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Let us look at some examples in the N.T. of people that had become christians and later rejected the faith and examine their fates.
I. In Heb. 6:4-8, the writer describes both the prior and latter states of those who had "FALLEN AWAY."
A. Prior state These had:
1. Been enlightened.
2. Had tasted the heavenly gift. (The word for tasted is γευσαμένους which means to experience. This is the same word that is used in Heb.
2:9 saying Jesus "tasted" death for everyone.
3. Been made partakers of the Holy Spirit.
4. Tasted the good word of God.
B. Present state. They have "fallen away." From what then have they fallen?
1. An enlightend state.
2. The experience of the heavenly gift.
3. The partaking or sharing of the Holy Spirit.
4. The good word of God.
5. Crucified Christ all over again. Like those of Heb. 10:26-31, these have "trampled under foot the Son of God and regarded as unclean the blood of
the covenant by which he WAS sanctified" (passed tense). In other words these now regard the blood that had once sanctified them as nothing
more than the peverbial hog slaughtere on the altar.
C. The impossible delima - It is now impossible to renew the again to repentance. Why? Because they have fallen away from the very thing that brought
them to repentance in the first place which was the word of God. It is now impossible to restore them to repentance. One cannot be REnewed AGAIN
to a state they have never occupied. Thus, once having once been saved and then having fallen away, they cannot be brought because they will no
longer repent. This is of course representing the extreem case.
D. Their fate. Like the ground that yields thistles and thorns, they are cursed and end up being burned. Just like those of 10:26-31, whose fate is to fall
into the hands of a vengfull God who says, "I will repay."
I. In Heb. 6:4-8, the writer describes both the prior and latter states of those who had "FALLEN AWAY."
A. Prior state These had:
1. Been enlightened.
2. Had tasted the heavenly gift. (The word for tasted is γευσαμένους which means to experience. This is the same word that is used in Heb.
2:9 saying Jesus "tasted" death for everyone.
3. Been made partakers of the Holy Spirit.
4. Tasted the good word of God.
B. Present state. They have "fallen away." From what then have they fallen?
1. An enlightend state.
2. The experience of the heavenly gift.
3. The partaking or sharing of the Holy Spirit.
4. The good word of God.
5. Crucified Christ all over again. Like those of Heb. 10:26-31, these have "trampled under foot the Son of God and regarded as unclean the blood of
the covenant by which he WAS sanctified" (passed tense). In other words these now regard the blood that had once sanctified them as nothing
more than the peverbial hog slaughtere on the altar.
C. The impossible delima - It is now impossible to renew the again to repentance. Why? Because they have fallen away from the very thing that brought
them to repentance in the first place which was the word of God. It is now impossible to restore them to repentance. One cannot be REnewed AGAIN
to a state they have never occupied. Thus, once having once been saved and then having fallen away, they cannot be brought because they will no
longer repent. This is of course representing the extreem case.
D. Their fate. Like the ground that yields thistles and thorns, they are cursed and end up being burned. Just like those of 10:26-31, whose fate is to fall
into the hands of a vengfull God who says, "I will repay."
E
the answer to your question is YES. Anyone who states they have never felt this way is lieing to themselves. whether they believe in OSAS or not.
as for us arguing this. Paul wrote half the New Testament to refute people who think they can earn salvation by a set of rules and regulation, or a works based Gospel. Calling it no gospel at all. So YES we should stand up for thisl for there is only one gospel. As paul said, Anyone who teaches a different gospel should be anathema'd. We should take his lead!
The is not the same as discussing doctrines based on end times prophesy, or how a church is to act. this is the gsoepl, people eternity is at stake here, this is NOT a basic, doctrine where we should just sit back and say it is fine to believe what you believe, because only one of us is right, the ones who are wrong are destined to an eternity separate from God.
as for us arguing this. Paul wrote half the New Testament to refute people who think they can earn salvation by a set of rules and regulation, or a works based Gospel. Calling it no gospel at all. So YES we should stand up for thisl for there is only one gospel. As paul said, Anyone who teaches a different gospel should be anathema'd. We should take his lead!
The is not the same as discussing doctrines based on end times prophesy, or how a church is to act. this is the gsoepl, people eternity is at stake here, this is NOT a basic, doctrine where we should just sit back and say it is fine to believe what you believe, because only one of us is right, the ones who are wrong are destined to an eternity separate from God.
C
To me OSAS is just peoples philosophy. There is an overwhelmingly amount of scriptures that say a person can be saved and still fall away from the faith. No way that the New Testament would warn us over and over again about something that cant happen.
And it is true that we are all bad. By going bad I mean you abandon your faith. We are saved by faith and not by works, but if people think they can be a Christian and just live life however they choose and still go to heaven, thats not true. We have to turn from certain life styles. We have to be "washed". I know people can have strongholds in their life, and God is very patient with those who are trying, but you have to be trying.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
And it is true that we are all bad. By going bad I mean you abandon your faith. We are saved by faith and not by works, but if people think they can be a Christian and just live life however they choose and still go to heaven, thats not true. We have to turn from certain life styles. We have to be "washed". I know people can have strongholds in their life, and God is very patient with those who are trying, but you have to be trying.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
I didn't say this. If you read my earlier post I made it very clear that those convicted of their sins, those born again, do not have a desire to sin, rather we want to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. Those who are not saved do not care about sin because they have no relationship with God and so no guilt for disobeying Him.
E
Better yet, Lets look at hos the author of Hebrews SHOULD be translated.
1. Context. The author is speaking to Hebrew people who claimed to have tasted the truth of the gospel, and have returned to the law, (the law states we must work our way to earn salvation) He is warning people who have heard the truth of the gospel. to not show their faith was dead, and reveal who they truly were by returning to the vomit they truly trusted in.
2. We must see what the context and start of the passages is. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT, then determine what is impossible.,
3. Then we come to the who. I agree, the who is those who have been saved, For only those who are saved have tasted and become partakers of the HS.
4. Then we go on, And see that paul makes a questionary statement. "IF THEY FALL AWAY" And we must note. Paul is not saying the did fall away, He is saying if they could fall away, How can I say this? again look at context of the letter. The law. What does the law state? It states one is cleansed only for the sins forgiven by the sacrifice of the animal. Any sin after than, another sacrifice must be given, Thus in between, when one sins, they have "FALLEN AWAY" so, in returning to law. you are staing one is ABLE to fall away, and must be renewed by another sacrifice. Thus paul, refering to law. says IF THEY FALL AWAY.
5. Finally we come to what is impossible. "TO RENEW THEM TO REPENTANCE" this has 2 major conclusions.
A. If they ever did fall away, they could never be saved again - according to law, this is not true, for one can be renewed simply by sacrifice. even those who say you can lose salvation, and that is the context of the author in this text, if one could lose salvation (OSAS is FALSE) whoever did lose salvation can never be saved again.
B, The author is really saying they can't fall away, and even if they could, if they did, they are lost forever.
6. Crucified for themselves christ all over again. The author is stating a fact, unlike the law where a sacrifice would have to be done again if one fell away, if one can fall away now, Christ owuld have to be crucified again in order to renew them.
7. And put christ to open shame. why do they do this? they say there is a sin which Christ did not pay the price for (now over 2000 years ago) and he must return to earth to die again for the sin he forgot to die for in the first place.
the context here is animal sacrifice. Hebrews says it never took away sin, and had to be repeated over and over. if we can 'fall away" or lose salvation.l Christ must return again and be crucified over and over for the sin which caused us to "fall away" to begin with.
1. Context. The author is speaking to Hebrew people who claimed to have tasted the truth of the gospel, and have returned to the law, (the law states we must work our way to earn salvation) He is warning people who have heard the truth of the gospel. to not show their faith was dead, and reveal who they truly were by returning to the vomit they truly trusted in.
2. We must see what the context and start of the passages is. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT, then determine what is impossible.,
3. Then we come to the who. I agree, the who is those who have been saved, For only those who are saved have tasted and become partakers of the HS.
4. Then we go on, And see that paul makes a questionary statement. "IF THEY FALL AWAY" And we must note. Paul is not saying the did fall away, He is saying if they could fall away, How can I say this? again look at context of the letter. The law. What does the law state? It states one is cleansed only for the sins forgiven by the sacrifice of the animal. Any sin after than, another sacrifice must be given, Thus in between, when one sins, they have "FALLEN AWAY" so, in returning to law. you are staing one is ABLE to fall away, and must be renewed by another sacrifice. Thus paul, refering to law. says IF THEY FALL AWAY.
5. Finally we come to what is impossible. "TO RENEW THEM TO REPENTANCE" this has 2 major conclusions.
A. If they ever did fall away, they could never be saved again - according to law, this is not true, for one can be renewed simply by sacrifice. even those who say you can lose salvation, and that is the context of the author in this text, if one could lose salvation (OSAS is FALSE) whoever did lose salvation can never be saved again.
B, The author is really saying they can't fall away, and even if they could, if they did, they are lost forever.
6. Crucified for themselves christ all over again. The author is stating a fact, unlike the law where a sacrifice would have to be done again if one fell away, if one can fall away now, Christ owuld have to be crucified again in order to renew them.
7. And put christ to open shame. why do they do this? they say there is a sin which Christ did not pay the price for (now over 2000 years ago) and he must return to earth to die again for the sin he forgot to die for in the first place.
the context here is animal sacrifice. Hebrews says it never took away sin, and had to be repeated over and over. if we can 'fall away" or lose salvation.l Christ must return again and be crucified over and over for the sin which caused us to "fall away" to begin with.
E
To me, A works based Gospel is human philosophy. Every religion in the world teaches this, Every religion apposed to God from adam until today teaches this. It is God who is different and shows his true love by saving us in spite of ourselves.
Why has Satan been able to propagate this lie so good? because of our pride.
1. We refuse to admit we are not good enough, even when we work so hard at being righteous and obeying Gods laws. Why should I not get in, when I am not like the other sinners.
2. We refuse to admit our works mean nothing. How can god forgive me if I do not do something to earn it.
this is why Satan's lie has spawned the ages, and will still be around in the end when Christ returns. Human pride refuses to allow us to see Gods truth, we want to have a part of it.
The NT does not teach we can lose it. It teaches the opposite. The problem is we have two sides of the equation in satans lie.
1. I can be saved and sin all I want, and never change (licentiousness - taught against by all the apostles.
2. I must work to earn salvation. Again Fought by Paul mostly, but fought by all.
The faith based crowd stands in the middle. We are called licentious by legalists, and legalistic by licentious. And satan uses this to keep people from truth.
You still don;t get it. Your still trying to get saved by your own ability to stop sin. Look I agree, we can't be saved and live like we always did. That is a licentious gospel and a lie from satan. But we can't work either. Look at what Paul said.
"And such were some of you"
Now you need to really open your heart and look what follows in the very passage you posted. What did paul say?
Did he say:
But you turned from sin, and no longer do these things, and as long as you continue to obey Gods commands, you will be washed?
or did he says?
but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
That although they used to be like this. condemned for sin. They have now been washed (baptized) justified (made righteous, innocent of all Guilt, and Sanctified (set apart from the world, and made a child of God) by our own good deeds of stopping sin? No, BY TH$ HOLY SPIRIT
Remember, The corinthian churhc was in sexual sin, among many others sins, Yet paul called them brothers, He is telling them, why do you act like the world. Do you not understand you were washed sanctified and justified By God. Why should you keep sinning?
Why has Satan been able to propagate this lie so good? because of our pride.
1. We refuse to admit we are not good enough, even when we work so hard at being righteous and obeying Gods laws. Why should I not get in, when I am not like the other sinners.
2. We refuse to admit our works mean nothing. How can god forgive me if I do not do something to earn it.
this is why Satan's lie has spawned the ages, and will still be around in the end when Christ returns. Human pride refuses to allow us to see Gods truth, we want to have a part of it.
The NT does not teach we can lose it. It teaches the opposite. The problem is we have two sides of the equation in satans lie.
1. I can be saved and sin all I want, and never change (licentiousness - taught against by all the apostles.
2. I must work to earn salvation. Again Fought by Paul mostly, but fought by all.
The faith based crowd stands in the middle. We are called licentious by legalists, and legalistic by licentious. And satan uses this to keep people from truth.
You still don;t get it. Your still trying to get saved by your own ability to stop sin. Look I agree, we can't be saved and live like we always did. That is a licentious gospel and a lie from satan. But we can't work either. Look at what Paul said.
"And such were some of you"
Now you need to really open your heart and look what follows in the very passage you posted. What did paul say?
Did he say:
But you turned from sin, and no longer do these things, and as long as you continue to obey Gods commands, you will be washed?
or did he says?
but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
That although they used to be like this. condemned for sin. They have now been washed (baptized) justified (made righteous, innocent of all Guilt, and Sanctified (set apart from the world, and made a child of God) by our own good deeds of stopping sin? No, BY TH$ HOLY SPIRIT
Remember, The corinthian churhc was in sexual sin, among many others sins, Yet paul called them brothers, He is telling them, why do you act like the world. Do you not understand you were washed sanctified and justified By God. Why should you keep sinning?
E
What is the penalty of sin? God says it is death. So for every sin we commit, our reward is the death penalty,
Now imagine you sin once a day, that is 365 death penalties a year. How about ten sins a day, that is 3500 death penalties a year. If we say we would even sin ten times a day or less, we do not see ourselves as God sees us, Again, if we did, we would be appalled at our own sin nature.
Now. thinking of these things, Hoew can we ever get out of 3500 death epanlties a year under our own power? How could we ever make up for these sins enough to be found righteous. God says the standard for righteousness is perfection. If we break even th eleast of the commands, we are as guilty as if we broke them all. So just saying a small white lie, or going over the speed limit, or cheating on something, or lusting after what someone else has, we are as guilty as the murdering rapist who is spending the rest of his life in jail in Gods eyes.
Again, if we could see this, we would fully understand grace, and never believe we could ever be good enough to save ourselves. and depend fully on Christ and his grace.
C
These verses seal the deal for me.
Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
C
You still dont get it. I'm talking habitual sinful lifestyles. I dont believe you lose your salvation every time you commit a sin.
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
G4238
πράσσω
prassō
pras'-so
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.
If you think you can practice those things and still inherit the kingdom of God then you are kidding yourself.
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
G4238
πράσσω
prassō
pras'-so
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually (thus differing from G4160, which properly refers to a single act); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.
If you think you can practice those things and still inherit the kingdom of God then you are kidding yourself.
E
You still don;t get it. A person who continues to live in sin was never saved, they never had a salvation to begin with. How can someone who is never saved because they never repented and had faith lose something they never had.
Why would I think I can practice them? I have repented, I am washed in Christ. Why would I want to do them? They serve me no prophet. Your preaching against licentiousness. A licentious person was never saved.
You still don;t get the fact you still sin every day, Your like the world religion who has their pet peave sins and say those who commit them can not be saved, or will lose out on whatever salvation they thought they had, When you can't see the sin in your own life. God does not have certain sins which disqualify us, and some in which he says its ok, I will let you slide, he says ALL sin leads to death, Until you realize this, you will NEVER understand repentance or Grace
Why would I think I can practice them? I have repented, I am washed in Christ. Why would I want to do them? They serve me no prophet. Your preaching against licentiousness. A licentious person was never saved.
You still don;t get the fact you still sin every day, Your like the world religion who has their pet peave sins and say those who commit them can not be saved, or will lose out on whatever salvation they thought they had, When you can't see the sin in your own life. God does not have certain sins which disqualify us, and some in which he says its ok, I will let you slide, he says ALL sin leads to death, Until you realize this, you will NEVER understand repentance or Grace
Does the NT support the view of once saved always saved?
It depends which verses of scripture you look at is my honest answer!
I guess the scriptures I always focused more on would say no.
But do I now believe a sincere conversion experiance can be lost?
I would have to be a hypocrite to say yes. For I know in my own life there have been many times I have wandered from giving God first place in my life and committed much sin, but I also know that God has allowed situations in my life to then get so bad I have always come running back to him, and He has always been there with open arms. So I believe I am secure yes, for the bottom line(for me anyway) is God's love and mercy to me, and as Paul says
If we disown him
He must disown us
If we are faithless
He will remain faithful
For he cannot disown his own
But I know I have never disowned Christ.
I can say this though. It would be impossible for me(and has been in my life) to be in a sinful relationship(for example) and stay in it for a while and at the same time go to church and raise my arms in the air in worship to God knowing I am saved despite my sin, I believe such an attitude is living as Jude warned, many turn the grace of God into a licence for sin.
To those who reply, 'all sin is sin and God does not categorise sin and we all sin every day in some way or another' I believe you are badly mistaken , for God will not be mocked, and if you cannot see the difference between someone murdering someone else and a child stealing candy from the store there is something wrong. For if you sin in such a way as described and know God you are left with burdening guilt and sorrow, for you are grieving the Holy Spirit and cannot attend a church rejoicing in praise to God. If anyone thinks they can I would doubt they had a sincere conversion in the first place
Just my thoughts from personal experiance
It depends which verses of scripture you look at is my honest answer!
I guess the scriptures I always focused more on would say no.
But do I now believe a sincere conversion experiance can be lost?
I would have to be a hypocrite to say yes. For I know in my own life there have been many times I have wandered from giving God first place in my life and committed much sin, but I also know that God has allowed situations in my life to then get so bad I have always come running back to him, and He has always been there with open arms. So I believe I am secure yes, for the bottom line(for me anyway) is God's love and mercy to me, and as Paul says
If we disown him
He must disown us
If we are faithless
He will remain faithful
For he cannot disown his own
But I know I have never disowned Christ.
I can say this though. It would be impossible for me(and has been in my life) to be in a sinful relationship(for example) and stay in it for a while and at the same time go to church and raise my arms in the air in worship to God knowing I am saved despite my sin, I believe such an attitude is living as Jude warned, many turn the grace of God into a licence for sin.
To those who reply, 'all sin is sin and God does not categorise sin and we all sin every day in some way or another' I believe you are badly mistaken , for God will not be mocked, and if you cannot see the difference between someone murdering someone else and a child stealing candy from the store there is something wrong. For if you sin in such a way as described and know God you are left with burdening guilt and sorrow, for you are grieving the Holy Spirit and cannot attend a church rejoicing in praise to God. If anyone thinks they can I would doubt they had a sincere conversion in the first place
Just my thoughts from personal experiance
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C
The people in these verses were clearly saved....but its obvious we dont agree. Your mind is made up and so is mine. So, I'll just remove myself from the discussion because I have already expressed what I believe.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
C
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
E
It is your opinion they were saved. Peter called them a dog. This alone proves they were not saved. they returned to their true self. A dog can pretend to be something he is not and play a game, but he will always return to his own self. A person who is not saved can pretend he is saved, and play the game, but if he is not saved, he will always return to his old self. why? His old self was not crucified with Christ, it never died.
They escaped the polutions of the world by fellow shipping with the church, claiming to be part of the church. Many people have done this and never were saved. But like John said, They departed for they never were of us, for if they were they never would have departed. If we are truely saved. we will no longer live as the world, but show a changed life.
If you want to earn your salvation feel free. I have recieved mine, and am gratefull for it. I can never be lost. No one is able to snatch me out of Gods hand (I am a man, so that would include myself)
A person who has rejected the gospel has denied Christ. That is why they are not saved, never have been saved, and never will be saved until they repent and accpet Christ's gift based on his work alone.
Why would God say he is still faithfull if I am still faithless if he did not mean it?