Once saved Always Saved! Does the New Testament support this??

[Deadtosin]

not everyone who cries "Lord, Lord" will be saved.


Matthew 25

King James Version (KJV)



25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. The writer is not saying that they claimed to have tasted, but presents a statement of fact - "They had tasted." But you are right in saying that they returned to the law. These has left the law in response to the gospel. Now that they are rejecting the cross and going bact to the law. This is the foundation they were "laying again."

I never stated they claimed, I am saying the author said it was impossible for those of us who have been saved.

2. I am assuming that you are using the KJV or the NIV. Am I correct? The UBS does not show this to be a Question. There is no "if" in the Greek. it simply says, παραπεσόντας - literally "having fallen away". This is a statement of fact based on actual cases, not a what if scenario.

Having fallen away is correct. But again we go back to the question, it is impossible, having fallen away would be the order of things here.

3. Under the law, sin was not forgiven on the basis of those sacrifices, but on the basis of what those sacrifices represented - the cross. Lev. chapters 4 and 5 show us that they were indeed forgiven under the law. But it was not by the law. Even David understood this. "How blessed is the man whose transgression is forgiven, whose sins are covered...to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity," Psalms 32:1-2. But he also knew that those sacrifices were not the avenue through which forgiveness came. "Thou doest not delight in sacrifice or I would bring it it." Psalms 51:1-2.

Your going to deep here, and not hearing what I said, Yes, the law never saved anyone, but that is not what many of the hebrews this letter was written to thought, They thought the law saved them. Thats why they crucified Christ, and found it so hard to accept Gods grace gift. Because for their whole lives, it was about law. Not grace, even though as Hebrews later states, it never was law.

4. The inability to renew again is not linked to a supposition of "IF" they were to fall away. The impossibility is linked to the fact that after having been saved they have rejected the cross, not the old sacrifices, and in so doing have shamed Christ openly.

This can go both ways, we have to get in paul's mind what was his meaning for writing this?

1. It is impossible for those who are saved, having fallen away, to renew them (meaning they were saved, and lost that salvation, thus now can never get it back)
2. it is impossible for those who are saved, having fallen away to renew them (meaning if they could lose salvation they could never get it back)

now lets look at reality of all who believe you can lose salvation. Not one person who was following their tainted jewish law, or one person who is following a works based gospel today (in other words, who does not believe in OSAS) believes this to be true. Every one of them believe a person can lose salvation and be restored to salvation. Thus number one in both cases would be null and void in either of these cases. for every one of them believe one can be renewed to repentance.

if on the other hand, we are thinking these people to now not even believe in Christ, but become anti-christ (one who is against or who does not believe) then John answers the question. They did not fall away, As john said, they departed for they were NEVER OF US (were never saved) for if they HAD BEEN OF US (been saved) they would NEVER HAVE LEFT (never left and stated this Christ thing is nonsense and they no longer believe it.

so in all cases stated above, number 1 would be null and void.

When interpreting scripture, we need to look at ALL cases of possible interpretation and see which one fits do we not?

5. The writer does not say they cannot be 'saved' again. He says that cannot be brought back to repentance again. I am sure you would agree however, that this would render them unable to be saved since there is no longer repentance.

This is quite true, if one can not renew their repentance, they can not renew their salvation.

6. He is not comparing the crucifying of Christ again to the repetitious offering of O.T. sacrifice. To those who have rejected and fallen away, they are considering Christ worthy of the crucifiction. Thery are rejecting him and his sacrifice. Like those of 10:29, they are considering the blood of Christ "BY WHICH THEY HAD BEEN SANCTIFIED" and unclean thing, and have insulted the Spirit of grace.

In other words, they have become anti-christ, see the apostle john and what he says about them. so I do not think this fits. for John said they never fell away, they were never of us, so they had nothing to fall away from.

Thus we are left to reconsider what paul meant since this can not be it. Saying one can fall away because of sin means what? It means that the penalty of the sin was not paid for. So what must be done to allow repentance of the sin which caused them to "fall away in the first place" There are only two options, if you under law. Animal sacrifice. If you under Christ, He must return to die for the sin which caused the falling away, because his death was not sufficient to pay for that sin and allow forgiveness. THIS is what PUTS CHRIST TO OPEN SHAME. They say HIS DEATH WAS INSUFFICIENT.

And this is not just in this case, Anyone who says we can lose something that God gave based on HIS promise, and HIS sacrifice, says his death was not sufficient, he needs our help, eithe rby working of our own power to be good, obeying a set of rules and regulations, and doing a set of religious traditions. If we help Christ out in these area he will save us, Christ needs out help, He said "it is finished" but he did not mean it.

7. The writer's point is that these had been sanctified - made holy - something that all of the sacrifices of the O.T. combined could never do. In verse 29, he even draws a contrast between the one's he speaking of and those who died under the law for rejecting Moses. those who rejected the blood after having been cleansed by it are worther of greater punishment. Verse 30 shows their fate.

Thank your for your patience in awaiting my response.

No problem. I pray my response to your response has shown you a different view, and why I believe the way I do.

again my main point, If you reject the blood, you reject Christ, you are thus an Anti-Christ. The apostle john said they did not fall away, they were never of us, so they had nothing to fall away from. We MUST take scripture as a whole, it can not contradict itself in any area, if it does, it is fallible, and should not be trusted.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

not everyone who cries "Lord, Lord" will be saved.

Amen, and even more damaging to the view one can be saved and then that salvation can be lost.

if this was true, and someone was once a child of God, God owuld have known that person personally in a relationship states as it was restored, if even for a time.

yet Jesus said, "I NEVER KNEW YOU" showing, he never knew that person in a relationship status at any time in their lives, which proves they were NEVER SAVED

 

[biggiestomp]

And I want to give a shoutout to that special person who thinks Satan started this thread. Thanks for your input regardless.

Be Blessed!

Maybe i was was misunderstood. Or i may not have worded myself well. But what i was saying, I believe this question on (once saved always saved) was started by Satan to get Christians to argue and debate. It was not mention that the thread was started by Satan. Judging from your thread, you dont believe that once saved always saved. So why in the world would it be directed at you? And yes, I am special!!!!!

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

The people who say they are saved but continue to live a life of sin did not lose salvation, THEY NEVER HAD IT. You can't lose something you never had.

I believe they did have it. They were washed clean. How can you return back to the vomit unless you abandoned it in the first place?

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Salvation is a gift, but you still play a role in that gift, you have to accept the gift. I believe its possible to accept the gift and then later give it back.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe they did have it. They were washed clean. How can you return back to the vomit unless you abandoned it in the first place?[

They did abandon it for a time, But it does not mean they were saved, They tried something new, and they did not like it, so they returned to what they really liked, Why does a dog eat his vomit? he like sit. or else he would not eat it.

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Salvation is a gift, but you still play a role in that gift, you have to accept the gift. I believe its possible to accept the gift and then later give it back.

Then it is not a gift, Because it is still earned. Even if you believe that the way you earn it is not to give it back, It still depends on something you do, Which means it is your work which saved you.

Saying one can give it back does a few things.

1. It says God did not know their true heart and waqs not omniscient, and he gave a gift to someone he knew was going to throw it back in his face
2. It says God is a liar when he says even when we are faithless, he is faithfull.
3. it says God is a liar when he said he sealed us with his spirit, who is our guarantee until the day of redemption (ressurection)
4. it says God is a liar when he said what he gave us (life) is eternal, when it is actually comditional (what ever condition one places on it, even the condition of not giving it back would be a condition)

I can go and and on and on...

 

[Deadtosin]

I personally believe that a person can invite Jesus into their life and then change their mind and follow something else completely and not make it to Heaven. True that God knew all of this from the beginning and may have never saved that individual even though the person confessed with their lips and not with their heart. I just think it's damaging to people who may read our words if they believe they can "confess with their lips" and turn to sin to dwell believing they will inherit the Kingdom of God.

"where your heart is, so shall you be."

"is your heart with God? or with death?"

sin=death.

God= Life.

 

[Closemyeyes2cU]

Saying one can give it back does a few things.

1. It says God did not know their true heart and waqs not omniscient, and he gave a gift to someone he knew was going to throw it back in his face (What you are saying is when someone gets saved God takes away their free will, and you have no choice but to remain saved, and he forces you to keep the gift you have been giving)

2. It says God is a liar when he says even when we are faithless, he is faithfull. (This remains true, God is still faithful to his Word even if we are faithless, which means if you dont have faith, he will allow you to go to hell just like his Word says)

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

3. it says God is a liar when he said he sealed us with his spirit, who is our guarantee until the day of redemption (ressurection) (As long as you continue in the faith and abandon your sinful lifestyles then you are sealed)

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

4. it says God is a liar when he said what he gave us (life) is eternal, when it is actually comditional (what ever condition one places on it, even the condition of not giving it back would be a condition) (It is conditional)

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth(a condition) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.(a condition)


Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments (a condition), ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.







I can go and and on and on...( So could I, but I wont because its becoming fruitless)

My reply is above

 

[oldhermit]

I never stated they claimed, I am saying the author said it was impossible for those of us who have been saved.


Having fallen away is correct. But again we go back to the question, it is impossible, having fallen away would be the order of things here.


Your going to deep here, and not hearing what I said, Yes, the law never saved anyone, but that is not what many of the hebrews this letter was written to thought, They thought the law saved them. Thats why they crucified Christ, and found it so hard to accept Gods grace gift. Because for their whole lives, it was about law. Not grace, even though as Hebrews later states, it never was law.



This can go both ways, we have to get in paul's mind what was his meaning for writing this?

1. It is impossible for those who are saved, having fallen away, to renew them (meaning they were saved, and lost that salvation, thus now can never get it back)
2. it is impossible for those who are saved, having fallen away to renew them (meaning if they could lose salvation they could never get it back)

now lets look at reality of all who believe you can lose salvation. Not one person who was following their tainted jewish law, or one person who is following a works based gospel today (in other words, who does not believe in OSAS) believes this to be true. Every one of them believe a person can lose salvation and be restored to salvation. Thus number one in both cases would be null and void in either of these cases. for every one of them believe one can be renewed to repentance.

if on the other hand, we are thinking these people to now not even believe in Christ, but become anti-christ (one who is against or who does not believe) then John answers the question. They did not fall away, As john said, they departed for they were NEVER OF US (were never saved) for if they HAD BEEN OF US (been saved) they would NEVER HAVE LEFT (never left and stated this Christ thing is nonsense and they no longer believe it.

so in all cases stated above, number 1 would be null and void.

When interpreting scripture, we need to look at ALL cases of possible interpretation and see which one fits do we not?



This is quite true, if one can not renew their repentance, they can not renew their salvation.



In other words, they have become anti-christ, see the apostle john and what he says about them. so I do not think this fits. for John said they never fell away, they were never of us, so they had nothing to fall away from.

Thus we are left to reconsider what paul meant since this can not be it. Saying one can fall away because of sin means what? It means that the penalty of the sin was not paid for. So what must be done to allow repentance of the sin which caused them to "fall away in the first place" There are only two options, if you under law. Animal sacrifice. If you under Christ, He must return to die for the sin which caused the falling away, because his death was not sufficient to pay for that sin and allow forgiveness. THIS is what PUTS CHRIST TO OPEN SHAME. They say HIS DEATH WAS INSUFFICIENT.

And this is not just in this case, Anyone who says we can lose something that God gave based on HIS promise, and HIS sacrifice, says his death was not sufficient, he needs our help, eithe rby working of our own power to be good, obeying a set of rules and regulations, and doing a set of religious traditions. If we help Christ out in these area he will save us, Christ needs out help, He said "it is finished" but he did not mean it.




No problem. I pray my response to your response has shown you a different view, and why I believe the way I do.

again my main point, If you reject the blood, you reject Christ, you are thus an Anti-Christ. The apostle john said they did not fall away, they were never of us, so they had nothing to fall away from. We MUST take scripture as a whole, it can not contradict itself in any area, if it does, it is fallible, and should not be trusted.

Thank you for the discussion. You have been very polite and respectfull. May God bless you in your studies.

 

[Red33]

Anyone, no matter what their profession is concerning Christ, if they ascribe and teach that the unmerited favour of God's salvation can be lost or forfeited after having received that salvation by grace through faith, which includes the life of God's eternal redemption, the forgiveness and cleansing of all sin through the blood of Christ or through faith in the meritorious work of Jesus Christ, is teaching doctrine that is anti-Christ, anti-the work of Christ, anti-the cross, anti- the blood of Christ, anti-faith, anti-grace and anti-the revelation of the Spirit of truth to the heart of man who has believed upon the Son.

 

[Deadtosin]

5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


and what is Paul talking about here?

1 Corinthians 9:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Matthew 24:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


^^ this doesn't seem like a free ride.
2 Peter 2:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


worse than the beginning? but before that they weren't saved... :/


"to believe in Jesus is a choice of free will, with that we can also CHOOSE not to believe." if He is truly our Master we would follow Him. Thus it is written they will be known by their fruits.


Revelation 3:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.





the bible is absolutely riddled with texts regarding holding fast, keeping your first estate, staying vigilant and being ready for Jesus to come back at any time lest we aren't found ready. This is biblical. God bless you all.


P.S. It is true nothing can "pluck" you out of Gods hands. But you can absolutely CHOOSE to leave your inheritance behind.

 

[Crossfire]

Anyone, no matter what their profession is concerning Christ, if they ascribe and teach that the unmerited favour of God's salvation can be lost or forfeited after having received that salvation by grace through faith, which includes the life of God's eternal redemption, the forgiveness and cleansing of all sin through the blood of Christ or through faith in the meritorious work of Jesus Christ, is teaching doctrine that is anti-Christ, anti-the work of Christ, anti-the cross, anti- the blood of Christ, anti-faith, anti-grace and anti-the revelation of the Spirit of truth to the heart of man who has believed upon the Son.

Are you insisting that if a person does not believe in Once Saved Always Saved, those people are not saved? It sure sounds like it.

Seeing as I know for a fact that there is not one scripture in the bible that supports the above sentiment, one would assume that the above comment was made out of denominational pride.

 

[Crossfire]

While salvation can not be lost, it can be willingly forfeited. While it's true that God does not command from us something that He himself is willing to bestow upon us, God fully expects us to love like Jesus loved and to live like Jesus lived because, once saved, God has given us His Spirit, the same Spirit and nature that dwelt in Christ.

So many today teach and preach the unconditional love of God and it is true however, they fail to comprehend that because God loves us so much that He has given us a portion of Himself to empower us to love others just as He loves us. Scripture states that we are to be Holy just as our God is Holy and to be perfect just as God our God perfect. He's not asking anything from us that He Himself has not already provided for (ie. the divine nature).

How is salvation forfeited? When we willingly refuse to follow the leading Holy Spirit. Our sin grieves Him due to the fact that He has provided everything necessary to overcome our sinful tendencies when we place our complete trust in the Word of God and are willing to surrender fully to His will. Unwillingness to surrender to His will, refusing to humble yourself and repent when the Holy Spirit is calling out to you to do so, that what it means to forfeit your salvation. Keep in mind that this doesn't happen over night or after a single or handful of willing sins. However, the Bible clearly describes in Romans 1 how the Lord is willing to turn one over to a "reprobate" mind (a lost state) if they absolutely refuse to humble themselves.

 

[A-Omega]

not everyone who cries "Lord, Lord" will be saved.


Matthew 25

King James Version (KJV)



25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The foolish virgins were never saved to begin with.

 

[tribesman]

Nonono, that is not what I am saying.
But what about the tale about the sower, are the people who accept the word, but are later "strangled" never saved then? I mean, if you believe you are saved, but they can still choose to walk away from God. He will not force Himself upon anyone.

There are four types of soil in the parable, the hard ground on the pathway, the shallow soil on the rock, the soil among the thorns, and then the good soil. It is easy to point out that the good soil which produced fruit can be said to be the elect of God, true christians that bear fruit. The other soils did not produce fruit because they were not fit or genuine. The seed, which is the Word of God, is cast out upon all kinds of soil, meaning that the gospel goes out to "all men", but only the elect are saved.

 

[Deadtosin]

The foolish virgins were never saved to begin with.

they sure thought they were.

 

[A-Omega]

they sure thought they were.

Precisely.

 

[Crossfire]

Precisely.

So what you're saying is that there's a chance that, even though you think you are saved, you might not be?

 

[A-Omega]

So what you're saying is that there's a chance that, even though you think you are saved, you might not be?

No, I am not saying there's a chance, I'm saying it's a Biblical fact (as Jesus The Lord told us). Many people today are in this very unfortunate category.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My reply is above

1. Saying one can give it back does a few things.

1. It says God did not know their true heart and waqs not omniscient, and he gave a gift to someone he knew was going to throw it back in his face (What you are saying is when someone gets saved God takes away their free will, and you have no choice but to remain saved, and he forces you to keep the gift you have been giving)

This is not true in the least, your twisting things around. God never removed free will, he refused to save them by their free will because he knew their true heart. And he knew their faith was not real. because real faith will never fall away. How can you stand there and tell me someone who understand true grace, what they have been saved from, and why, and think they would ever turn from that? The only people that would are people who have truly not repented because they do not understand who they are as an unbeliever.

2. It says God is a liar when he says even when we are faithless, he is faithfull. (This remains true, God is still faithful to his Word even if we are faithless, which means if you dont have faith, he will allow you to go to hell just like his Word says)

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So lets throw John out the door; John is a liar.

18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [d]it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20 [e]But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and [f]because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the [g]Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.


So, if you can read this, and see how plainly John makes it, that


1. Whoever denys Christ is an antiChrist.
2. That many of them have left, but they were never really of us (saved) if they were they never would have left
3. Warning them, If what they heard from the beginning (the gospel) really abided in them (it might not, they might also be like these people who already left) you will leave also. But if it does truly abide in you, You will also abide in the father


Now take the passage you want to use, and make it NOT contradict this passage. Or interpret that passage to fit with 1 John, and understand what he was saying, Many people claim to be in the church who are false Christians, Who have never truly received the word of truth, because they have not truly repented. It is these people, who are among us, who have tasted the truth, who later will leave, because the truth does NOT ABIDE IN THEM, and as John says, they will leave to PROVE they were NEVER OF US (saved)

3. it says God is a liar when he said he sealed us with his spirit, who is our guarantee until the day of redemption (ressurection) (As long as you continue in the faith and abandon your sinful lifestyles then you are sealed)[/QUOTE]

So we are under law and not grace, thanks for the info.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[a] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


1. we were sealed the MOMENT WE BELIEVED.
2. We are sealed, and this seal is our guarantee UNTIL THE REDEMTION DAY (ressurection)
3. No mention of any unless you do not do this.


thanks but I refuse to add to the word of God to make my faulty view come true. Paul left absolutely NO CONDITIONS on this sealing. if this seal can be broken, God lied, and paul lied.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

and I see you posted a verse which agrees with me. why would you do this? This verse says we can GRIEVE the HS in us, But it also says we were sealed by him until the day of redemption. Grieving someone does not make them leave, did you parents leave you when you upset them and caused them to grieve? Wow. you make God out as worst than your parents who would leave you every time you screwed up!

4. it says God is a liar when he said what he gave us (life) is eternal, when it is actually comditional (what ever condition one places on it, even the condition of not giving it back would be a condition) (It is conditional)

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth(a condition) in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 6, It is the work of God that you believe in the one he sent, faith is not our work, it is the work of God.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.(a condition)

If you want to enter in this way, you have to be 100 % obedient to ALL of gods commands from birth to death, this is the point Jesus was trying to make. If you want to get right with God by the law, you will fail

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments (a condition), ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Abiding in love, and abiding in his son is not the same, We can grieve the HS and prevent him from blessing us out of his love, and instead cause him to chasten those of us who are his. None of these verses you are posting are salvic in nature. You love to pick and chose don;t you?

I can go and and on and on...( So could I, but I wont because its becoming fruitless)

Yes it is fruitless. And I worry for your soul, because your trusting yourself, and not the work of Christ in your salvation. You think you can be rightoeus and good and earn your salvation. You have not seen yourself under the eyes of a righteous judge God is and seen your true self, You still think you are right.

Your like the one who stands on the street corner praising God your not a sinner like those sinners out there./ While those who truely see God and their debt to him get on their knees begging For gods mercy.

I think we know who will get mercy, and who will be condemned because their pride refused to allow them to see themselves as they realy are.