Under The Law

[edward99]

Stoning:
Casting your "testimony" against a transgressor until they "die to self" (repent).
If they don't, cut them off (kick them out of the assembly)
"You shall not kill" does not mean you can also "throw a literal rock and kill your neighbor"
Matthew 18:15-17 describes the EXACT SAME THING without the metaphors.
The pharisees did the same thing we are doing today. Taking the metaphors and making them literal or changing the meaning in order to control people with religion.

What kind of gnostic stuff if this?
You mean to say when God said men were to be stoned to death He meant it as a metaphor??
God just used all those poor transgressing ancient Hebrews as hard lessons for us after the Cross so we could figure out "Stoning =
Casting your "testimony" against a transgressor until they "die to self" (repent)."?

Oh wow.

 

[WolfInOxHide]

So I guess the words of Paul don't mean anything to you and your religion. The fact that Paul said if you say you have to obey even one law, you have to obey them all... says it all. To believe that we have to obey an external law means you have to throw away almost the entire NT. You have put yourself in the unenviable possition of having to obey all 413 laws... go for it, but you better read them real close. I'll bet you're breaking a lot of them.

Yep reading it real close is important. Because many of those instructions concern only priests, and they are physical metaphors that represent spiritual instructions. "Torah" means instruction, not commandment.

One of the 613 (or however many it is, I wouldn't waste time counting:
Numbers 15:38-39

The fringes on the garments are evidence in your character, that you have not forgotten the law.
This is why the woman with the issue only needed to touch the hem of His garment to be healed.
She herself had not forgotten the instructions, and by her own faith, only needed to make contact with a living example of it to be healed. She saw it in His character, not in His words or miracles.

Another:
Exodus 21:28
An Ox is a priest with the persona of a living sacrifice, and a carrier of burdens. He is not to angrily convert people. If so, he is to be corrected by the people, and they are not to learn that habit.

Revelation 4:6-8
The Lion (kingship), Ox (self sacrifice), Man (servant), and Eagle (prophet) are 4 aspects of the priest, manifested in the throne and those who are round about it.

How can one understand NT without understanding the old?
Arise and measure the temple, "John" (Exodus 25-27)

 

[WolfInOxHide]

You mean to say when God said men were to be stoned to death He meant it as a metaphor??
God just used all those poor transgressing ancient Hebrews as hard lessons for us after the Cross so we could figure out "Stoning =
Casting your "testimony" against a transgressor until they "die to self" (repent)."?

Absolutely. "Thou shalt not murder".
And THEY understood the metaphor until about 100BC.

 

[Mediate]

WolfInOxHide - #Mindblown

 

[becausehedied]

Just thought I would throw these out there.

Gal 6:2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Jas_1:25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

 

[Laodicea]

So I guess the words of Paul don't mean anything to you and your religion. The fact that Paul said if you say you have to obey even one law, you have to obey them all... says it all. To believe that we have to obey an external law means you have to throw away almost the entire NT. You have put yourself in the unenviable possition of having to obey all 413 laws... go for it, but you better read them real close. I'll bet you're breaking a lot of them.

Galatians 5:3
(3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

This is the text you have quoted so which Law is Paul talking about? Not the 10 commandments. Paul is addressing the issue of salvation by works vs salvation by grace through faith. It was taught by some in the early church that people had to keep the laws of ordinances to be saved.

Acts 15:1
(1) And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Paul says this
Galatians 5:5-7
(5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
(6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
(7) Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

We are made righteous by faith not works and that faith works by love and the result in verse 7 is obedience. The problem is not the law but, peoples interpretation of it

Romans 7:12
(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

 

[Hurricane1]

To have the law written in one's heart (by the new birth) does not mean that one is seeking/believing to be justified through the law. But it does mean a totally different attitude towards it than one had before regeneration.

Exactly, that's what I've been trying to get this guy to see. Hr advocates obeying the written law.

 

[Hurricane1]

Galatians 5:3
(3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

This is the text you have quoted so which Law is Paul talking about? Not the 10 commandments. Paul is addressing the issue of salvation by works vs salvation by grace through faith. It was taught by some in the early church that people had to keep the laws of ordinances to be saved.

Acts 15:1
(1) And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Paul says this
Galatians 5:5-7
(5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
(6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
(7) Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

We are made righteous by faith not works and that faith works by love and the result in verse 7 is obedience. The problem is not the law but, peoples interpretation of it

Romans 7:12
(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

I never said the law wasn't Holy. It is simply incapable of giving us eternal life. That is done by faith, just as Abraham was justified by faith, not works. I simply saud that we do not have to follow the written law of "sin and death". We follow the law of the Spirit now, because God has written His laws on our hearts and in our minds. We do the works of the law from the standpoint of regeneration, not external observance. You have been advocating obedience to the written law, which is incorrect. Paul calls it the law of sin and death, because it actually causes us to sin. We are completely incapable of adhering to it.

 

[Laodicea]

I never said the law wasn't Holy. It is simply incapable of giving us eternal life. That is done by faith, just as Abraham was justified by faith, not works. I simply saud that we do not have to follow the written law of "sin and death". We follow the law of the Spirit now, because God has written His laws on our hearts and in our minds. We do the works of the law from the standpoint of regeneration, not external observance. You have been advocating obedience to the written law, which is incorrect. Paul calls it the law of sin and death, because it actually causes us to sin. We are completely incapable of adhering to it.

I never said that the Law gives eternal life or that obeying the Law makes us holy. Obedience to the Law is a result of faith a result of having Christ in us. If we are not obedient then we do not know God. Christ fulfilled the written Law so the written Law reveals the character of Christ.

1 John 2:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[edward99]

Absolutely. "Thou shalt not murder".
And THEY understood the metaphor until about 100BC.

Would you elaborate, and document what you are claiming?

Also:
Are you familiar with Austin Sparks?

 

[Hurricane1]

Would you elaborate, and document what you are claiming?

Also:
Are you familiar with Austin Sparks?

What a great preacher he was. I have almost all his books and booklets. My personal favorite is "The Supremacy and Centrality of the Lord Jesus Christ". (I may have that reversed, but you know what I mean)

 

[Hurricane1]

I never said that the Law gives eternal life or that obeying the Law makes us holy. Obedience to the Law is a result of faith a result of having Christ in us. If we are not obedient then we do not know God. Christ fulfilled the written Law so the written Law reveals the character of Christ.

1 John 2:4

King James Version (KJV)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The only thing we seem to disagree on is the function of the written law. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that. I am going to continue to live by the spirit and walk with the Lord Himself every moment that I can.

 

[JaumeJ]

Even if we were never aware of the Law, when we become aware of our Lord Yeshua, if we open our hearts, souls and minds to Him and receive Him, we become a law unto ourselves in that under grace, and in the joy of knowing Yeshua we act as He has taught us, guided by the two great laws of Love. God is Love, so when we act accordingly, although we are fully living in grace, we obey the Law because we have that great and holy (separate) gift of Love enduing each of us with the discernment to always do what is correct in Love. When we are incorrect (when we sin, break the law) we have Yeshua always to plead our cause to the Father, and we are ALWAYS forgiven, though so hard to believe. Oh how we need grace, every one of us, and we have it. Death due to the law has lost its sting with all who are in Yeshua, Jesus, amen. Bless the Lord, oh my soul, amen.

 

[Laodicea]

The only thing we seem to disagree on is the function of the written law. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that. I am going to continue to live by the spirit and walk with the Lord Himself every moment that I can.

Are you saying that we do not need the Law of God? That being led by the spirit of God is enough?

 

[Hurricane1]

Are you saying that we do not need the Law of God? That being led by the spirit of God is enough?

How many times must I say this... The Spirit of God had written His laws on our hearts and in our minds. That is because the Spirit now dwells within us. Yes, we do not need the written law because those laws are now on our hearts and in our minds. That is scripture. How can you argue this? It's plainly written.

Hebrews 10:
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.’”a
8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”b
17Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”c
18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

 

[WolfInOxHide]

Would you elaborate, and document what you are claiming?

Also:
Are you familiar with Austin Sparks?

Elaboration: Search youtube for "Poor Muslim Girl Siddqa Is Stoned To Death"
You must log in to view. NOT FOR THE FEINT OF HEART
Watch her die in a mirror image of the torment/annihilation doctrine.
After watching, I dare not accuse my Father of sourcing such evil.

Documentation: Look carefully in John 8 and you will see that "He who is without sin" DID IN FACT "cast the first stone" that day. In fact, two. One at the pharisees and one at the woman.
Woman guilty of literal adultery because she was found in the act.
Pharisees guilty of spiritual adultery because they wanted blood rather than her repentance.

Y'Shua knew these things by the age of 12. He is VERY intelligent, clever, and has even has a righteous and hilarious sense of humor, drowned by translations.

And tell me brother, if YHWH never changes, how then did He require this of Israel, a people He CHOSE because they embraced gentleness? And follow it up by having His son peacefully condemn murder, even suffer it Himself on behalf of that woman, you, and I?
The law does not justify our actions, nor the reverse.
It is an outward manifestation of selfless love. It is the fruit, not the tree itself.

It's the world's confusion, not the Father's.
I've been there too my brother. For decades I TRIED to believe it.
Never brought me hope.

PEACE and GRACE to you in the name of Y'Shua

I've never read Austin Sparks. But I'll bet his rocks weren't literal either.

 

[Laodicea]

How many times must I say this... The Spirit of God had written His laws on our hearts and in our minds. That is because the Spirit now dwells within us. Yes, we do not need the written law because those laws are now on our hearts and in our minds. That is scripture. How can you argue this? It's plainly written.

Hebrews 10:
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.’”a
8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”b
17Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”c
18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

Romans 7:7
(7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
John 16:7-8
(7) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
(8) And when he is come, he will reprove (convict) the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
1 John 3:4
(4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

If you get rid of the written Law you are getting rid of the work of the Holy Spirit, for the first work of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin and He uses the written Law. God's Law is written in His book the Bible, the Bible is the final authority. The Bible is the sword of the Spirit. To get rid of the written Law you have to also get rid of the Bible.

The Law that is written upon our hearts is the written Law. God writes the Law upon our heart and it is lived out in the life. The pharisees only had an external experience but, not an internal. God wants to change us from the inside out.

Exodus 34:28
(28) And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Hebrews 8:10
(10) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The old covenant was faulty because it was based upon faulty promises. Israel promised to keep God's Law and did not. The covenant given to Abraham was based upon the promises of God and we become part of the promise to Abraham because it was not based upon faulty promises.

 

[Laodicea]

Because I have a knowledge of the Law of God and have studied how each of the 10 commandments teach the character of Christ then if or when I sin then I do not have to read the Law of God every time to be convicted because the Law of God is written in my heart.

If we get rid of the written Law of God then we are turning people away from Christ for by reading and knowing the written Law of God we have conviction and turn to Christ.

 

[newcovenantchristian]

How many times must I say this... The Spirit of God had written His laws on our hearts and in our minds. That is because the Spirit now dwells within us. Yes, we do not need the written law because those laws are now on our hearts and in our minds. That is scripture. How can you argue this? It's plainly written.

Hebrews 10:
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.’”a
8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”b
17Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”c
18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.

Good post. A good way to look at it is. Would the Holy Spirit lead us into conflict with the good and Holy laws of God He would have us keep? Our job is to look to Christ and trust in him, if we are doing that and relying on the Spirit within us we are not seeking to live according to the flesh. The real sin if you like is when we look away from Christ in our hearts and turn wilfully to the flesh.
But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under law
Gal5:18
Why not?
For the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control, AGAINST SUCH THINGS THERE IS NO LAW
Gal5:22

 

[Red33]

Because I have a knowledge of the Law of God and have studied how each of the 10 commandments teach the character of Christ then if or when I sin then I do not have to read the Law of God every time to be convicted because the Law of God is written in my heart.

If we get rid of the written Law of God then we are turning people away from Christ for by reading and knowing the written Law of God we have conviction and turn to Christ.

The conviction that you are leaving out has to do with the words of Christ under a new covenant of grace in (Mt 5:27,28) that says this...

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The law never made that distinction until the words of Christ made it so and these are the words that the Holy Spirit will bring to our remembrance (Jn 14:26). These are the words of Christ under a new covenant that is established in our hearts through grace (Jn 15:7, Heb 13:9, Jn 1:17, Col 1:6).

The (10) commandments, as holy as they are, can't touch the conviction we receive by the Holy Spirit through the words of Christ. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is far greater than any of the conviction that might come through those commandments. The law of those commandments were only a shadow of things to come and not the image of those things (Heb 10:1).

Let's say I am married and I keep the commandment that says, 'thou shalt not commit adultery' but in my heart there have been a few women that I looked upon and lusted after but never followed through with physically. Under the law I have not been guilty of adultery but under the words of Christ I have committed adultery in my heart. The law was inadequate to even convict me of sin in my heart. That is the law being weak through the flesh in condemning sin in my flesh and in my heart (Rom 8:3)

So keeping the law does nothing to make you perfect and doesn't even have the power to convict the heart of sin. It takes the Holy Spirit through the words of Christ to do that and not the law. I may know and understand from the law not to commit adultery but my heart is so deceitful and desperately wicked that it could happen quickly in my heart without me even knowing it (Jer 17:9).