lumen Gentium 25C2)
My understand is that refusal to submit is a mortal sin.
According to the infallible Council of Trent—6th Session, Canon 9:
If anyone says that...the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification..., let him be anathema.
6th Session, Canon 12:
If anyone shall say that... justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone by which we are justified: let him be anathema.
6th Session, Canon 30:
If anyone says that...after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.
Here is one more from the Council of Trent....7th Session, Canon 4:
If anyone says that the sacraments of the New Law [canons and decrees of the Church] are not necessary for salvation but...without them...men obtain from God through faith alone the grace of justification...let him be anathema.
Doesn't "anathema" here mean excommunicated? That is to say, condemned to hell?
I don't post this to be argumentative, or insulting to Catholics. Far from it !But isn't this the official teaching of this church?
I don't understand how these things can be reconciled with the Word. If someone can enlighten me...?
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2 KJV
10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4 KJV
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2 KJV
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3 KJV
I do not know, so I ask if it's possible there are parishes that teach things different from one another? Does the country in which a member of the Cathoilc Chruch make a difference?
Respectfully, and in full knowledge that the Lord loves His children,
~ellie
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Psychomom, It means that faith is useless without love. And love encompasses working for the Spirit, not just saying 'Oh I'm saved because I have faith, yay, let me sit back and watch TV. I'm going to heaven'.
What do the Catholic bashers actually hope to achieve by this thread? Let's look at motive:
To show the 'truth' and help people to expose and realise their false doctrine and go to heaven instead of Hell?
This is hilarious. Do you honestly believe people who have faith in a 2000 year old religion, will convert to your version of Christianity after being harassed, bullied and blatantly attacked for their beliefs??
It says a lot about the methods by which you intend to 'save' others. You all act like the end justifies the means, when that's never the case. Like all those extreme right wing Christian parties burning Koran's and filling the internet and social media with blatant religious hatred and sectarianism to the point where it actually becomes blind to any form of understanding.
One cannot simply throw and hurl accusations and doctrine at someone and expect them to welcome you with open arms. It's like the teacher who strangles his student to get him to be quiet.
Clearly people in here have too much time on their hands that might be better spent actually helping people instead of pretending to, hiding behind some phoney excuse that it's in the Catholic people's best interests to attack them, all the while continuing to barrage these people with things that they honestly do not want to hear.
It's actually quite laughable to see some of the ways in which the Catholic peoples words have been manufactured in this thread to solidify a biased and assuming viewpoint, when they have had clear and concise answers for you ever time, that actually explain their practices in a just way so that you may understand, they believe the same thing you do, and have just interpreted it in another manner. The bible often has room for this, because of its occasionally not-black-and-white nature.
What do the Catholic bashers actually hope to achieve by this thread? Let's look at motive:
To show the 'truth' and help people to expose and realise their false doctrine and go to heaven instead of Hell?
This is hilarious. Do you honestly believe people who have faith in a 2000 year old religion, will convert to your version of Christianity after being harassed, bullied and blatantly attacked for their beliefs??
It says a lot about the methods by which you intend to 'save' others. You all act like the end justifies the means, when that's never the case. Like all those extreme right wing Christian parties burning Koran's and filling the internet and social media with blatant religious hatred and sectarianism to the point where it actually becomes blind to any form of understanding.
One cannot simply throw and hurl accusations and doctrine at someone and expect them to welcome you with open arms. It's like the teacher who strangles his student to get him to be quiet.
Clearly people in here have too much time on their hands that might be better spent actually helping people instead of pretending to, hiding behind some phoney excuse that it's in the Catholic people's best interests to attack them, all the while continuing to barrage these people with things that they honestly do not want to hear.
It's actually quite laughable to see some of the ways in which the Catholic peoples words have been manufactured in this thread to solidify a biased and assuming viewpoint, when they have had clear and concise answers for you ever time, that actually explain their practices in a just way so that you may understand, they believe the same thing you do, and have just interpreted it in another manner. The bible often has room for this, because of its occasionally not-black-and-white nature.
And you know what part of the bible is black and white? The part where Jesus brought tax collectors and prostitutes into his company. I by no means compare a catholic to a prostitute, but my point is that, if he can welcome people with such a terrible standing in society, surely all you can stop this bigotry and allow these people freedom to explore this site, talk and be respected in a manner which justifies Jesus sacrifice.
Right now, as it stands, this is a disgrace.
DISGRACE
Noun:
Loss of reputation or respect.
Verb:
To bring shame or discredit on an object or person.
Right now, as it stands, this is a disgrace.
DISGRACE
Noun:
Loss of reputation or respect.
Verb:
To bring shame or discredit on an object or person.
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To anyone who blatantly attacked someone in this thread, I no longer consider myself 'Christian'. The word often makes me feel sick. I follow Jesus. I have no title. And nor do I wish to be associated with a group, whose name brings me the shame it does at times.
I am not ashamed of God, I'm ashamed of the things people will do 'in His name'. This is the reason I have run from 'the faith' for so long. Christians are hypocrites most of the time. God doesn't want us to be separate and bickering, nor to force ourselves on others. Nor to shame, disrespect or defraud anyone of their belief. Things should be done in love, compassion, patience and understanding. Not brute force, spite and one-uppery.
This thread needs closed.
I am not ashamed of God, I'm ashamed of the things people will do 'in His name'. This is the reason I have run from 'the faith' for so long. Christians are hypocrites most of the time. God doesn't want us to be separate and bickering, nor to force ourselves on others. Nor to shame, disrespect or defraud anyone of their belief. Things should be done in love, compassion, patience and understanding. Not brute force, spite and one-uppery.
This thread needs closed.
If one is a bigot for having endured unspeakable suffering at the hands of apostates' religion then that person should be condemned by this denial of the Way in Jesus, Yeshua. Experience and education, understanding, tolerance, patience and more cannot be made null and void by the eloquence of words which accuse, judge and sentence without foundation. Any departure from the teaching of Yeshua, Jesus, is apostasy, and I know of no theology, by virtue of the naming thereof, that is not apostate. There is no sin in rescuing any soul from the jaws of perdition due to the deceit of those who are deceived.
Peace can only proceed from within. In this world there will never be peace. My experience was a campaign for peace in 1964 when discharged from the USAF no one really wanted peace. Later being found by God, peace came from Him. As for gather all people into this community as you call it, you really should bone up on the subject as explained in the Word. It is a lovely thought that ALL people be brought into the Body of Christ, but unhappily the majority have chosen evil, the majority. You are aware the Word teaches that in the end times, during those seven years of final tribulation, the holy people will have been scattered with very little help? If you believe we are anywhere near that time, do you honestly believe the conditions prophesied are going to be extant overnight? The Master, Himself, indicated much when He asked, "When I return, will I find faith." Now, one of your previous posts you informed me that your eloquence and, I suppose, your understanding exceeds mine, and probably most others here in the forum, therefor I implore you to accept that I now concede to your superior intellect and your knowledge, but know what the Word says about knowledge. Meanwhile, we of lesser minds are obliged to always consult with our Mediator.
Because on this forum, the golden rule is "Do as I say, not as I do."
They believe they are superior to others, that they know the "Truth", and that everyone who is not like them is "deceived" and "fallen into sin."
I have never seen such fanatical self-imprtance, hypocrisy and bigotry outside of the Muslim faith.
That's what fundamentalism does to a faith.
It poisons the well with fanaticism and illogical reasoning, turning the faithful on each other like rabid beasts.
We are ALL meant to be brothers and sisters in Christ.
What part of that memo did people not get?
They believe they are superior to others, that they know the "Truth", and that everyone who is not like them is "deceived" and "fallen into sin."
I have never seen such fanatical self-imprtance, hypocrisy and bigotry outside of the Muslim faith.
That's what fundamentalism does to a faith.
It poisons the well with fanaticism and illogical reasoning, turning the faithful on each other like rabid beasts.
We are ALL meant to be brothers and sisters in Christ.
What part of that memo did people not get?
It is sinful to degrade and relentlessly push these people into a corner though. When does enough become enough? They get your view, it does not need to be reaffirmed for them time and time and time again. They show respect to your beliefs and refrain from attacking them, why can you not do the same?
This is my point, Look at the way 'Christians' are behaving, before pointing fingers and saying 'Your doctrine, your doctrine, you sinner you!'
If, when these Catholic people, who worship Jesus and believe they are doing right in the world, and following the doctrine in the right way (the way it has been interpreted, which for different people, is different), get to the gates of heaven, and God says 'You sinner', then fine.
But we don't have the right to. These people believe they are following the scripture as it is written. And so do you. So what will ever come of this??
If it is righteous for you to judge the Catholics and feed them your opinion, in God's name, then by your own admission, it is also right for me to do the same thing here, and by the Catholics own staunch belief in their own doctrine, it is also right for them to do it as well, no? Thing is, I haven't seen any Catholics degrading other people. Might be something to do with that doctrine they follow . . . hmmm.
This is my point, Look at the way 'Christians' are behaving, before pointing fingers and saying 'Your doctrine, your doctrine, you sinner you!'
If, when these Catholic people, who worship Jesus and believe they are doing right in the world, and following the doctrine in the right way (the way it has been interpreted, which for different people, is different), get to the gates of heaven, and God says 'You sinner', then fine.
But we don't have the right to. These people believe they are following the scripture as it is written. And so do you. So what will ever come of this??
If it is righteous for you to judge the Catholics and feed them your opinion, in God's name, then by your own admission, it is also right for me to do the same thing here, and by the Catholics own staunch belief in their own doctrine, it is also right for them to do it as well, no? Thing is, I haven't seen any Catholics degrading other people. Might be something to do with that doctrine they follow . . . hmmm.
There is a saying, that it is better to have ideas than opinions.
God had an idea once. Where he would put two people in a garden, and have them populate a relentlessly innocent, beautiful race of intelligent beings with no concept of death nor of sin. And what happened, we ate, and then we pointed fingers.
The world doesn't need pointed fingers. It needs help.
God had an idea once. Where he would put two people in a garden, and have them populate a relentlessly innocent, beautiful race of intelligent beings with no concept of death nor of sin. And what happened, we ate, and then we pointed fingers.
The world doesn't need pointed fingers. It needs help.
That line 'Peace can proceed from within'. That only works if everybody realises the core principle of inner peace. It is acceptance. Acceptance that the past is the past, the future is the future and the only thing we can do is be the best possible person we can be at every given moment. That means letting go of pride and self righteousness and doing what's best for everyone else. Whatever can make peace and love grow in other people's hearts. Degradation does not plant a seed for peace. It plants a seed for spite.
To anyone who does not agree with Catholicism:
If you do not agree with Catholic doctrine, yet the Catholic believes it so firmly that they will dispute what you say until the cows come home and nothing will change, what good does your effort come to? What fruit do you bear? And what love comes from it?
It antagonizes them, and it frustrates you. So let them practice what they practice, and you practice what you practice, and come here in peace.
If you do not agree with Catholic doctrine, yet the Catholic believes it so firmly that they will dispute what you say until the cows come home and nothing will change, what good does your effort come to? What fruit do you bear? And what love comes from it?
It antagonizes them, and it frustrates you. So let them practice what they practice, and you practice what you practice, and come here in peace.
How would your dad feel if he'd said to both you and your brother:
'I have a gift for you. Some knowledge. Walk the road that is less travelled'.
One son goes out, and deliberately, physically walks the road less travelled. On his way he comes to a beautiful oasis, filled with all delicious fruit and peace of mind. And he's found his paradise. The advice has helped.
The other son, in his wisdom, takes the philosophical meaning and devotes his life to exploring the paths of mind that are less travelled, and in his gained wisdom, finds happiness.
When they return to each other, they argue intensely over and over about what their dad meant, and in doing so, they fall out and never speak again. Their dad is heartbroken.
They had both done as their dad had asked, but in their own self righteousness, they believed that it was through their own, personal interpretation that they had found these things in their life. And through arguing, they lost each other.
They had heard what their dad had said, and they both did it according to the way that he spoke to them. They were rewarded. But what good came from the argument?
Do you not think, if we hear some scripture, take it to heart, and believe in what we are doing, that God will reward us in the same way? So what good comes from the argument?
God looks at the heart of a person. Do you not think God will see that you have taken the Word a different way? Do you not think He knows?
'I have a gift for you. Some knowledge. Walk the road that is less travelled'.
One son goes out, and deliberately, physically walks the road less travelled. On his way he comes to a beautiful oasis, filled with all delicious fruit and peace of mind. And he's found his paradise. The advice has helped.
The other son, in his wisdom, takes the philosophical meaning and devotes his life to exploring the paths of mind that are less travelled, and in his gained wisdom, finds happiness.
When they return to each other, they argue intensely over and over about what their dad meant, and in doing so, they fall out and never speak again. Their dad is heartbroken.
They had both done as their dad had asked, but in their own self righteousness, they believed that it was through their own, personal interpretation that they had found these things in their life. And through arguing, they lost each other.
They had heard what their dad had said, and they both did it according to the way that he spoke to them. They were rewarded. But what good came from the argument?
Do you not think, if we hear some scripture, take it to heart, and believe in what we are doing, that God will reward us in the same way? So what good comes from the argument?
God looks at the heart of a person. Do you not think God will see that you have taken the Word a different way? Do you not think He knows?
The truth is there is no such thing as a perfect and flawless church. There are bad apples in every religion whether Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Non-Christian, etc. The bottom line is no matter what church you go to, it is still not flawless. The same thing goes with anybody, we are all sinners regardless of what faith or denomination we belong in and we have all fallen short of God. The truth is the only one who is flawless is Jesus. We all have failed God. Yes it is true God does hate sin, but on the other hand we all are guilty of sin
All denominations have their flaws so to tell you the truth, we are to love and accept one another as we are despite our difference. For those who do not love their neighbor who they can see, do not love God who they cannot see for God is love.
All denominations have their flaws so to tell you the truth, we are to love and accept one another as we are despite our difference. For those who do not love their neighbor who they can see, do not love God who they cannot see for God is love.